My Vote Will Count More Than Yours This Year

Posted by Shrugger 11 years, 5 months ago to Politics
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If you are voting for either a republican or a democrat in this year's presidential election... your vote will not count as much as mine.

I'll explain why.

No matter who you or I vote for in this upcoming presidential election, the winner will be either a republican or a democrat. Nothing you or I do will change that. So voting for either a republican or a democrat will result in just more of the same.

I am voting Libertarian. My vote will count more than yours.

No... we won't have a Libertarian President after the dust settles... but...

If just 10% of the electorate voted Libertarian this election... the republicrats would have to sit up and take notice.

If just 10% of the electorate voted Libertarian, the mainstream media would be FORCED to pay attention to Libertarians.

If just 10% of the electorate voted Libertarian, many of our fellow citizens... Tea Partiers... Liberals... Conservatives... Greenies... would start to ask themselves... WHY??? Many would look into Libertarian political positions to see whether they might be a better alternative than is being offered today.

If just 10% of the electorate voted Libertarian... no... we wouldn't fix all the problems facing our country today... but we would be taking a giant step in the right direction.

Don't tell me that voting Libertarian is wasting my vote...

Voting republican or democrat is wasting your vote... because no matter which way you vote... the winner is already decided... we're going to have either a republican or a democrat in the White House... nothing will change that.

But MY vote will count for something this election.

Remember... voting for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.


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  • Posted by terrible_tim 11 years, 5 months ago
    You're right. Your vote will count for something. Your vote will count as a vote for Obama. You need to take a hard look at reality friend. You can hold on to the belief that your Libertarian vote is a real vote for change but in reality, your vote is only a vote for Socialism. Here's why - Libertarians and Conservatives are mostly on the same page regarding economics. Social issues and foreign policy not so much but, economics, yep. And what's this election about? It's about jobs and the economy. No one cares about social issues - social issues are just political tools - and no one pays attention to foreign policy.

    This election is about the ECONOMY.

    Obama LOVES Libertarians, Not their politics, just their mindset. HE LOVES YOU because he knows your Libertarian vote is a vote not for Romney. That's the reality of the situation.

    You vote for Johnson and that's +1 Obama.

    "You can avoid reality but you can not avoid the consequences of avoiding reality." - Ayn Rand

    And by the way, Ayn Rand was an advocate of CAPITALISM not Libertarianism.
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    • Posted by 11 years, 4 months ago
      Tim... Ayn Rand was an advocate of REASON... something your post is sorely lacking.

      First, saying that my vote for Johnson is a vote that will "count for Obama" is patently absurd. You are assuming that if I didn't vote for Johnson, I would vote for Romney. I would NEVER vote for Romney. His policies are almost as statist as Obama's.

      Likewise, your statement that a vote for a Libertarian is a vote for Socialism is silly at best, and just plain nonsense.

      My only choice is between abstaining my vote for Prez or voting for Johnson.

      Your mistaken belief that Libertarians and Conservatives are "mostly on the same page regarding economics" shows how little you know about the Libertarian Party and the libertarian (small L) movement. Politcians like Romney, Bush, Cheney etc. claim to be conservatives... and then they promote statist policies like massive mandatory health-care programs. Are you really naive enough to believe there is no difference between Libertarians and Conservatives in regards to economic issues?

      Next... this election is NOT just about the economy... it is about a way of life. We are either a free people or we are not. Your Conservative cronies might slow the rate of growth of government in the economy... but they will never actually SHRINK the scope and pervue of government... and they would invade my rights as an individual at least as much as the Dems.

      Next... Obama does not LOVE Libertarians. In fact, pay attention to what is happening in Colorado, where Johnson is appealing to traditional liberal Dems and threatening to push the state's electorate to Romney.

      No "friend"... my vote is a reasoned response to the circumstances of the day and is in keeping with my values. Your vote apparently reflects YOUR values.

      I suggest you read Atlas Shrugged again.
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  • Posted by BenjaminGrimm 11 years, 5 months ago
    I come here to find reason, not main stream media mush opinions. I'm disappointed in the members here who hold onto this "voting for Gary Johnson is helping Obama" tripe.

    Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan aren't the salvation from Obama. They are just more of the same.

    People like Ron Paul and Gary Johnson are the ones who could bring our country back and put it on top again. But it isn't going to happen until we open our eyes and take control. Shrugger is right: "voting for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil."

    Freedom and liberty mean owning the responsibilities to maintain them, not cowering under the boot of the majority. Those who admonish "looking at reality", to you I say this: We can change the way our country is ran. If every one of you who says "Libertarians are right, but they can't win" would vote Libertarian... they might win. Or at least as Shrugger is pointing out, "get noticed".

