Laisse Faire Criminology

Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago to Legislation
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Of the many theories of crime, none is based on doing nothing. Every theory assumes that someone has a duty to act to punish wrongs or remediate harms or save the sinner. Traditional studies of victimology come closest to a laissez faire theory that problems in our social environment are only analogous to problems in our physical environment: we protect ourselves from the elements; but we do not seek to punish storms, either for their own good or as general deterrence to any other bad weather.

Altruism informs criminology. Even more than the golden rule, the parable of the Good Samaritan tells us all that we are our brother’s keeper. And no one is kept better than someone in prison.

When Sir Robert Peel formed the London Metropolitan Police Service in 1829, crime was a political problem defined by religion. Today, criminology resonates within sociology. A hundred years ago, Marxists criticized Max Weber in particular and sociology in general for being concerned only with church, family, and state. Today, those critical sociologists and critical criminologists define the content of most university programs: racism and sexism are caused by capitalism; end of story.

Even libertarians and objectivists who generally do not care what you smoke or with whom you sleep insist on the enforcement of property rights specifically as the punishment of those who violate the rights of others. Within those circles, self-identified “anarcho-capitalists” engage in long arguments with advocates of constitutionally limited government (“minarchy”) attempting to prove that a completely free market in protection and adjudication would still bring justice in the form of punishments to wrong-doers. No one says, “So what?”

That should seem peculiar. Is it not self-contradictory to claim that you are completely responsible for your own life unless you can complain about someone else? A completely consistent criminology based on individualism is centered on victimology: understanding your risks in society and taking preventive and preparatory actions to avoid losses.

Altruism has a range of definitions. Objectivists and libertarians cite the inventor of the word, Auguste Comte, and take him literally. Comte was a political Platonist who advocated for a secular civic priesthood to rule a common humanity that was united in complete concern for others – and no concern for self. Comte was explicit. Later philosophers softened this. After all, Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Self must come first before benevolence can be extended to others. Today, altruism is mere politeness and civility, common grace, and simple decency. That seems harmless enough.

But what happens when that fails?

I am a fan of public transportation and ride one or more buses to work or play most days. “Pardon me”, “excuse me”, and “sorry” are important acknowledgements of small harms. Criminal justice is based on the expectation of larger and more complicated apologies for harms of greater consequence.

We generally understand others as extensions, projections, reflections, or reiterations of ourselves. “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you” assumes that others share your values. More deeply, it assumes that others think as you do – even that they think at all. Our propensity for copying the behaviors of others runs far deeper than “monkey see, monkey do.” In point of fact, researchers found that given a puzzle and a ritual, and later shown the short-cut, chimpanzees abandon useless actions, while humans repeat them for no apparent reason. Thus, everyone seems to be able to learn how to drive a car (or ride a bus), use a computer or a cell phone, and learn a foreign language. So, when you are harmed by someone else, you assume that like you they had no intention and having committed a transgression, they are remorseful, and cannot be content until they have rebalanced themselves with some propitiatiation.

Why?

And if that other person has no such inner needs, where do we find the motivation (“political right”) to redirect that person’s body, mind, and soul?

Why do we feel differently about losses caused by other people than we do about losses caused by storms? If we protect ourselves from nature, why do we not also protect ourselves from human nature?


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  • Posted by LarryHeart 9 years, 9 months ago
    Modern Criminal "Justice" is based on getting revenge. Put 'em away.

    Justice would be having the criminal work to compensate his or her victims and pay for the room and board, if they are incarcerated, and the Police and court time that were necessary.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      The concept of having criminals work to repay their victims and even to cover the costs of their confinement seems sound but entails so many severe problems that it is not tenable in our current society. We have had this before. We have it now. It makes the state a master of slaves. Wardens and judges have enriched themselves on false convictions. This is historical, but most recently, read about the "Kids for Cash" scandals in Luzerne, Pennsylvania.

      "For much of the 19th century after the American Civil War, the state of Mississippi used a convict lease system for its prisoners; lessees paid fees to the state and were responsible for feeding, clothing and housing prisoners who worked for them as laborers. As it was lucrative for both the state and lessees, as in other states, the system led to entrapment and a high rate of convictions for minor offenses for black males, whose population as prisoners increased rapidly in the decades after the war. Wrongly accused of having a high rate of criminality, black males often struggled for years to get out of the convict lease system." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi...

