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  • Posted by net5000 9 years, 9 months ago
    My father was a navy meteorologist and later geologist. He always told me that man couldn't produce enough of anything to change mother nature. The systems at work are too dynamic and massive for man to have any impact. Nature recycles everything. More CO2 mean more vegetation will grow to compensate for volcanic activity, Faster ocean currents result in higher humidity which results in more snow and glaciers.
    All of this is an artificial crisis designed to be used by politicians to take more freedom away and control more. . .
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 9 months ago
    Climate change, (nee global warming): the left's latest religion substitute.
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
      THIS is so very, very true. Look at the language, the furor, the mindless devotion that mimics the absolute worse attitudes leftover from the communes from the 60's. Praise the skygod and pass the dubee bro.

      Now it's man caused global warming (or climate change now) that's the current excerpt from the "Earth as god" mindset where the Earth's warrior in politics - the EPA - takes on all who would violate "mother earth" while destroying any business or human effort as being a slight against their god.
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  • Posted by SolitudeIsBliss 9 years, 9 months ago
    Finally someone echoing what I've been saying for years. It's JUNK science. It's ALL hypothetical with no basis in fact People have brains, they should try & use them instead of letting others do the thinking for them.
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    • Posted by Solver 9 years, 9 months ago
      Makes you wonder how much higher the official unemployment rate would be if these “scientists” and support staffs were all unemployed? Also how much more productivity would we gain from this?
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      • Posted by XenokRoy 9 years, 9 months ago
        It makes me wonder what wonderful inventions we are missing because of the great minds that are being wasted on junk science. If it were essential to there survival to find something useful to build, develop, sell and earn their daily bread with what wonderful things would exist or be understood that are not today?
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        • Posted by Solver 9 years, 9 months ago
          You have hit on one of my greatest “social regrets”, for a world that could have been if not for the numerous costly, destructive, time wasting collectivist mumbo-jumbo setbacks.
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          • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
            Can you say "windmill farms"??? If you only had a glimmer of what I know about it. I don't have time to lay it all out, but a friend headed a construction crew doing part of the installation of these across country. All purchased through GE, and who ran GE - right up to being tapped by BO as one of his czars??? Follow that by checking on the contracts that were let out as $2 trillion in stimulus money was given to shovel ready projects - GE again??? And after tens of millions were spent on each wind farm (that can only "run" 35% of the time) how many of these are "hooked" to the grid and pumping out KW??? Hint, very, very few. The problem is that the grid lacks the capacity to add the farms to it, for the most part. The actual payback from a wind farm is 15 years! IF they ran 100% of the time which they can't.

            I could drive 1 hour in any direction and show you a number of wind farms that were granted accelerated construction permits based on essential need, a process that takes 5 years to reach the point of beginning construction was accelerated to 1 year - in one nearby case 6 months. But of the 6 nearest "farms", only 1 is hooked into the grid. The rest are in idle mode and are turning just to keep things operational.

            Check the ones near yourself. The large switching station where the farm hooks to the grid is very noticeable. Look for a set of high tension lines, high voltage bars, insulators all fenced to keep people out. You'll see them "If" they are there. But don't be surprised if you don't find any - it seems that the stimulus money paid for the "farm" but NOT the grid you need to make it useful.

            So you might ask, why can't we get these tied in where they might do some good? In the case of the farms around Illinois, the expansion is tied up trying to get the required Environmental Impact studies passed.

            In the meantime the windmills go around and around - and the eco-nuts tell us we are the ones "killing the planet". I wonder how much pollution was generated to make and erect each of those windmill farms where nothing green grows anymore?
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  • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
    I guess I'm struggling to find the relevance of an astronaut from the 50's & 60's that used to be a fighter pilot and has a college degree (if even science-based at that), from the 40's...

    Until around the 1990's.. the most common educational background for a fighter pilot was art history... the GPA was competitive, but the content of the GPA didn't matter.

    From a practical point of view the effects of climate change are pretty undeniable... what the causes are, etc., are the source of debate, but the effects are real and here. Tried drilling a well lately in the west? You used to go to about 40 feet and hit water, now with the extreme over-pumping of ground water because of growing population, the Central Valley of California has both "sank" about 6 feet below where it used to be, and you have drill several hundred feet to reach water. In northern Arizona, it can be a long way down there...

    Each coal-fired power plant will consume 150 to 200 rail cars of coal PER DAY to operate at a standard-candle of 1000 MW. There isn't much residue, so we are throwing at least 150 rail cars per day into the atmosphere per power plant... there are thousands of power plants... does that have "zero" effect? Of course not. Does that do a major effect? I don't know. Neither does anyone here. Do we see gases and pollution building up in the atmosphere? Yes we do. We can measure that with certainty.

    In the US with our Clean Water & Clean Air acts... you don't see it as much... go to China and take a look, it is incredible what unrestricted burning of coal has done to their environment. Just google some images of Beijing... not much of that is "fog"... fog isn't black or brown, and it doesn't linger well into the late afternoon / evening / night either...

    A build-up of sea ice in Antarctica is expected with less salinity in the ocean. You can do this experiment yourself, and it's a handy trick for super-chilling a can of soda. Take 2 mixing bowls, put cold water in each, add about 2 tablespoons of regular old salt to one of them, put ice in both, and throw a can of soda in both. Check it in about 10 or 15 minutes. The one with salt will be much colder, below 32 degrees if the tap water is cold enough to start with. Salt water has a lower freezing point than freshwater. If you take the southern ocean, temperatures being the same, say 30-32 degrees of ocean temp, higher levels of salt in the water will prevent ice build-up. Lower the salinity to be more fresh water, and more surface ice will form. That is what we are seeing right now. Here's the trick with the soda can, when its fully chilled, take the can out of the salt-water bath, and you will see the outside of the can instantly turn frosty and be a much-colder refreshing drink than you can do otherwise. I do this all the time when I'm hosting parties, works great for bottles of beer.

    In California, we used to have "droughts" and "fire seasons" when I was younger. Now, drought is just the new norm, the lakes and reservoirs are about 200 feet below the water levels they used to have - at Folsom Lake where I live, we walk down to the beach, then walk about a mile across the sand to get to where the water is now. "Fire season" is just year-round, we don't have part-time wildfire fighting anymore. I'm in favor of more logging to clean out the dead-stand, but you also introduce more fire risk with more people in the wild areas (cutting trees).

    Oklahoma had over 200 earthquakes this year, and is probably caused by hydraulic fracturing of the bedrock to get at the oil remaining. We can probably expect to see this everywhere. Does it hurt anything, doubtful, but we are having an impact on our environment that we don't really understand, for sure.