    For too long the American people have allowed themselves to be silenced and simply compromise with our politics and be forced into a two party system. It's time to stand up for what's right, not the popular choice.

    Do the research and make up your own mind. Find out exactly who Obama, Romney and Johnson are. Forget their politic party affiliations and look at what they believe in and stand for. Then make your own choice of who can run our country best.

    I will be voting for Gary Johnson this November 6th. Many of my friends and family members will be, also, because we want America back.
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    • Posted by 11 years, 4 months ago
      Thank you Ben. I was beginning to think I was alone here.

      I too am disappointed in what I have found here. I thought I would find true Objectivists and individuals rooted in reasoned thinking. Instead I'm finding short-term pragmatic arguments about solutions which will simply compound our problems.

      Those who advocate that we once again voice our support for something or someone we really don't believe in don't get it... and probably never will.

      Those of you who STILL believe that voting for the lesser of two evils is the right thing to do will have to live with your choice later. Your vote will NOT show up as a warning to the statists on both sides of the aisle... you will accomplish nothing.

      I, for one, will have a clear conscience. MY VOTE will be a clear message... no more of the status quo... I am an advocate for reason.

      "Who is the guiltiest man in the room?"

      Francisco was NOT talking about James Taggert.

      Think about it!
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 4 months ago
        I don't doubt for one second that everyone here (in the Gulch) will be voting with a clean conscience on Tuesday. I hope after all of the election dust settles, no matter who wins, that we will all continue to meet here and exchange ideas and opinions and plot a plan for the next election (if there is one). God Bless America! :)
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        • Posted by 11 years, 4 months ago
          LS... if your vote does not relfect your values, reason dictates that your conscience should not be clean. I am amazed that here... in "The Gulch" of all places, anyone would even attempt to argue otherwise.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 4 months ago
            You worry about your conscience and I'll take care of mine. As I've said before, I don't agree that Romney is the "lesser of two evils", but Obama IS the devil and he needs to go...my vote's mission is to boot him out sooooooo we can make sure of HAVING another election that we can haggle over (or not)...at which time I will hop on your 3rd party band wagon. Sometimes you have to clear the path before the real clean-up can get done. One step at a time. (I respect your opinion, and even agree to a certain point. Maybe the 3 of you-- you, Mooch, and Benj-- are all right and the rest of us are wrong, but I know that I have hashed this out in my head a million times and I keep coming back to where I am. We have common ground, which is how we all wound up here, but we are not carbon copies of each other and we will not always agree. And if we did how fricken boring would our discussions be? Something I was thinking about earlier, in regards to this topic... I'm hoping for a cleaner, smoother transition of smaller government (as it pertains to the masses and their dependency on a big gov), less regulation, etc etc....instead of a quick, pull the rug out from under the masses kind of a change because I see that as causing a complete uprising that would hurt us all on some level, which is how (I believe) a Ron Paul or Johnson would do it. Don't get me wrong...I'm not completely against an uprising, per se, but I'd rather have a smoother, more gradual change, IF possible. I have elderly parents and sons to consider. I know we will talk more about this after Tuesday and I look forward to it. :)
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    • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 11 years, 5 months ago
      The death of the two parties won't be at the end of an election cycle, but the beginning. If people stopped donating to either of the two major parties and attending their events (or conversely started donating to a third party and attending their events) then things would change.

      Voting in an election is a short term action. It's what you do the rest of the year that matters.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago
    There is a cover up going on in the White-house (Benghazi-Gate) and the main stream media is barely talking about it so I wouldn't count on them sitting up and taking notice (of "FORCED" to pay attention) if a Libertarian gets a few votes.
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    • Posted by 11 years, 5 months ago
      Unfortunately, I have to agree with you, in part. Using the word "FORCED" was not quite correct.

      I was probably thinking more about the secondary media market, rather than the main stream media, which I have all but forgotten about.

      If the Libertarian vote reached 10%, I believe that the secondary media sources (i.e. talk-radio, commentators, blogs, etc.), would need to sit up and take notice of libertarian values more if they wanted to remain responsive to their listeners/viewers/readers.

