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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 9 months ago
    It has been going on forever.
    Remember Galileo?
    In 1632 the Church condemned Galileo Galilei for his belief that the earth revolved around the sun and it wasn't lifted for over 400 years, long after he was shown to be correct.
    Maybe by 2400 the global warming deniers will be able to be published again.

    For more on the corrupt practices in the science (and media) community read, "Kicking the Sacred Cow" by James Hogan.
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    • -5
      Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
      You do not know your science. history, or Catholic Church. When you think that anyone PROVED that the Earth revolves around the sun? (Bessell 1838) When you think that anyone PROVED that the Earth rotates on its axis? (Foucault 1851). The Church lifted the ban in _1822_, when technically this all was still just theory...

      "It is the great merit of Galileo that, happily combining experiment with calculation, he opposed the prevailing system according to which, instead of going directly to nature for investigation of her laws and processes, it was held that these were best learned by authority, especially by that of Aristotle, who was supposed to have spoken the last word upon all such matters, and upon whom many erroneous conclusions had been fathered in the course of time. Against such a superstition Galileo resolutely and vehemently set himself, with the result that he not only soon discredited many beliefs which had hitherto been accepted as indisputable..." -- THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA.

      As for all the rest, read the actual ecclesiastic judgments of the New Advent Catholic Enyclopedia articles about Galileo here:
      http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.h...
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      • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
        Hey, Mike, if you are going to respond to people my threads, I would request that you try a persuasion tactic other than attacking them as stupid.

        When you do it to me, I don't give a damn, I'll just point you down.
        When you do it to people who post to my threads, then I take notice.

        Your points might be correct, but nobody is going to listen when you start off the conversation with the wordsome equivalent of, "Hey, idiot!"

        Just sayin'.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
        1822-lifted the ban on reading Galileo. Not pardoned until 1992. Formally apologized to by the Pope in 2000.
        Science always starts somewhere, and scientists continue to add proof to theories all the time. I did not see freedomforall making the claim that Galileo proved the Earth revolved around the sun-but his theories were powerful and certainly influenced Bessell and Foucault as well as countless other discoverers
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      • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 9 months ago
        In Galileo's time, the church basically said that people were not allowed to THINK about the bible in any way that was different than the church said, regardless of any scientific evidence. Basically the essence is a 'threat to the scientific method', which is the topic of this discussion.

        There are a lot of political (i.e., power) issues that have threatened the scientific method for centuries.
        Some info here indictates that the leaders of the church were still waffling in the 1990s on their dealing with Galileo :
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_aff...
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
        1st of all the catholic encyclopedia is hardly the bible and hardly unbiased. The catholic church threaten to kill Galileo and only pardoned him within the last couple of decades.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
    "If we can no longer trust science, what do we have as the basis for knowledge?"
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    • -4
      Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
      You always trust your own experience and reason. You want to open up _Scientific American_ (or _Nature_ or _Science_) and just accept what you read. The problems with Nature and Science have been known and publicized for over twenty years. It is like corruption in the NYPD: big targets; big payouts; big scandals. We still have police. Do you want to do without them (in any form)? People are fallible. Thus, science is self-correcting with these very kinds of reviews. It is as if you see a policeman giving a traffic ticket and then run in circles because people are speeding. Yeah... that's why we have cops... And science polices itself most especially in a society where science is important. American adults LEAD THE WORLD in scientific knowledge -- not my much; and no one does well; but here we are.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
        the claim here is the policing in science especially in the area of climate change/environmental science has been rather lax. How else do we explain the fact that so many environmental/climate scientists are in the global warming camp? and all the data tampering...to what end or goal is served other than maybe some fame and transition into the mega billions of dollars false industry based on bad pseudo-science or just straight good ol time religion. I think the article makes reasonable claims and is not over the top by any means.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
          If, as you say, "the article makes reasonable claims" then you agree that the fact that the _Journal of Vibration and Control_ retracted 60 papers after an audit evidences that science is self-correcting. That same claim is make by Daniele Fanelli, who is also cited in this article for uncovering false positives. If you goto Fanelli's website, you will find this new publication:
          Fanelli D (2014) Publishing: rise in retractions is a signal of integrity. Nature - doi:10.1038/509033a
          which rehashed this publication:
          Fanelli D (2013) Why growing retractions are (mostly) a good sign. PLoS Medicine - DOI: 10.1371/journal.pmed.1001563

          My problem here, k, is that Town Hall caters to people who want to believe what they read there. Once you start to dig for facts, you find the truth, even as presented, is somewhat more complicated.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
        Mike Marotta makes a very correct point about the review process. It is FAR from perfect. In fact, many journals even ask authors to recommend reviewers. How many authors do you think will recommend someone vehemently opposed to one's work?