    Is there really anything wrong with exploring new sources of energy? I have a Chevy Volt EV because I wanted one, drives awesome, and is the second-highest customer satisfaction on record for a car (Tesla is #1.). Electric cars simply drive better, perform better, and don't have a tailpipe. The "battery argument" is non-sense, they are recyclable and getting much better each year. You don't "get there" all at once, you refine technology in evolutions, we have to start somewhere. I also have a solar system on the house, I financed it for zero down, and "locked in" my electric cost for the next 20 years at about half-monthly what I was paying to a utility company. There is a perceivable upside there. Can you accommodate base-load requirements of an industrialized society with renewables? no, not really, the physics and the math doesn't support it. Not enough density (or reliability) in wind, ocean tidal stuff is just weird and inefficient, and solar's only advantage is that it produces a lot of power for cheap when you need it the most - high noon on a hot day, but it does nothing at night and pretty unrealistic financially in the midwest or areas that tend to be stormy or cloudy. Hydro is great, but most of it is in the west, and we're running out of water...

    Our only option is nuclear power for base-load generation, and we can power 5 cities the size of San Francisco with very little or no waste on about 6 ounces of fuel for a month.

    Where you lack water and resources, conflict inevitably erupts. If we take our immigration problems with the Mexican border, add something like 50% less water in the region and another 40 million or so people, we're going to have real problems in the southwest...insurrection, etc.

    I'm an advocate of "sustainability", but defining that as probably something like an "all of the above" strategy to start fixing the effects of global warming (which I really call the over-extraction of natural resources). Desperation drives conflict, and we're starting to see the beginnings of that around the globe.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
      "I'm an advocate of "sustainability", but defining that as probably something like an "all of the above" strategy to start fixing the effects of global warming (which I really call the over-extraction of natural resources). "
      Just because burning stuff causes global warming, at least according the preponderance of the scientific evidence, it does not mean that it's impossible to extract and use the resources in way that doesn't cause environmental damage.
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      • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
        That's true. That's my argument. I'm saying that we have pretty good technologies right now that can reduce the effects, get rid of health problems people have, etc. The same argument used to be made that smoking a cigarette didn't harm anything. Really? How's that working now...
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
      scojohnson - If I understood your assertion concerning "The Astronaut's" ability to correctly derive correct assumption's concerning climate change, you seem to access his ability based on the age of his degree from the 40's and his period of active work in the engineering and scientific community from the 50's to the 70's. It seems to me that after devaluating his education and life experience by his advanced age, you pause just long enough to sum the results as "decrepit old fool".

      Following this withering piece of scientific analysis you then take the scientific data, analysis, and life experience, evaluate it with the foregone conclusion "has been", and substitute it with a few Science 101 class demonstrations which are supposed to dazzle us. You missed the mark.

      You next make the pronouncement that EVERY single eco-wank makes - the effects of climate change are pretty undeniable. Really?? I'll deny them. Pretty much the math works like this - I deny them, you proclaim them, cross yourself as you fall prostrate and the result is that we pretty much cancel one another out. You are left with a zero. But. lets move on, just for the fun of it, shall we?

      Next you make a truly astonishing conclusion that in a coal fired plant that burns 150-200 boxcars of coal a day and as it consumes this proposed 150 boxcars a day, then 150 boxcars a day migrate up it's exhaust stack. In reality nowhere near that amount WASTE byproducts escape the plant due to a large number of scrubber and exhaust filters similar to the catalytic converter on most folks car. Also, don't forget that the coal is burned, it changes mass for energy. The resultant is much, much smaller. And just as the exhaust on most cars is much cleaner than in years past, coal fired power plants exhaust byproducts are a fraction of what they once were. While this is still a certain amount, it is small compared to that found in most of the world and much better than that found in China and other countries that refuse to reach our standards - they prefer to be profitable. No matter how much cleaner we try to make our plants, we will never be able to make up for the excesses of China and all the third world.

      I was truly surprised with the jump to the melt that is ongoing in the Antarctica, few on your side will. I'm certain you are wondering why and the answer is thankfully short and plainly oblivious to anyone who will accept the data.

      In 1991 Mt Pinatubo erupted with what is commonly recognized as the second most powerful eruption in the 1900's. The ejecta was so massive that the total amount cannot be accurately estimated, but land around the volcano was buried as much as 18-20 feet fro twenty miles. There were 15-30 million tons of sulfur dioxide gas ejected as the plume rose to 31Km (21 miles). Over 90% of the material released from the volcano was ejected during the 9hr eruption of June 15th.

      The result of this eruption and huge ejection of "Greenhouse Gases" over such a short period resulted in "unprecedented growth in the Antarctica Ozone hole. It grew to a size never seen before.

      Now, all this seems to be ligning up with everything the Eco-ologists are telling us will happen as "Greenhouse Gases" grow due to man caused global warming. BUT, that's not what happened.

      The cloud over the earth reduced global temperatures. In 1992 and 1993, the average temperature in the Northern Hemisphere was reduced 0.5 to 0.6°C and the entire planet was cooled 0.4 to 0.5°C. The maximum reduction in global temperature occurred in August 1992 with a reduction of 0.73°C. The eruption is believed to have influenced such events as 1993 floods along the Mississippi river and the drought in the Sahel region of Africa. The United States experienced its third coldest and third wettest summer in 77 years during 1992.

      Overall, the cooling effects of the Mount Pinatubo eruption were greater than those of the El Niño that was taking place at the time or of the greenhouse gas warming of the planet. Remarkable sunrises and sunsets were visible around the globe in the years following the Mount Pinatubo eruption. http://geography.about.com/od/globalprob...

      I frankly do not have a clue about the number of boxcars of ash Mt. Pinatubo left behind, but it was a lot. So much so that the southern hemisphere is STILL recovering from it's effects. The deposit of ash on the ice of Antarctica has resulted in increased ice temps and more aggressive melts, but they are due to one nine hour period in June 15th 1991, not due to the power plant that supplies my electricity.

      I'm very happy you like your volt, have fun with it. Save all the diesel fuel for me you can. When I fire up my 2013 9800lb 1 ton dually truck with a turbo charged diesel motor that makes 650 horse power and STILL gets 18-22mpg I like having a full tank, just in case I decide to drive to a land far away. This truck is my idea of alternative energy. My 2011 Van runs on gasoline, gets 14mpg, I paid cash for both, no interest for me either.

      When you figure out how to deal with the waste products from making fuel rods, disposing of "spent rods" either by recycling them or "recharging" them (a bad use of language that appeared in a recent trade journal) I'll get excited by nuclear power plants. It's not commercialy viable until you can get rid of it. The Navy can't even get rid of their waste for a half dozen carriers and 24 or 25 subs - there is still the original pile out of the Nautilus sitting in a warehouse in Norfolk. It's been there about 40 years. I guess that could be called sustainability too.