      In this, I am reminded of how certain conservative talk-radio hosts were eventually "cajoled" into interviewing Dr. Paul ONLY after his followers bombarded them with complaints for their lack of appropriate coverage on his campaign.
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago
        More people need to listen to talk radio. Period. And I'll say this one more time... Obama HAS to go...or there might not BE another election. Get B.O. out the door and I'll jump on your third party band wagon (provided foreign policy gets bumped up a bit).
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 5 months ago
    I think if we're hanging around the Gulch discussing voting for a Libertarian candidate for President, it is only fair to point that Ayn Rand diverged from libertarianism in many ways. The two that top my list.
    1) Intellectual Property i.e. patents. The ONLY right called out specifically in the Constitution. Libertarians (Cato-before the transfer of power) and Reason magazine show an appalling lack of understanding regarding patents and the Economy. Rand was staunchly for strong patent rights.
    2) Foreign Policy. She was strongly for intervention in the world with regards to terrorists and terrorist acts against the US.
    For me, these are two very good reasons to not want a Libertarian in the highest Office in the land. In fairness, Ron Paul does not side with the party on patents.
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    • Posted by Elliot 11 years, 5 months ago
      Rand believed in self-defense, but she was not a supporter of intervention, especially for altruistic purposes (i.e., nation-building). She wrote, "Which type of government is more likely to plunge a country into war: a government of limited powers, bound by constitutional restrictions - or an unlimited government, open to the pressure of any group with warlike interests or ideologies, a government able to command armies to march at the whim of a single chief executive?"

      She would later reiterate her support for self-defense, but she did NOT support interventionism, at least not in the way it's practiced today.

      And most libertarians do not oppose self-defense as a reason for military action. I'm not certain where that premise comes from.
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      • Posted by khalling 11 years, 5 months ago
        I disagree with your assessment. Rand was prescient on terrorism against the U.S. Oil aside, in part because I think that will take us down a rabbit hole here on this page, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq was NOT started as an altruistic intervention or nation-building. They were due to acts and serious threats on our sovereign land and our interests abroad. If conquered countries are rebuilt with sound Constitutions in place as described earlier, we should be out of there. Here is the atlas society's position on 9/11 written by Peikoff:

        http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=N...
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      • Posted by khalling 11 years, 5 months ago
        Show me where I'm wrong about Libertarian party's stance on our interests stop at our borders. It isn't reasonable to think that could ever be the case. Consider the Cold War. When someone can send an ICBM to reach us in 30 minutes, we have a vested interest in promoting Freedom throughout the World and we don't have to wait until someone has crossed our shores to cause us harm. That's hardly promoting altruism. This was part of the argument used by Jefferson in response to Barbary Coast pirates.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 5 months ago
    Greetings Shrugger,
    I have no right to tell anyone how to vote, but I would like to point out that your premise depends upon a lot of IFs. I respect anyone who adheres to principle, but be aware of the pragmatic consequences! For a third party candidate to be recognized by the MSM and be viable they will have to garner a third of the vote. We need a third party option, but it must be implemented and gaining enough traction to be viable long before election season. When a third party candidate gains sufficient traction and support to force the debate committee to include that third party candidate in the final debates then we will have viable options besides the Republicrats.
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by $ Blringer37 11 years, 5 months ago
    I live in a blue state. My vote for Romney won't achieve anything anyway, so I had already planned to vote for Gary Johnson. I much prefer him to Romney anyway.
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  • Posted by 11 years, 5 months ago
    Everyone Seems To Be Missing The Point

    I don't CARE who we elect as President of the United States.

    You are all in a fast-moving car heading toward a cliff. The driver has the gas pedal floored and is doing 90 miles an hour. You are all debating on replacing this driver with one who promises to slow down to 65 miles an hour, without actually changing direction.

    If you don't agree with that scenario, then I'm not directing this at you. We can debate the merits of the scenario (or lack thereof) elsewhere.

    If you agree with that scenario, and you do not wish to go over the cliff, you have only two choices:


    1). Get out of the car (i.e. go Galt, stock up on gold, food, fuel etc. or find another society better suited to your beliefs), or


    2). Convince a substantial number of the passengers in the car that you must change direction.


    Those of you still in the car who believe strongly in Reason, Liberty and individual rights need to focus your energies on educating your fellow passengers. The person driving matters little if most of the occupants are unaware of where they are heading and of what is in store for them up ahead. No matter who is driving, they will urge him to continue moving forward in the same direction. If he refuses, they will replace him with someone who will abide by their wishes.

    Of all potential contenders, I believe Ron Paul best reflects what I would consider the best choice of a driver... but... even if he had somehow managed to do the impossible... even if he was elected as our new "driver"... very little would change.

    Yes... for about 4 years he might slow the car down and buy more time... he might have even managed to turn the car to the right or left a bit soas to approach the cliff at a bit of an angle... but with most of the occupants in the car still believing there was no cliff on the horizon, even Dr. Paul would have found it impossible to turn us around... his best intentions notwithstanding.