        Moreover, as Adlai Stevenson, the failed presidential candidate correctly observed, "We Americans are suckers for good news". I read this yesterday within "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    I read "Why Most Published Researched Findings are False" by John P. A. Ioannidis, cited in this article. The best that can be said is that it is a moral warning in the tradition of Richard Feynman's "Cargo Cult Science." Overall, stripped of its arithmetical cloak, it is what we learned in my undergraduate class in research methods for social science. Granted all of that, the paper also contains a lot of puffery. Some of the sniping lies behind a duck blind made from the judicious use of colloquialism such as "a lot". I can understand the attraction for the article based on its title. Again, its best advice is in an old tradition. But once you start to examine it, the paper delivers much less than it promises.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    According to this article from Town Hall: "University of Montreal’s Danielle Fanelli has written several comprehensive reviews of the content of published science and he found, in the last twenty years, that the number of “positive” results is increasing dramatically." Indeed, you can find his website here: http://danielefanelli.com/contact.html (Just to note that with one L, Danny boy is indeed a boy. Normally, the typographical error would not merit mention, but here in the Gulch, gender identity seems to be consequential.)

    Fanelli collaborated with Ioannidis on two papers:
    Fanelli D & JPA Ioannidis (2014) Re-analyses actually confirm that US studies may overestimate effect sizes in softer research. PNAS - DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1322565111
    Fanelli D & JPA Ioannidis (2013) US studies may overestimate effect sizes in softer research. PNAS - DOI:10.1073/pnas.1302997110

    I, too, have published the same research twice by tweaking it into a new article. It makes the bibliography bigger. That these two stalwarts also succumb to a venal sin is not entirely condemnatory.
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  • -4
    Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    Completing my MA in social science at Eastern Michigan University, I had a class in "Ethics in Physics." EMU's Marshall Thompsen has been a leader in this field for over 20 years. http://people.emich.edu/jthomsen/Ethics/...
    But everyone focuses on big name schools because most people only read headlines. As noted, "conservatives" react to fear. Seeking good news is not natural to them.

    In our class, we read PLASTIC FANTASTIC by Eugenie Samuel Reich about Jan Hendrick Schoen, and VOODOO SCIENCE (and other titles) by Dr. Robert L. Park. Schoen, in particular, is infamous for his gaming of _Nature_ and _Science_ (as well as Bell Labs and Lucent). But again, the revelation of a criminal does not condemn the public space in which he perpetrated.

    On my blog are reviews of books about bad science here:
    http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/2013/...

    I have another blog about research misconduct and fraud in police laboratories. That began as a talk to middle school students for a University of Michigan "Super Science Friday". See here:
    http://csiflint2011.blogspot.com/
    "From junk science and fraudulent laboratory results in courtrooms, to misconduct in scientific research, to fake experiments, and to plagiarism, the criminal science investigator ensures honesty within the halls of science and the halls of justice. The Office of Research Integrity of the US Department of Health and Human Services is the top of the CSI pyramid.

    Every research university has its own “institutional review board” to ensure that experiments conform to best practices. Students at all levels in all disciplines are bound by an equivalent code of honor.
    In the picture above, it would be easy to assume that the woman to our right, in blue, is the Guardian. But law enforcement often depends on the findings of scientists, technicians, and other professionals. Who, then, is the guardian? "

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    • 10
      Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      I want to respond thoughtfully to your post but when you do this:
      "As noted, "conservatives" react to fear. Seeking good news is not natural to them. "
      it makes me want to smack you instead. When you state that you take 45 minutes or longer to frame up your comments and then you insult people with no proof, I'd say, you choose your words for 45 minutes and insult without thinking
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      Actually, I would say progressives are the fear mongers: racism, glass ceilings, AGW, plastic bags, landfills, fracking, gas guzzlers, SUVs, urban sprawl, hate crimes, sustainability, bad businessmen, GMOs, vaccines, DDT, nuclear energy, pesticides, cow flatulence, sugar, synthetic sugar, salt, eggs, red meat, tobacco, species extinction, raw milk, bike helmets, firearms, new drugs, animal rights, exotic woods, rain forests, food additives, building codes, pc speech, consumer warnings, the unfair internet...this is kinda fun-I'll let others add to the list- while I go make a new tinfoil hat
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      As soon as science was government funding it starting being corrupted. Most universities are inherently opposed to reason and committed to more government To suggest that science has done a great job of policing itself would be absurd. All we need to do is look at the AWG nonsense. But also see the ozone hole, DDT, Nuclear power, economics, economic statistics, etc.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
      I am glad to see that you took an ethics class, Mike. I incorporate ethics into all of my classes.

      Institutional review boards can only do so much. The peer review process is supposed to identify research misconduct. As a reviewer, I often am reviewing papers that I know the general subject, but not all of what everyone in the field has done. Catching fraud is not an easy thing to do. I have seen where The Journal of the American Chemical Society asks, but does not require, its reviewers to attempt to replicate research results. That is a lot to ask.
      A chemist who was one of my old bosses said that he couldn't reproduce half of what was in the published literature. That is consistent with my experience, too. Research fraud is a serious problem.