      .


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      • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
        Wow. I'll rephrase "decrepit old fool" to include people that don't update their knowledge of nuclear power before making an argument against it...

        My basis on the "outdated" nature of education is sound... I got my first bachelor's degree in the 90s, the second one in the late 90's, and my master's a couple of years ago. An interesting thing with my master's, I had to take a science class for a requirement so I took an astronomy class.

        So, in the 90s, we really weren't entirely sure if black holes existed. Now we've taken pictures of the one at the center of the galaxy, we've mapped the entire galaxy to within a few million years of the big bang, and we have found over 2000 (growing daily) exo-planets circling other stars and recently have been able to figure out their size, the composition of their atmosphere, and their surface temperature.

        What do you think the astronaut in school in the 40's or 50's would have regarding that? A tear in the eye watching sputnik go beep beep beep?

        I work in advanced research topics for a government contractor. We have some old people around, very few, we let them think they are important, but they are not and we kind of let them entertain themselves. Then I write the technical solution and 99% of the proposal that gets us the next $100 million contract and we let the old guys work on labor performance metrics or something. I'd say I'll be there some day, but I figured I would take a year off in the next decade and get my PhD and avoid that staleness a little longer.

        Diesel is "ok" I suppose. Makes a good (small) generator, like on a freight train, which charges the batteries and the batteries drive the electric motor which produces 100% of its maximum torque at 0 RPM, and moves the train. Exactly like the Volt does, actually, the gas engine recharges the battery after about 50 miles and it can drive indefinitely at something like 90 mpg and camaro/corvette levels of performance (when flipped to sport mode). But you can't power a city with that.

        Now, on to the argument I was making. Renewable power isn't very "doable", it works fine when decentralized, like some expensive panels that power my house and still happens to be cheaper than paying the utility middleman to cover the cost of their pensions & healthcare for several hundred thousand employees, driving the cost from around $0.03 per kWh on the wholesale market, to around $0.38 per kWh at retail. The panels run around $0.17 per kWh, so is technically cheaper. Putting a bunch in the desert, and then running through the middleman wouldn't be. And it doesn't matter, you can't make base-load generation with renewables, and the math isn't there for it to work at any level of efficiency.

        So here's the physics of the argument. When you burn a gallon of gasoline, you convert one-billionth (that is the number) of the mass of the fuel into kinetic energy to move the car. The rest is expended as heat and friction and you counter that with a radiator to keep it from melting down on itself. That's why gas-fired electric plants are very expensive to run. It isn't "eco-nuts" driving the price of fossil fuels up, it's just the fact that all the easy-to-get stuff is gone, and now we go to the edge of the earth to find it, and we're not the only or the largest buyer at the table anymore.

        I was in error at 150 rail cars a day, I looked it up, it's 110 per 30 hour period. Each is 100 tons these days, I was thinking they were smaller for some reason.

        Modern nuclear reactors don't use the hot fuel of the ones of old... again, it's that updated education thingy. You can handle modern fuel rods with a pair of plastic gloves, and we don't burn them or anything. They are placed in a pool of water, for about 5 years, and when in close proximity to other fuel rods, the electrons jump about and creates heat which drives steam turbines. Every 18 months, you are left with something like 6 ounces of spent waste.

        What do we do with it? Well, actually, they are reprocessed into armaments... C130 specter gunships carry depleted-uranium armor piercing rounds. The "waste" from a modern reactor is perfect for munitions, its relatively harmless in terms of radioactivity, but is about 2 ½ times heavier than lead, much "harder" and pierces carbon steel quite easily. That's the atomic weight of 235/236 doing the talking...

        So how exactly is Pinatubo responsible for Glacier National Park not really having any glaciers anymore? Or Yosemite having a fraction of the water volume it once did, or the Arctic ice cap basically being open to water navigation?

        The earth has "cycles", that argument is true, but geologic cycles are in tens of thousands of years, not ten or 100 years.

        If you read my post, you would see that the argument I'm making is that the lack of resources is going to create a lot more instability in the world.

        An interesting note about diesel... gasoline is made from light-sweet crude, like West Texas and "easy to get" oil in the US. You can make diesel from that too, but its easier to make it from the high-sulfur sludgy stuff from the mid-east, and is why there are a lot more diesel engines in Europe - as it gets its oil from the Mid East.

        Buying the diesel, kind of puts more money into the pockets of jihadi's... just saying. :)





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        • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
          On my truck, lets just say there's a lot you don't know about me. If it weren't for our worthless POTUS and a few groups like the EPA we would be drilling all the oil we need here and not importing a drop, except from our friends. And if they want money to be our friends, no they aren't.

          As for Pinatubo, that was just one volcano that was of such size that the effects were immediate and markedly different from any trend. Different enough that the results could be pointed to and with no uncertainty say this caused this. And the effects were worldwide just as Mt St Helens was and any other good sized volcano. Although it's been a few years now since the 10th biggest eruption occurred in the Northwest - Mt St. Helens. While I don't know that st.helens and Glacier are related I know that our winters were suddenly much harsher for several years.

          The volcano outside of Mexico City has been in a state of constant eruption since sometime in the late 70's and like the one in Hawaii is constantly erupting at a low level.

          All that aside for a moment, please understand my contention is that the output from a coal fired plant in the US, pales compared to what one volcano can spew forth in one event, and we do have numbers of events worldwide at any time. All the CO2 from all the coal fired plants would not equal what Pinatubo gave us.

          My first two degrees were earned after I got back from Vietnam, finishing in 77 then a third in 89. Mechanical, Electrical, Civil Engineering. Then I did a little grad work in the mid 90's and a BFA and MFA finishing in 2006. After 268 hours I'm on a break for a while.

          ***I lost a entire paragraph somehow - late addition.

          The most important thing anybody learns in college is how to learn things. Followed by good scientific methodology. I can't help but believe that the astronaut learned this lesson very well and if there was anything he needed to know in order to process data or things that were relevant to his interests, he would know them. You also seemed explain to me about recycled military use of spent fuel elements. I can assure you, despite my advanced years, there's not much in that field I don't know about.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
          "If you read my post, you would see that the argument I'm making is that the lack of resources is going to create a lot more instability in the world."
          I agree with most of your post, but I think people have always felt like this-- we're running out of resources. And we are running out of specific things that run our economy today, but human ingenuity will find other resources to use to create value. Oil is a huge issue. Climate change is a huge issue. Once the engineers of the world have fixed the problems, the denialism will move on to other problems.
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          • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
            I agree entirely...