    The truth is... the ONLY way to save our country is to educate a large number of our friends and neighbors on the evils of collectivism. A change in leadership will NOT do it. It would, in fact be counter-productive. Imagine a scenario with a Ron Paul-like President who was still ham-strung by a collectivist populace. He would try to reduce government spending and fail... and when the economy inevitibly continues to plunge... his Libertarian policies would be blamed.

    How do we educate our friends and neighbors? We can't and shouldn't try to force-feed them. They must become curious enough about the subject to inquire of their own accord. One way to increase their curiosity is let them see a dramatic increase in the results of a third-party in a federal election.

    At that point, many would become interested in learning about this third party... and SOME would agree with the basic Libertarian platform.

    Remember... the Libertarian Party is comprised of many individuals with diverse political and philosophical beliefs... just like the Dems and Repubs. No group of individuals will ever agree on everything. The Libertarian Party, I believe, comes closer than any other political party in
    espousing the beliefs of Objectivism. Ayn Rand disliked the Libertarianism of the past because many in the Libertarian movement at the time were actually Anarchists. That is no longer the case. While there are certainly some who still carry that mantle, the vast majority of Libertarians today are for LIMITED federal government... NOT for eliminating the federal government.

    Those of you who are still planning on voting for Republicans because you fear another four years of Obama are accomplishing nothing with your vote. Even if you win, you'll still end up going over the
    cliff, albeit maybe a bit slower. Most of you will be voting for someone who you don't believe in, just because you dislike the alternative even more.

    I, for one, do not care to compromise my principles for the expedient. I am already "out-of-the-car".

    Good luck to the rest of you.
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    • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 11 years, 5 months ago
      "Those of you who are still planning on voting for Republicans because you fear another four years of Obama are accomplishing nothing with your vote. Even if you win, you'll still end up going over the cliff, albeit maybe a bit slower."

      Couldn't they then be accomplishing the goal of slowing the rate of descent so that other techniques have more time to work?
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      • Posted by 11 years, 5 months ago
        What are the other techniques? Sign me up for them. I don't see anything on the horizon that gives me any hope that our friends and neighbors are becoming more aware of the dangers lurking ahead. If anything, they are being led further astray by observing the diminishing difference between the two major political parties. But I'm all for learning from others anything that might help educate others... ultimately jml, we're all on the same side here.
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        • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 11 years, 5 months ago
          I see four other main techniques:

          1. Living your life rationally and productively
          2. Talk to your friends when they have an open ear about ideas (not politics).
          3. Affect the education system.
          4. Affect the media.
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          • Posted by AKGuest 11 years, 5 months ago
            You are so right. But I want to add one. I think we also have to affect Culture/Entertainment. So many Americans nowadays have no interest in anything except entertainment and pop culture. But nearly all entertainment out there celebrates the opposite of the "ideas (not politics)" that will heal us. That is why movies like AS2 are so important. We need more and more entertainment vehicles to deliver these messages to the masses.It saddens me that we have to use these methods, that we can't just read flippin' books. But it is true.
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            • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 11 years, 5 months ago
              Agreed completely, but I consider the entertainment industry part of the media category. Culture is more abstract and is the combination/culmination of all of these elements.
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  • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 11 years, 5 months ago
    It's secondhanded to compare votes and say "my vote will count more than yours." Vote the way you think is best (or don't vote at all), but don't compare whether my, your, or anyone else's vote counts more.
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    • Posted by 11 years, 5 months ago
      Please jml... I know you didn't just call me a secondhander (LOL). Let's leave the name-calling for the moochers... we're all above that.
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      • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 11 years, 5 months ago
        I didn't say you were secondhanded. I said it's a secondhanded thought to compare votes. When I vote, I think of what the best vote is, not what everyone else is doing and if my vote will count more or less than theirs.
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  • Posted by XenokRoy 11 years, 5 months ago
    I disagree. We have been attempting to get 10% of the vote for years. It has not worked. Why do you think it will this time? Not only that if we did get 10% or 20% it would be one of the worst outcomes that could occur.

    Lets say we could regularly get 10% of the vote for Libertarian, lets even say 20%. Where is that vote going to come from? The hyper progressive democrats, or the less progressive republicans? What does that accomplish? It guarantees we get the most progressive big government guys in every federal office.

    The media would simply play up how heartless we are and how we do not care about the people. They would have evidence in the landslide victories of the Communists/Marxist/Fascist candidates. All the media would take note of is the grand victories for the socialist way of life and how capitalism dose not work.

    This is an unreasoned solution to the problem we face. If you vote for the libertarian you are not throwing your vote away, you are casting a vote for the worst scenario that could occur, unless the libertarian could actually win.
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