Do you pass the Israel Test?

Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 8 months ago to Philosophy
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The test is simple: how do you view what Objectivists would call "Producers"?

SOURCE URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfN2IvnIA4M#t=10


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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
    Follow the money. This is a Jewish infomercial.
    Provided the capital? By creating it from nothing with little capital of their own.
    While I admire producers who achieve things using their own abilities I don't admire this whitewashed advertisment that not only ignores but actually praises a group that uses guilt, religious manipulation, and bribery of government 'public servants' to gain advantage.
    How would the ingenious producers in Israel have fared without funding from the US government, donations from hundreds of thousands of American Jews (made to feel guilty by propaganda), and manipulation of money and credit by banksters?
    While I applaud ingenuity and individual brilliance, I despise unfair advantages handed out by the state that steal from some to benefit others.
    Are some Jews brilliant? Yes, praise them, but don't belittle the true achievements with this propaganda.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
      "actually praises a group that uses guilt, religious manipulation, and bribery of government 'public servants' to gain advantage."

      Please provide some backup, as that is a fairly inflammatory claim.

      I've worked with a couple of tech organizations (one makes high-capacity digital presses for HP, the other a programming environment) based in Tel Aviv, and they were sharp people. They built their companies from the ground up and were offering excellent products and services to customers all around the globe. Those who chose to invest in them gained back a healthy return.

      And I would point out that the US bankrolls all kinds of governments and organizations around the world. Look what that has gotten countries in Africa like Liberia, Sierra Leone, Eritrea and others. We give millions in food aid to North Korea every year. We give millions to the Palestinians, who use it to wage war against the Israelis. We give billions to the UN, and what do we get from that?

      At least with the money going to the Israelis, it isn't being utterly wasted.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
      Freedom, the video specifically focuses on the history of Israel 's formation through 1921. and then a period of intense growth to 1947 and their war. Israel received its first foreign aid in 1948 from the US. We can argue about all the foreign aid the US gives to other countries and the lobbying, cronyism etc. But you cannot overlook the benefits to the US in their military aid. It is the only stable democracy in the region. Whatever the reason for private funding, it is just that -private. So why should we care how individuals invest? The banksters manipulate everywhere -Isreal holds no special place at that table. The fact is -the aid has not only benefitted jewish people but millions of arabs as well or why would they have flocked to the region and settled? I don 't deny Israel has had a heavy hand with the Gaza settlers but they are unstable and a constant threat. There are consequences for that kind of neighborliness.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
        Is the religious propaganda that convinces people to give private money to Israel somehow immune to critcism? Imo, the defenders of Israel have repeatedly used the race card against many who have been critical regardless of the source or validity of the criticism. To one who believes in reason over emotion it does matter why people give private funding. I bear no animosity against Jews as individuals or as producers, but the video is political propaganda. It exaggerates elements that support its objective and ignores other elements that would give viewers a more truthful and fairer picture. It is another example of why it does matter how people are manipulated to provide private funding.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
          absolutely one can be critical of why-but a jewish guilt trip is no worse than a christian tithing for instance. BUt there was nothing religious in the quick video. and so I am responding to your comments that Israel exists because of US money. I'm not completely disagreeing, but I did think the video made a good point. People swarmed to the area in a typical "build that and they will come" fashion. I do think there are definite propaganda statements there. It's part of war. They want US individuals to support their cause. It's tough looking at a burning Gaza and not think poor little Hamas.
          But honestly, perhaps you have lots more information than I do (about the banksters for instance), you've lived around the world, I find it curious that you're worked up about this video over groups and religions whose goals are to destroy jews and christians. Once Hamas is crushed, Al Q is right behind them, and then the Muslim Brotherhood, then Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Qtar...on and on....
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
          I would urge caution in the use of the word propaganda, because the intimation is that the messages being used are directly manipulative and dishonest. I do not deny the motivations had a strong element of emotional appeal, but to claim manipulation, you have to prove intent to deceive. When one is getting a good ROI, that is a pretty tall order, indeed. In order to prove your assertion, you have to prove that the majority of Israeli ventures did not deliver the ROI they promised.

          I would also ask this: what other point of view would you present, and how would you keep it strictly free from bias and propaganda yourself?
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          • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
            From the wiki:
            "Propaganda is information that is not impartial and used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or using loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. Propaganda can be used as a form of ideological or commercial warfare."
            also:
            "Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist."
            The purpose of the video IS deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response, in my opinion.
            Propaganda should contain elements of truth in it to be convincing.
            In my opinion this video is political propaganda.
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            • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
              You are welcome to your opinion, but again, what "fairer" point of view are you espousing? And do you deny the empirical evidence presented just because you find it to be "propaganda"?

              Whether you know it or not, you have actually answered The Israel Test.
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              • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 8 months ago
                Yes, the very name of this demonstrates manipulation.
                If you don't agree you "fail" the test.
                It isn't a test at all; it's an opinion.
                Gilder did not have to choose Israel as an example of productivity or Arabs as a supposed example of envy, there are other examples to prove his supposed point. But that wasn't his real point.

                Again, I respect people for their genius and hard work regardless of their religion, race, or gender.
                I resent those who attempt to manipulate whether by commission or omission.
                I am disgusted by those who manipulate the system of government to obtain advantages over competitors.

                Blarman, with all due respect, your concluding comment is nothing but an insult with no rational basis whatsoever. C'mon, disagree politely.
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                • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
                  The test is whether or not someone else's success spurs admiration or envy in the individual. Does one aspire to be like Steve Jobs or take the role of the President saying "you didn't build that"? That is the test.

                  The example given was to use the treatment of the Israelis in such a context. Evidence was cited to compare and contrast what had been done by two constituent peoples with the same plot of land yet different ideologies to establish not only that success (by the Israelis) had been achieved, but then to use this as a gauge for application of the test as an example of proof of validity.

                  You chose not to question the premise of the test but the example - a completely valid debating technique. However, you failed to follow up with any kind of evidence to support your assertion that the example is flawed. Without such, your refutation of the example falls significantly short of sufficient support for your position.

                  In your first post, you made very specific and inflammatory accusations regarding the Israeli people. When I followed up asking what evidence you had for your claims, you diverged into claiming that the whole video was propaganda and prima faciae denied the premises of the video itself - again, citing nothing more than your opinion. You are welcome to your opinion, but please recognize that when you initiate such a conversation with openly hostile or inflammatory statements made without follow-up evidence, you will be challenged to either provide such evidence or retract your statements. If you can not back them up, those statement become ad hominem attacks - the very test posited in the video.
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