            If you look at the oil situation though, the argument is that they are finding new sources all the time.. but its getting very, very hard to get. All the easy stuff is gone, or the wellheads produce so little it doesn't cover the cost to drill it. So the only way we produce now is something like shale oil, where at $100 a barrel, it makes sense to extract it. If oil was $30 a barrel like it was before the Gulf War, it wouldn't be happening... They really need $70 or so oil for shale to work.

            So as we continue to run out, and China continues to consume more, and India is starting to catch up with China... how's that 11 mpg van going to be working out with $7.50 gas? or maybe $9.00 for ultra low sulfur diesel?

            If America hasn't figured it out by then... you want to talk about a "shock" to the economy... it will make the recent recession look like a birthday party.

            It always seems like there are more people saying its "bullshit" that live in coal-digging America, or work in the petroleum industry. And I have no problem with that, or with people making a living, but we also don't want to be standing around bidding on that last barrel of oil either.

            Peak Oil was reached probably somewhere in the 1970s or 80s' and world production has basically struggled to maintain pace since then. The economies work because we have added other sources of fuels, and increased efficiency, but we don't produce a staggering amount more today than we used to.

            One of the best arguments against continuing down the oil path is how the oil producing nations report what they have left. In the 1970's, Saudi Arabia 200 & some-odd billion barrels of oil. Year to year, their report rarely changes, yet they produce a heck of a lot of oil, and it takes thousands of years to make more of it. In 2000, they said they had 250 billion barrels of oil. This year, they said they have 234 billion barrels of oil.

            Why? Well, with "large" reserves, OPEC lets them produce more, and it drives their otherwise useless economy. If they said the truth, maybe its 100 billion or less, or the fact that wells produce a lot less when on the last 20 or 30% of the "full" content, they would be ordered to slow down, and their economy of free education, free healthcare, and free money to the people would stop abruptly and the regime would be in trouble.

            Look at Venezuela, in 2005, they claimed around 150 billion barrels in reserve, in 2009, this skyrocketed to 300 billion or so, but yet, their actual production has fallen off pretty measurably... somewhat due to political problems, somewhat to safety, but mostly because the stuff they are digging up is pretty thick & sludgy and takes a lot of refining steps to turn it into something. This is basically the case all over the world, the future is harder to get oil, more expensive, and will continue to be more so .
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
              I agree with all this except I thought the world extracts more oil now than in 1980. At any rate, we have to face the reality that the economy runs on something finite and that's causing a grave threat to the environment. I do not mean to say they'll always find more oil. Rather I think as it gets more expensive it will cause people to come up with alternatives. This will not be an easy process. I'm cornucopian about energy without denying the facts that burning stuff on a large scale threatens the environment and that the oil will run out.
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      • Posted by Bobhummel 9 years, 9 months ago
        Stargeezer, thanks for that reply. Scojo has so many straw men in his arguments I thought I was reading the history of scarecrows conventions in the mid-west.
        Very well done.
        Cheers
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
      The relevance is rationalization. You start with with conclusion and then look for anything in the world that supports it. There's a whole method of scientific rational thought in which you collect facts before drawing conclusions, but it's hard to maintain when the facts show something you really don't like. I see this in people diagnosed with a terrible disease. You can think, "maybe this is a conspiracy of the medical establishment to milk money from me." and then start searching for any evidence that supports that.

      I'm still optimistic that climate change be managed. It's not like an incurable disease. It's just something expensive and inconvenient that we all wish weren't true.
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      • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
        Here's a pretty good article on the problems with power generation... http://www.energytribune.com/2771/unders...

        The guy that thinks that about 12 ounces of depleted uranium byproduct every year is a lot harder to get rid of than moving 11,000 tons of coal per day, per power plant, really needs to have a look...

        Hydro power is great, but, unfortunately we are running out of water pretty quickly too.. the higher heat in the west creates a high pressure zone over the western mountains and plains that unfortunately keeps moisture from coming on shore from the pacific. The same high pressure zone pulls cold wet air down from Canada and you water in the midwest by the truckload... but there isn't any hydro power in the midwest or the southeast to speak of (if there was, you would have flood control).

        Just in my lifetime, I remember growing up in Minnesota and having 6 foot snow drifts and 40 below zero being pretty much the "norm". Now, winters are really pretty mild... zeros, maybe some short stretches of -10 or something, but not the -40 for months that I remember a few decades ago.

        You don't see climate change living along the ocean coast or in an area where it rains a lot all summer, you see it in fragile environments .. such as home for me in Northern California. We only get rain from October until around March... that's it, we don't get a drop from February to October until the winds shift. The last decade or so, we don't get much of a wind shift, so it gets dryer, and dryer, and now reservoirs are hundreds of feet below normal water levels and staying there. We don't just need a "wet" year to make up for it, we need a wet decade at this point because we have also drained the aquifers. We actually pump water into the ground from rivers to reduce earthquakes from the land sinking...

        I used to remember the temps of the 90s being very warm, last summer, we had 30 days in a row of over 110 degrees.

        "Weather" is what you get from year to year. "Climate" is what happens over decades.
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        • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
          I really questioned the 8-12 ounce comment, so I started digging for a bit of data. What follows down to the last few paragraphs was gleaned from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pow... and a few other sources. Read and learn and then we can discuss this knowledgably.

          **************

          A nuclear reactor is only part of the life-cycle for nuclear power. The process starts with mining (see Uranium mining). Uranium mines are underground, open-pit, or in-situ leach mines. In any case, the uranium ore is extracted, usually converted into a stable and compact form such as yellowcake, and then transported to a processing facility. Here, the yellowcake is converted to uranium hexafluoride, which is then enriched using various techniques. At this point, the enriched uranium, containing more than the natural 0.7% U-235, is used to make rods of the proper composition and geometry for the particular reactor that the fuel is destined for. The fuel rods will spend about 3 operational cycles (typically 6 years total now) inside the reactor, generally until about 3% of their uranium has been fissioned, then they will be moved to a spent fuel pool where the short lived isotopes generated by fission can decay away. After about 5 years in a spent fuel pool the spent fuel is radioactively and thermally cool enough to handle, and it can be moved to dry storage casks or reprocessed.

          Comparing radioactive waste to industrial toxic waste

          In countries with nuclear power, radioactive wastes comprise less than 1% of total industrial toxic wastes, much of which remains hazardous for long periods. Overall, nuclear power produces far less waste material by volume than fossil-fuel based power plants. Coal-burning plants are particularly noted for producing large amounts of toxic and mildly radioactive ash due to concentrating naturally occurring metals and mildly radioactive material from the coal. A 2008 report from Oak Ridge National Laboratory concluded that coal power actually results in more radioactivity being released into the environment than nuclear power operation, and that the population effective dose equivalent, or dose to the public from radiation from coal plants is 100 times as much as from the ideal operation of nuclear plants. Indeed, coal ash is much less radioactive than spent nuclear fuel on a weight per weight basis.

