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Perhaps Niall Ferguson Had A Point About Keynes

Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 9 months ago to Economics
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"The world which Keynes built dominates academic economics. It is a world in which the vast majority of our business economists and analysts have been trained, and has been the basis of monetary policy during most of the Fed’s history. But as for the large large swaths of the world which do not believe in atheism and the ideals of the higher sodomy, don’t we have the right to think out loud and express concern about the possibility that the world built by Keynes is a world built on one man’s idiosyncratic personal religious and sexual views, which most of us do not share."
SOURCE URL: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybowyer/2013/05/12/perhaps-niall-ferguson-had-a-point-about-keynes/


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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 9 months ago
    The kind of grasping at straws for arguments that take away from the whole.
    This is noise and obfuscation. Atheism and homosexuality have nothing to do with logical argument in economics.
    If the point is that his private life affected his thought process, of course. If the point is that his specific private life makes his economic theories consequently bad, it is nonsense.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      Thoritsu, I think the author was clear that an argument tying homosexuality with someone's economic theories was not valid. How did you read otherwise?
      I do not attribute pedophilia to sexuality. I attribute it to violence. A form of stealing, in that the interactions are not fully consensual. It is a cynical and dare I say sociopathetic way of dealing in the world that can be brought to discrediting the theories after they already have been debunked with reason. Sometimes it is very important to delve into why someone with knowledge would purposely promote anti-reason in their theories. Rand did. This was not a "grasping at straws" argument as much as a serious inquiry into the validity of Ferguson's aside. Relevant
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      • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 9 months ago
        Uh, actually, I think that WAS the argument he made. The author just first explained HOW it was relevant by addressing many of the other similar claims that were more logical fallacy than actual logical inference.

        It's the same point made in the two follow-up articles that are at the bottom, the argument being that at the time he formed his economic theories, Keynes' ideological and sexual views played a very heavy part in the formation of his economic theories.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 9 months ago
        Honestly, I can't read the full article through the link. I had to infer from the quoted summary. If I missed the point, apologize. Agree that pedophilia is violence.
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        • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 9 months ago
          No, after reading this in full, I stand by the original statement. It may be correct, but clearly nothing more than a hypothesis, with inadequate present understanding of the human mind to evaluate or support.

          Separately, I agree he is a bad guy, in economics and person. If the point is to assert he was like the "actors" and real actors in politics today, seeking a fame by inciting the foolish masses by connecting inherent human behaviors (e.g. inclination to give something to someone that gave something to you) to economic nonsense, we may all be in agreement. Homosexuality and atheism are in evidence, but not the root cause.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 9 months ago
      On the contrary, philosophy, whether moral, economic, religious, or whatnot is all part of the great whole. How you think about things affects how you think about other things - you can not compartmentalize one philosophy while delving into another because they ALL eventually wrap up into the great sum of TRUTH.

      If you look at it from a logical standpoint, any assertion put forth is going to affect any other conclusion relying on that assertion. In the realms of economics where you may have dozens of assertions working in tandem to create a theory, having even one that is logically invalid or suspect calls into question the whole working theory. This is precisely the argument made in this piece.

      Given the storied failures of Keynes' theories as we have seen in their practical applications via government policy, I think it is also fair to point out the a conclusion is rarely flawed unless an underlying assertion is flawed.
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  • -1
    Posted by Maphesdus 9 years, 9 months ago
    After doing a bit of searching, I happened to stumble upon this:

    "Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren," by John Maynard Keynes:
    http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/...

    I think this pretty much debunks the baseless claim that Keynes was only a short-term thinker.
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    • Posted by Zero 9 years, 9 months ago
      And yet his quote about "...In the long run we'll all be dead." seems properly attributed. (I had to look it up, of course.)

      Did Keynes have a problem with perpetual gov't borrowing? Certainly his intellectual progeny doesn't. Are they distorting his views?