      I agree that the perpetrator needs to repay the victim, but for most victims, money is usually not so important as contrition.
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      • Posted by LarryHeart 9 years, 9 months ago
        Your Comparison is inaccurate. The convict lease system benefited only the prison and the State (and is in fact happening today in private prisons.)

        I propose compensating the victims and the taxpayers, not enriching the prison and the state.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
      Some classes of offense necessitate permanent removal from society. In the ancient world, that often ment exile. Now how do you enforce exile in a society trying to practice "laissez-faire criminology"?
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      • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
        Temlakos, it is not the the entire society must practice "laissez faire criminology". And as you say, perhaps some people do need to be exiled, given the topology that locking someone inside prison is equivalent to locking them outside the town. Who those people are and what their crimes may be are important questions. Too often, we (ahem "we") seek _absolute_ answers where _objective_ solutions are needed. According to Objectivism, only metaphysical truths are absolute. Human action is not.

        I suggest "laissez faire criminology" as a starting point. Rather than just jumping in to "do something" I think that whoever is calling for the jumping should first prove the need for doing _anything_. Some good has come from some "moral panics." The awareness of spousal abuse is an example of that. However, many "moral panics" - such as poisoned Halloween candy; missing children - were fallacious, overblown, or wrongly understood. ("Missing" kids are "kidnapped" by non-custodial parents.)

        In discussing crime, we Objectivists and our conservative comrades posit a largely non-existent body of willing and planfully competent perpetrators who calculate to profit from victimizing the unwary. That does happen: shoplifting is a criminal occupation, a paying job contrary to law. However, overwhelmingly, crimes are perpetrated within communities and within families. Rather than removing the criminal, the better outcome is to re-integrate them into the community.

        "Reintegrative Shaming: the Essence of Restorative Justice?" my paper for a graduate class in criminology theory here:
        https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2ZgcRq7...
        (Let me know when you get to the part where the tribal decision was just to shoot the guy. it comes near the part where another tribe just beat the punk up, stripped him naked, and left him on the plains. Just sayin'... no absolutes here...)
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        • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
          If we "posit a largely non-existent body of willing and planfully competent perpetrators who calculate to profit from victimizing the unwary," that is because we happen to have no experience with a family member stealing from us, or Uncle Festus getting too fresh with his niece. The only crime from which I have ever suffered, has been at the hands of strangers. Or, as in one case, from work acquaintances who turn out to be confidence artists.

          And then there was the next-door bully who knew no shame, and had no concept of "society" as any institution with rules he ought to obey.

          Result: he added crime to crime, until at last he landed in prison for a lengthy sentence. For Grand Theft, Auto.

          But that was after he broke my hand, then tried to break it again, and would make a habit of waylaying me for every imagined slight he got it into his head that I committed against him.

          Reintegrate HIM into society? No. Forbid him fire or water within four hundred miles of me.
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          • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
            I know a story similar to yours, Temlakos, where the victims include a civilian employee of a police department. Getting the police in her jurisdiction to act has been impossible. The sociopath turns charming and tells the police that he cannot understand why this crazy bitch singled him out. Meanwhile, he has sprinkled nails in someone else's driveway...

            I do not have an easy answer. I do know that cases such as yours and hers cannot be the definitive norm for judicial process. It is statistically true that most perpetrators are _not_ sociopaths and can be realigned with their community or family - given that that is not some magical chanting, but actual work of restoration and reintegration.

            Personally, I might suggest that a neighborhood council could start the process. Lacking a resolution because the sociopath cannot be turned around, then other engagements are needed. Here in Texas, the Rangers said, "Some men just need hanging." The problem is that you do not want a mob of ignoramuses hanging John Galt for being a warlock or wizard because he is "controlling lightening" and according to the Bible "you should not suffer a witch to live." Just sayin'... Each case must be judged _objectively_ and on its own merits.
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            • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
              The problem is: you need to observe "equal justice under law." Whether that law be in the hands of an inaugurated executive, legislature and judiciary, or a Committee of Safety or Council of Neighbors.

              I never did tell you how the bullying stopped in my case. It stopped with my family moving away.

              I'll never forget the last day he ever laid a hand on me. I tried to retreat into my own yard--and he followed me into it.