          Waste disposal

          Disposal of nuclear waste is often said to be the Achilles' heel of the industry. Presently, waste is mainly stored at individual reactor sites and there are over 430 locations around the world where radioactive material continues to accumulate. Some experts suggest that centralized underground repositories which are well-managed, guarded, and monitored, would be a vast improvement. There is an "international consensus on the advisability of storing nuclear waste in deep geological repositories", with the lack of movement of nuclear waste in the 2 billion year old natural nuclear fission reactors in Oklo, Gabon being cited as "a source of essential information today."

          As of 2009 there were no commercial scale purpose built underground repositories in operation. The Waste Isolation Pilot Plant in New Mexico has been taking nuclear waste since 1999 from production reactors, but as the name suggests is a research and development facility.

          Reprocessing

          Reprocessing can potentially recover up to 95% of the remaining uranium and plutonium in spent nuclear fuel, putting it into new mixed oxide fuel. This produces a reduction in long term radioactivity within the remaining waste, since this is largely short-lived fission products, and reduces its volume by over 90%. Reprocessing of civilian fuel from power reactors is currently done in Britain, France and (formerly) Russia, soon will be done in China and perhaps India, and is being done on an expanding scale in Japan. The full potential of reprocessing has not been achieved because it requires breeder reactors, which are not commercially available. France is generally cited as the most successful reprocessor, but it presently only recycles 28% (by mass) of the yearly fuel use, 7% within France and another 21% in Russia.[143]

          Reprocessing is not allowed in the U.S. The Obama administration has disallowed reprocessing of nuclear waste, citing nuclear proliferation concerns. In the U.S., spent nuclear fuel is currently all treated as waste.

          Depleted uranium

          Uranium enrichment produces many tons of depleted uranium (DU) which consists of U-238 with most of the easily fissile U-235 isotope removed. U-238 is a tough metal with several commercial uses—for example, aircraft production, radiation shielding, and armor—as it has a higher density than lead. Depleted uranium is also controversially used in munitions; DU penetrators (bullets or APFSDS tips) "self sharpen", due to uranium's tendency to fracture along shear bands.

          ** I am very cautious of where we get the DU that is used in our armor, certain ammunition and the tank Sabo rounds. I did not find a answer today. ***

          Economics of Nuclear Power Plants.

          Internationally the price of nuclear plants rose 15% annually in 1970-1990. Total costs rose tenfold. The nuclear plant construction time became douple. According to Al Gore if intended plan does not hold, the delay cost a billion dollars a year.

          The economics of new nuclear power plants is a controversial subject, since there are diverging views on this topic, and multi-billion dollar investments ride on the choice of an energy source. Nuclear power plants typically have high capital costs for building the plant, but low fuel costs. Therefore, comparison with other power generation methods is strongly dependent on assumptions about construction timescales and capital financing for nuclear plants as well as the future costs of fossil fuels and renewables as well as for energy storage solutions for intermittent power sources. Cost estimates also need to take into account plant decommissioning and nuclear waste storage costs. On the other hand measures to mitigate global warming, such as a carbon tax or carbon emissions trading, may favor the economics of nuclear power.

          In recent years there has been a slowdown of electricity demand growth and financing has become more difficult, which has an impact on large projects such as nuclear reactors, with very large upfront costs and long project cycles which carry a large variety of risks. In Eastern Europe, a number of long-established projects are struggling to find finance, notably Belene in Bulgaria and the additional reactors at Cernavoda in Romania, and some potential backers have pulled out. Where cheap gas is available and its future supply relatively secure, this also poses a major problem for nuclear projects.

          Analysis of the economics of nuclear power must take into account who bears the risks of future uncertainties. To date all operating nuclear power plants were developed by state-owned or regulated utility monopolies where many of the risks associated with construction costs, operating performance, fuel price, accident liability and other factors were borne by consumers rather than suppliers. In addition, because the potential liability from a nuclear accident is so great, the full cost of liability insurance is generally limited/capped by the government, which the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission concluded constituted a significant subsidy. Many countries have now liberalized the electricity market where these risks, and the risk of cheaper competitors emerging before capital costs are recovered, are borne by plant suppliers and operators rather than consumers, which leads to a significantly different evaluation of the economics of new nuclear power plants.

          Following the 2011 Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster, costs are expected to increase for currently operating and new nuclear power plants, due to increased requirements for on-site spent fuel management and elevated design basis threats.

          Nuclear decommissioning

          The price of energy inputs and the environmental costs of every nuclear power plant continue long after the facility has finished generating its last useful electricity. Both nuclear reactors and uranium enrichment facilities must be decommissioned, returning the facility and its parts to a safe enough level to be entrusted for other uses. After a cooling-off period that may last as long as a century, reactors must be dismantled and cut into small pieces to be packed in containers for final disposal. The process is very expensive, time-consuming, dangerous for workers, hazardous to the natural environment, and presents new opportunities for human error, accidents or sabotage.

          The total energy required for decommissioning can be as much as 50% more than the energy needed for the original construction. In most cases, the decommissioning process costs between US $300 million to US$5.6 billion. Decommissioning at nuclear sites which have experienced a serious accident are the most expensive and time-consuming. In the U.S. there are 13 reactors that have permanently shut down and are in some phase of decommissioning, and none of them have completed the process.

          Current UK plants are expected to exceed £73bn in decommissioning costs.

          In most reactors the fuel is ceramic uranium oxide (UO2 with a melting point of 2800°C) and most is enriched. The fuel pellets (usually about 1 cm diameter and 1.5 cm long) are typically arranged in a long zirconium alloy (zircaloy) tube to form a fuel rod, the zirconium being hard, corrosion-resistant and permeable to neutrons.* Numerous rods form a fuel assembly, which is an open lattice and can be lifted into and out of the reactor core. In the most common reactors these are about 3.5 to 4 meters long.

          *************************************************

          Now if you've lasted this long, the suggestion has been made that there is 8-12 ounces of deleted uranium that must be disposed of each year - this is amazingly false. The fuel rods are replaced when they reach about 97% of their uranium stills remains as U-238 and has not been converted to the somewhat less radioactive isotopes. As was stated above, it is the acclimation of very long life half life isotopes are generated and build up in the fuel rods through their 6 year useful life.

          Although we commonly refer to these used rods as "spent", that far from reality. The rods are still highly radioactive and the isotopes in them will remain so for about 10,000 years. They will not in their form be able to reach the critical mass required for an explosion, but the radioactivity will make them unhealthy to be around for a very long time.