      If he truly is the fountainhead of that mess, then...
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  • -3
    Posted by Maphesdus 9 years, 9 months ago
    If we're going to denounce Keynes, let's denounce him on the basis of whether or not his theories actually work, and leave his private life out of it.
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    • 12
      Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 9 months ago
      Okay, his theories don't work, never have, never will. Austrian school economists and reality have demolished Keynes' theories innumerable times. Our current anemic economic recovery, funded by debt and Fed debt monetization, offers proof, and the coming debt collapse should finally bury his theories. However, it won't, because while Keynesianism is just as intellectually bankrupt now as it was when it failed to remedy the Great Depression, it serves as a cover for the state to tax, borrow, and spend. That is always the aim of statists, and they will use whatever any available intellectual fig leaf to justify their actions.
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      • 10
        Posted by salta 9 years, 9 months ago
        straightlinelogic, I agree with your entire comment except for one small point.
        I believe the problems caused by Keynes ideas is NOT that they don't work, its that they can appear work on sub-election-cycle timescales. The policy-makers have no interest in the long term, when we all have to pay for that short term appearance of success.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
          Like anyone borrowing on credit can appear to be wealthy, in the short-term. But when the bills come due and the individual cannot repay, the house of cards comes crashing down. Unfortunately, this often happens after the opposing party has assumed power, and they garner the blame.
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    • Posted by richrobinson 9 years, 9 months ago
      History is our guide on this one. Look at the 20th century. Warren Harding inherited an economy in free fall from Woodrow Wilson. FDR inherited a recession from Herbert Hoover and Reagan got a recession from Jimmy Carter. Harding and Reagan instituted lower taxes and smaller government reforms. Both saw the economy rebound in about 18 months. FDR used a Keynsian approach and the economy rebounded briefly before tanking and becoming the Great Depression which lasted at least 10 years. Keynes was wrong and I don't care why.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      You don 't leave our private lives out of discussions...
      I will denounce a person on all immoral judgements and acts. Often you find links. The article is even handed, in my opinion. And no, his theories are set up for second handers. Stealing, whether the lives of children or from your pocketbook.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
        And detestable. Any adult who would sodomize a child and proudly write of that action in a sexual conquest diary, is a moral degenerate and cannot be counted on to have any rational/moral philosophy.
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    • Posted by Zero 9 years, 9 months ago
      Couldn't agree more, Maph.
      Seems to me just a feature length ad hominem attack.

      Just as racists always have a perfectly valid reason to be racist, Perhaps ad hominem attackers find perfectly valid reasons to attack the man.

      Meaning no offence to those present.
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      • -1
        Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
        Why do racists need a valid reason to be racist?
        Marxists don't need a valid reason to be Marxist...
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        • Posted by Zero 9 years, 9 months ago
          Just ask any racist. They'll tell you they're not racist because... x,y,z.

          People always have their reasons.
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          • -1
            Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
            Just ask any Marxist; they'll tell you they're not Marxist because... x,y,z.

            You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask IF they had a reason, or claimed a reason... I asked why do they NEED a valid reason? Anymore than idiot Marxists need a reason for their bigotries and prejudices?

            Yeah, it doesn't matter how a raaaacist may try to defend himself, doesn't matter how valid his arguments are or the double-standard presented by the accuser... the mere accusation makes him a racist.

            A white man says the 'n-word', and a lifetime of actions belying the subsequent accusations of raaacism suddenly mean nothing.

            EVERYBODY is prejudiced and bigoted. EVERYBODY . Sometimes those bigotries and prejudices are along racial lines. Sometimes along sexual lines, or national lines, or 'class' lines, or along philosophical lines, or sometimes even completely random (being based on emotional reaction).
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            • -1
              Posted by Maphesdus 9 years, 9 months ago
              A Marxist is someone who believes in and promotes the philosophy and ideology of Karl Marx. If someone says "I'm not a Marxist because I think a lot of Marx's ideas and theories are wrong," trying to call them a Marxist after that would only make you look foolish.
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              • -1
                Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago
                No, it would just make them a liar (one of the requirements to be a Marxist...)

                "If someone says "I'm not a racist because I think a lot of racist ideas and theories are wrong," trying to call them a raaaaacist after that would only make you look foolish. "


                Again, why do racists need a valid reason to be racist any more than a Marxist needs a valid reason to be Marxist?

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