      As for conservatives not seeking good news, until I read AS, I was overly optimistic. I am definitely personally conservative, although I would govern as a libertarian. I have always wanted to assume that everyone was of high moral character and good will, until they gave me cause to think otherwise.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
        That 50% of the papers in the JACS do get checked is laudable; and it underscores the strong ethos of science in chemistry. _The Same and Not the Same_ by Roald Hoffmann points out that chemists depend on the discoveries of others to build their own new work. Thus, they are always (often) checking each other's results. He allows that much else even in chemistry does not get that independent re-investigation; but again, at least it is very common in chemistry. That was how physicist Jan Hendrick Schoen was exposed. His chemical experiments in plastics and crystals could not be replicated by researchers who wanted to build on them.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
          What gives a journal its prestige is frequently the care of the reviewers. If someone gets a publication in a prestigious journal, people will read it, but more importantly there is a much higher probability of its authenticity. Academic fraud is a very serious problem that definitely is worse than it used to be.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
        Thanks, Jim. I had more than one ethics class: in addition to "Ethics in Physics" for my master's, I started with "Ethics for Criminal Justice" for my associate's. See my review of _4Es: Ethics, Engineering, Economics & Environment_ by John St. J. S. Buckeridge (Annandale NSW: The Federation Press, 2011). http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/2012/...
        Prof. Buckeridge teaches engineering ethics. He sent me an autographed copy of the book after mischance brought us together. (Story there; some other time.) I have given these problems serious professional development. It was on that basis that I found this article from Town Hall disappointing. I just read all of Ionnidi's paper cited there. I wonder who else did ... or felt they needed to...
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  • -6
    Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    As presented by The Federalist, this is spam. (Minus 1.) You should read Dr. Ionnidis's article for yourself, if you can. It is easy to find. I got my copy from THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...) The Public Library of Science is just one open source (open market, if you will) response to the very abuses that launched this kind of debate.

    If the moral panic of Town Hall were justified, Ionnidis would have been pushed off a tall building like an inconvenient banker. Instead, he teaches at Stanford.

    Town Hall's Patrick Michael blundered with this: "At a tier-one University, to publish the requisite number of papers for promotion in, say, the Environmental Sciences, probably requires a minimum of $2.5 million. That’s a lot of overhead for the Germanic Languages Department." I must ask: WHICH "tier-one university"? It is the kind of convenient truth that every reader wants to accept and so will without question. Furthermore, much can be said for the value in studying Germanic languages (among others) if you care about epistemology.

    Town Hall also cited a Guardian op-ed from Nobel Laureate Randy Scheckman. Again, these revelations are open to all. Nothing is being conspiratorially hidden. It is all part of the open debate that is the hallmark of science. You cannot encourage and demand audits and then complain when audits reveal problems. That is why we have them. Science demands audits. Thus, as noted "the Journal of Vibration and Control, retracted sixty papers, after an internal investigation revealed a fraudulent “peer review and citation process”..." The problem is not that these were retracted. That is proof of the validity of the process.

    Finally, I encourage to actually read the writings of Vannevar Bush. For us Objectivists, they do preview the disasters of the State Science Institute. However, all he said at the time was that everything should be funded (within broad "reason") because you never know where the next invention will come from. Nothing more. Nothing less. Again, we know the underlying problem, but it is a different one than this.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      First of all Mike, what is your point other than being nasty? Second of all as usual you are rambling on. Third of all you are wrong that nothing is being hidden. It has been shown over and over again that AWG prophets have gamed the system and lied.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      Mike,
      Patrick J. Michaels is the director of the Center for the Study of Science at the Cato Institute, Even I disagree with some CATO policy, but I would not suggest they are spammers. -1

      He cites three scientists and two studies in support of his claim the number of positively associated federally funded studies is at all time highs especially in the areas of climate change. Written by a remarkably small number of big academic names, whose research is being used to shape policy globally. Have you read the goals of the UNIPCC?! Myself, I have received NSF emails and calls for white papers (funding notices really) in climate change with specific hypotheses. Even in government science funding, dollars are considered scarce-so the larger your publishing CV, the more likely the dollars steer toward you. Scientists in climate change studies have been shown over and over to not only manipulate data but falsify data. Finally a big name gets caught out peer reviewing his own paper under an alias. At this particular publisher, due diligence won out-after a hue and cry came up to scrutinize their publication!

      You have taken several quotes out of context here-I'll focus on one.
      "At a tier-one University, to publish the requisite number of papers for promotion in, say, the Environmental Sciences, probably requires a minimum of $2.5 million. That’s a lot of overhead for the Germanic Languages Department."
      Science requires big bucks in laboratories and testing equipment and the like. Hardly the resources a specific language department needs in and of itself. ALL tier-one universities show investments like that for certain sciences in time and talent and equipment-this is hardly a specious claim.


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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
        And a reason that institutions like FIT and Hillsdale are rather small institutions, and likely to stay that way. While the state universities (I cite my own UW which has been on a building spree the past 6 years) never seem to be lacking in funds (in fact, nearly a billion dollars was recently "found" in various UW accounts - yet before this money was found they screamed that they needed to raise tuition every year).
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