          And the problem is not just the fuel rods, we also need to deal with manufacturing wastes for both the rods and all the other radioactive things we have in our society today, medical, research, industry and more. All this needs to go someplace and since we cannot build a safe fast breeders reactor in this country, we cannot recycle it here.

          If I had a train car load of coal ash and a pickup truck load "spent" fuel rods - my life insurance will be much less likely to payoff If I'd take a ride on the train and get as far from the truck as I can.
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          • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
            The volume of waste is probably the "true waste", the rest is coolant and inert materials in the rods.

            Of course, you are also making the incorrect assumption that we will always use Fission-based nuclear power. In reality, a reactor planned today would be obsolete by the time it is built.

            https://lasers.llnl.gov

            Are you really suggesting that when 2030 comes around, and we are at 9.5 billion people on the planet, we keep pumping coal into the atmosphere? or that we double the output by then? The estimates you look at do show slowing demand, but it isn't adjusted for population growth, and the fact that power has become much more expensive, so people have dumped the old CRT fishbowls, plasma TV's and shitty air conditioners in favor of newer more efficient ones.

            As for DU used in armor, I think it is often used one of the laminate layers in explosive-reactive armor. Advanced armor systems have directional explosives within laminate layers, so when struck by a large artillery round, the armor 'explodes' in the opposite direction, negating much of the inertial force of the projectile.

            A large part of the nuclear waste problem (admittedly a problem) is political, not environmental. Much like how in California, we are almost out of water, but we keep releasing water from surface storage into rivers to protect the fish population. It's political, not a technical problem, to avoid a more serious drought.

            Much of the waste problem is actually in the coolant, but in some countries (India in particular) they use a liquid polymer mixed with the water in the cooling pools and apparently keeps the coolant quite a bit 'cooler'.

            The misnomer though (that you mention) is the reduction in demand for power in the US... not the case at all, in fact it grows in a rather linear fashion and will surge tremendously with EV's.

            The differential has been a very large population of people like myself (in the West I would assume) that have solar-powered homes. I have and 8000 watt system on my roof, along with another 2000 watt turbine (experimental) above my barn out back. All-in, I produce a little over a megawatt a month of power, quite a bit more than I can use myself and it discharges into the grid as net-metering. On average, I produce double or triple what my house needs.

            I'm not anywhere near alone, I work in the hydro power industry, and I see some of the numbers, and "notice" such things. I have a neighbor on a stream that built an old fashioned water wheel and hooked it to a dynamo. He makes upwards of 7000 watts off that thing and he spent at most maybe $2000 all-in on it.

            You see, we spend around $450-$550 a month on average in California on power, if you don't do something like this. We have also pretty much banned any kind of power generation in California for one reason or another (and we don't have any coal, and never would issue a mining permit anyway). Do you run a 200 car train from Wyoming to every power plant in the Western US every day? Let's put this into perspective, I work for the Dept. of Energy, and we have 57 hydro plants in the west, and out of those 57, we "reliably" produce about 10,500 megawatts of power daily. That includes Hoover Dam, Grand Cooly, and the Navajo coal-fired plant in New Mexico, etc. 57 Nuke plants would be at least 60,000 megawatts in comparison and power would be something like $50 / month flat rate, like it is in Canada. Our hydro power into the California is something like 2 or 3% of the California Independent System Operator's daily load demand. The piece that has actually helped that has been the 10s of thousands of homes with heavy-hitter solar systems on them now... a megawatt here and there isn't a lot, but out of 45 million people in the golden state, 100,000 homes (a small estimate) kicks in around 3400 megawatts daily into the California grid, or the same as 3 or 4 base-load generation plants. That has been what has "eased demand", not a reduction in demand. Those feed through reverse-running meters on the houses, and is not seen or trackable by the power generation side, it's just seen as a lower load demand. (We have to adjust generation on a minute-by-minute basis to meet current load demands on the grid, or the frequency of the power would fluctuate, appliances would be flaky or fail, etc.)

            Our economy doesn't function with the cost of fossil fuels, and the uncontrollable increases in it. Gas as $0.89 / gallon when I was driving my high-school Mustang around in 1988... any grade... 2014 - pretty much $4.50 anywhere you go. We haven't even gotten into cap & trade on that yet.. (California exempted it so far).

            If your average family is dumping $1000 into fossil fuels a month in California... does that make a lot of sense (if I didn't mostly work from home, my Armada can slurp up $200 / week in gas, no problem).

            Every recession has been preceded by an energy shock... do you want to make a bet with your train-load of coal and oil that it will never happen again? I've seen it three or four times in my lifetime, and I'm not that old, it would be a stupid bet to take. The $800 billion bailout would have paid for about 400+ nuclear power plants... a couple of billion really is chump change... I'm sorry, but it is. We also have the only economy in the world with currency valued by faith & fiat... hell, we can kind of print money and do whatever we want, to be honest.

            You are making an argument that has no basis in reality... assuming that somehow we'll wave a magic wand, and EPA emissions regulations, the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, and union miner wages will all somehow disappear or greatly reduce, or that OPEC will stop manipulating oil supplies and let oil drop to $30 / barrel or that shipping that coal across the country every day to every power plant is free.

            Even with all of the pollution problems set aside, (Exxon Valdez, BP in the Gulf, the coal-sludge mess in West Virginia or wherever it was, or the oil dumped into the Mississippi), and ignoring the fact that oil and fossil fuels tie us to being actively-involved in the Middle East continuously.. you have to ignore all of that to make the argument sound.

            Sorry, but that's a lot of assumptions.

            Personally, I'll take the pickup truck and dump the stuff at the bottom of the salt mine shafts at Yucca Mountain for the next 10 years until we have a better plan, and worry about it later.
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            • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
              Fortunately, most of the people in the US don't live in CA.

              Heat, AC and electric her for a 4500sf home runs $260 a month.

              2030 might bring a change, just as cold fusion will when ever things get worked out. Right now it's pie in the sky.
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              • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 9 months ago
                My point though, you don't turn a $100 trillion dollar economy in 6 months.... doesn't happen, the US can't be the last one in line buying the last barrel of oil. What would you do the day after that? The typical US inhabitant is 3 days from animal. Now, I (for example) can cut my main utility power breaker, live off the fruits & nuts in the orchard in back and take a 2 mile drive or so to where I can hunt game if I really needed to, and being on the high side of a reservoir, water wouldn't be impossible, and I'd have 10,000 watts during the day and 2000 watts at night to live on, with life being more or less normal.

                By most though, you realize that California is ⅓ of the US economy. If California seceded, the US would fall to #7 in the world and California would actually be #8 by itself. Things are expensive here because we have a lot of people clamoring for resources. In a way, it's kind of a petri dish of what is yet to come for most of the rest of the country.

                Remember when corn used to be 10 ears for a $1.00? So do I, then ethanol came along and human consumption was competing with fuel for cars. People complain about $4.00 gas, but don't really think that milk actually costs more than that.

                It's about localization to resources. I also buy vine ripened for something like 5 lbs for $1.00 and most produce (in California) you can buy for cheaper than that, we grow something like half the US produce, but with the lack of water, we pumped so much from the ground that the Central Valley 'fell' 6 feet in the last 10 years. Any idea what a shut-down of agriculture here will do to food prices throughout the US? I'd bet something like a 400% increase for anything fresh-grown.

                Speaking of produce, can you imagine how nasty it would look if we had coal power plants here? We could sell the the strawberries as "chocolate covered".

                Everything has a reason...
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                • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
                  Obama turned a $100 trillion economy to a depression in 6 mos. It worked for him. Haven't you seen the seas quit rising and the planet was healed?

                  Perhaps he can give us cold fusion and food replicators like on Star Trek if we asked him real nice......... It makes as much sense as the rest you offered - I'm always amazed how people in CA think that it's the whole world and every place else is some desert.

                  Strawberries? I grow strawberries that so big that two cover more than the palm of your hand and the coal fired power plant less than 2 miles from my house does not cover everything with soot no matter what you think or read.

                  We have a very good life here if we could be left alone by the crazy politicians from out there. You guys ought to have a border fence up to keep your wacko law makers from destroying the lives of the rest of us.

                  FWIW, I buy milk from a dairy farmer a couple miles away for $2 a gallon and eggs for $1 a dozen. I run a aquaponics system for fresh fish and fresh veggies and salad greens. We put out a half acre in corn and watermelons and 15 tomato plants that we can from. Not to mention peppers of several kinds, green beans, peas, squash and potatoes (both red and some huge bakers) and this year we added sweet potatoes to our garden. All in all, I bet we have around 2 acres we tend as a truck garden if you don't include the orchard with apple trees, pear tree (just one), raspberry, blackberry and blueberry plot. Our grape vines aren't too big since we only grow three varieties that we just use for jellies and preserves. One of our friends helps with the vineyard for the majority of the graps that she makes wine from. I planted three Cherry trees this year and added two more apple trees.

                  My property included a old vineyard that was worked commercially for decades, but had been allowed to go to seed after the owners death 15 before we bought the land. It was operated to produce grapes for jellies. We didn't try to revive it but after 16 years we still have "volunteer" vines sprout up unexpectantly.

                  I lease out 100 acres that is planted in popcorn and another 25 acres for Sun flowers. The popcorn is a much more valuable crop than grapes in this country today.

                  All that is just how we survive and flourish is the "shadow" of a large coal fired power plant - that fortunately provides rather inexpensive electricity for us. Nobody suffers from black lung and since the coal is mined not too far away, the entire operation is fairly inexpensive.

                  So lets make a deal. You keep your crackpot politicians at home, and we'll eat what we grow, hunt, fish or raise.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
      Oh, I dunno, probably as relevant as an alleged President whose work-history consists of teaching a subject upon which he's woefully ignorant, and "community organizing"...
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 9 months ago
    This world has been hotter. This world has been colder. There has always been climate change. Change has always been climate's constant. An old dino like me would know..
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
    I've known this since November 19, 2009. that's when someone sent me the link to the Climate-gate archive and I put it out on my particular outlet for all to see. Google News picked it up, and it went viral. 35,000 page views in 24 hours. After that, the second-guessing began.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 9 months ago
    it is unfortunate when a man of intelligence as the Col. is presents factual information it is not even considered by those who control the dollars in wash.dc because they are actually stupid and have no interest in removing them selves from the state of stupidity that they occupy. so all of his effort will not be heard since the stupid ones in wash.dc can't hear anything since their heads are stuck where the sun does not shine.
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  • Posted by starguy 9 years, 9 months ago
    But, I thought the "science" was "settled"?

    Liberals...usually wrong, but never in doubt.
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    • Posted by gtebbe 9 years, 9 months ago
      I remember Obama explicitly stating, "...the debate is over. Climate change is a fact...", intimating that U.S. Citizens are going to be paying yet another tax. So my question would be how would sending obama more money going to make it all stop? If you want to get these freaks to roll their eyes ask them exactly how much do humans actually contribute to this. "Any Scientist Will Tell You" that studies have shown the contributions from human activity are in fact inconsequential.

      Cheers!
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
      Science is never settled. It's always open to new evidence.

      This does mean we have to investigate homeopathy or ESP over and over again in subtly different ways. But if something completely new is observed, even something that's similar to things like homeopathy, which scientific observations show has no effect, we'd love to learn about it.

      Antibiotics were an easy cure for bacterial infections. It would be great to find easy or hard solutions to all human problems. Scientific models aren't like old wisdom passed down through the ages; they change all the time with new evidence.
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  • Posted by $ Snezzy 9 years, 9 months ago
    The part of philosophy called epistemology can help us here. "How do we know what we think we know?"

    The claims of the warmists rest on data that they provide. They point to hockey-stick-shaped charts, but they usually cannot give us the raw numbers from which the charts were made. Instead they provide, if anything, averages, or averages of averages, and those themselves are often adjusted in obscure ways. Even the historic temperature records get adjusted to eliminate "outlier" data points that don't advance the "cause".

    See this:
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/06/29/no...

    Look at this, and especially scroll down to the charts of temperatures for the state of Maine:
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/06/28/th...

    Looking at the actual process of measuring temperature we ought to think immediately of several questions: "When were these thermometers calibrated? By what standard and by what method? What method is used for recording the data? What is done with missing data points? What is done with data points that are later found to be from broken equipment? Does the data pass statistical tests for 'fabricated' data?"

    The following article suggests that national economic decisions of grave consequence rely on temperature data that is good only to plus or minus 5 degrees Celsius:
    http://pugshoes.blogspot.se/2010/10/metr...
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
      I gave up figuring out climate and weather and all that and built my very own weather rope. It's a rope hanging from a fence post.

      If it's dry, you can be certain it's not raining.
      If the rope is wet, you can be certain it's raining
      If it's cold out and the rope is hard, it might snow.
      If the rope is swinging, you can be certain the wind is blowing.

      With all the things the "weather rope" allows me to be certain about, why would I waste my time watching the Weather Channel? Or listening to somebody who tells me cow farts are destroying the planet. Hey pinhead Eco-Nazis, I will KNOW that you are right when my weather rope is pointing straight up. So far it's hanging straight down and that tells me just how right you aren't.
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  • Posted by Fountainhead24 9 years, 9 months ago
    Climate is changing and not for the better. Whether "man" is responsible or not is moot. Every day our environment is becoming more toxic (thanks to "man") and more radioactive (ref: Fukushima). Human population growth is putting an extreme strain on the food and energy sources and terrorism is proliferating. So, STOP wasting time talking about CO2 levels and think more about the real dangers we are facing. OY!
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  • -3
    Posted by Maphesdus 9 years, 9 months ago
    Do his credentials qualify him to form a reliable opinion about this particular field of science?
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
      My credentials do, Maph. Global warming is the biggest hoax since cold fusion, even moreso than the report that a solid material could store 65 wt. % hydrogen in it.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
      Do an energy balance. The concern over global warming was not unreasonable during the 1970s and 1980s, as there was valid science to the loss of ozone due to CFC's. The change in CO2 and its effect on global warming is a very minor percentage. You should read Green Engineering by David Allen and David Shonnard. I went to their day-long seminar at a Summer School for Young Chemical Engineering Faculty in 2002, and I've been teaching one lecture every October on the subject ever since. It is so much fun telling the young skulls full of mush the truth.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
        "...as there was valid science to the loss of ozone due to CFC's."

        check your premise.

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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
          Try


          Prof. Allen's calculations are correct in the attachment, given his suppositions. I have checked them myself.

          http://my.fit.edu/~jbrenner/globalwarmin...
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
            Do not
            ever again
            ask me to check an attachment
            which is a Powerpoint presentation.

            Please

            thank you.
            (my virus filter went nuts)

            Further.

            Please do not ever
            ever
            link anything for my perusal
            which involves "green" indoctrination.

            thank you again.

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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
              Sorry, Hiraghm. That really isn't green indoctrination. Allen and Shonnard will tell you that global warming is highly overblown. They debunk the hockey stick plot in that PowerPoint presentation.
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
                At the top of the page it had a logo which said, "Green Engineering".
                http://www.xtimports.com/greenstupid/gre...

                There is valid science behind the greenhouse effect (renamed global warming). Look at Venus (points at Mars).

                Doesn't mean it applies. Or like the products that produce cancer in rats... if you feed them five times their normal entire diet of just that product. Likewise, the chemical interactions you describe for CFCs may well be valid science... but still may not apply to global ozone.

                Edited to add "greenhouse effect" for accuracy.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
          CFC's form free radicals, all of which react quite readily with ozone. It is not only an important part of atmospheric chemistry, but the starting point for most polymerizations. I have checked my premise on this one, Hiraghm.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
            Nope, you didn't...

            I guess I should have cut-and-pasted more...

            "The concern over global warming was not unreasonable during the 1970s and 1980s, as there was valid science to the loss of ozone due to CFC's."

            In the 70s the fear was still global cooling. And the "concern" was put out by the same *politically motivated* pieces of shit.

            So CFCs form free radicals which react quite readily with ozone. That doesn't include or address the mechanisms for the creation of ozone, and natural cycles with respect to both the Earth and the sun.

            It's like saying tobacco causes cancer; it doesn't address how much, when, how ingested, genetic predispositions, etc. Yeah, sure, tobacco can cause cancer... except in the millions of people who've smoked and never got cancer.

            Just because CFCs can form free radicals which react quite readily with ozone doesn't mean A) that it happens or B) that it'll result in global warming.
            Too many other factors to calculate.
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
              I remember the global cooling issues. CFC's do form free radicals and react with ozone in the lab. Global warming is another story (more like a myth).
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              • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                global warming, global cooling, overpopulation, food shortages (SOYLENT GREEN), etc...all population control tools used by the left to create panic on weak minds. Naturally there enough people ignorant of history and too lazy to think or research for themselves to see through the BS. It gets old.
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
                  Yes, they are tools to create panic on weak minds. The best shredding of the global warming business was by the recently deceased Michael Crichton in State of Fear.
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                  • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                    Sheep herding mentality. To me, the amusing aspect is the audacity of mankind thinking they can predict the weather. :) I live in Phoenix, it seldom rains, and they still get the day to day weather wrong fairly often. :)
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            • Posted by Maphesdus 9 years, 9 months ago
              So are you saying tobacco doesn't cause cancer?
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              • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
                lol..no tobacco doesn't cause cancer. Smoking tobacco causes cancer. Some suggest that the fertilizers and pesticides makes the inhalation of the smoke more dangerous than it actually is.

                Consider this a public service announcement, not a real reply.
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
                No, I'm saying that tobacco has been blamed for cancers caused by other cancer-causing agents.

                My father died of colon cancer. He smoked. Therefore, his cancer was blamed on tobacco, not the food containing carcinogens he ate, not the chemicals he was exposed to for years and years working construction. Thus the threat of tobacco was overblown in order to demonize the product.

                I think the war on tobacco was an experiment as to how much the minds of the American public could be manipulated.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      doctorate in Physics, member of American Geophysical Union
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      • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
        I'll accept his credentials anytime. Of all the men alive on planet Earth, there are just a couple handful whom I'm truly jealous of - they all walked on the moon. Other than those few, I'd not trade lives with (or even segments of lives with) anybody here.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
          star, really? there are other heroes...but I know what you mean...
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          • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 9 months ago
            It was the dream of my childhood to be among them. To be able to go into space and see not just different countries, but different worlds. The dreams of a young boy, rockets and spacecraft. Fueled by Heinlein and Asimov and certainly Star Tek.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
              I love Asimov and Trek, also Arthur C Clarke and Kim Stanley Robinson.

              AJ from this board wrote a sci-fi story; parts of it feel very real. Parts of it are a little boring, I think on purpose like 2001 was boring on purpose, to show you the boring aspects of space travel.

              I want people to go to space and build Gulches, just far enough to be left alone but not so far to be completely hidden. It's more likely to build them in the sea or remote regions but I still like the notion.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
          I've never really been jealous or envious of others in my life, but just extremely recently I've become extremely, extremely jealous of, oh, about half a dozen men...
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
      "Do his credentials qualify him to form a reliable opinion about this particular field of science?"
      It's like taking advice on megadoses of Vitamin C from Linus Pauling. It's like those arguments that say Albert Einstein or some other esteemed person said XYZ outside his field.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
      Credentials do not qualify ANYONE to form a reliable opinion.

      Only knowledge does that.

      So do the credentials of a patent clerk qualify him to form a reliable opinion about atomic fission?

      Do the credentials of a "community organizer" qualify him to form a reliable opinion on military strategy, foreign relations, or economics?
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