              That's when my mother came out and chased him out.

              About five minutes later, I heard a loud cry from another adult woman's voice: "AND YOUR KID STARTS THINGS, TOO!"

              My mother said, "I would not think of lowering myself to answer to you."

              "WELL, GOOD! I'M GLAD YOU'RE MOVING [OUT]!"

              "Well, you can imagine how glad I am about leaving."

              Five minutes later, that same strident voice rang out--only this time it had a far different target:

              "STAY AWAY FROM HIM!"

              And again:

              "STAY AWAY FROM HIM!"

              After nearly four years of her and her husband insisting their son could do no wrong, it came to that.

              But, as I said: after I left, he found other targets. But his pattern of behavior caught up with him in high school. No recommendation for college. So he was working factory jobs. And then one day he stole a car, got busted, and...
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 9 months ago
    we do, Mike -- we avoid accidental involvement
    with "bad actors" like the physically and mentally
    diseased, the violent, the power-seekers, the leftists
    (but I repeat myself), and many of us travel armed.
    we buy home alarm systems and travel in locked
    metal cages, etc.

    and when our preparations fail, we get all huffy
    and ask government to protect us.

    the result? we are harmed more insidiously! the
    cost of personal protection would likely be less
    than the taxes we pay for it, and we know that
    the cost of charity would be better spent privately!!! -- j

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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      I agree that "we" do what you describe in taking normal precautions. I just wonder who "we" are, in that many other people apparently do not; and so we have continued calls for government action to "do something" about Iraq, bicycle lanes, insider trading, airbags, ... On the other hand, it may be that such demands are objectively much fewer today and those few garner big headlines as governments just roll forward by inertia.

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    • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
      Ah, but how do you put a permanent stop to the behavior of the malefactor? Seems to me that if no one corrects his behavior, he will harm more people, until at last he runs into someone who will defend himself and his goods, and maybe the life, liberty or property of another, with deadly force. What, then, will you have to say to the one using the deadly force?
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      • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
        Read about the Redhook Community Justice program in Brooklyn, New York. They bring the perpetrator and the victim together - if the victim allows, of course; and if the perpetrator is there to repent. When the criminal acknowledges the harm, they are unlikely to repeat it.

        Statistically, most people are harmed by people in their own social groups. Career criminals do exist, of course, but even so, by population female burglars (who are rare) tend to predate on _other_ neighborhoods, whereas male burglars victimize their own neighbors. That is true in _every_ neighborhood. The richest communities in America have local burglars.

        We here in the Gulch, and educated people generally, just assume that "everyone" has the same cognitive skills we do. Many do not. Getting perpetrators to _choose to think_ (focus their attention) goes a long way toward changing their reflexive and unreflective behaviors.

        At the same time that I worked as a campus safety officer, I served on the local community corrections board. So, I got two views of the Saturday sessions where a local (private) agency ran "moral reconition" groups. Basically, perpetrators are guided by group discussions to understand the limits of the behaviors that put them in jail in the first place.
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        • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
          Does this work with sex offenders? By that I mean those who commit rape, both forcible and statutory. And most especially those who commit a rape that is both forcible and statutory.

          Question: would you even have an age-of-consent statute? Does laissez-faire criminology even recognize a legal category called "minor": as in "sales of cigarettes to ~ are forbidden by law" or "contributing to the delinquency of" or "reckless endangerment of"?
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      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 9 months ago
        I ask myself and my wife that frequently. I just
        bought a dvd which purports to answer questions
        about self-defense and property-defense parameters
        which tend to keep you out of jail. need to watch
        it soon.

        defending myself or my wife, when genuinely
        threatened, is no problem. property, though, is
        a puzzle. how much is too much defense??? -- j

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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
          Anyone who thinks that they can take a human life without remorse should listen to those who have. For most people who are forced to kill, the experience is traumatic.

          Realize that we do have socially approved outlets for those who lack empathy and compassion. People who can kill without remorse can find places in the police and military. So, the answer you get depends on whom you ask.

          With that caveat, even in combat, it is not the fear of one's own death, but the taking of other lives that is commonly reported as hard to get over.

          If you wake up and someone is in your home, your choices are greatly limited and you did not bring the victim to yourself. Generally, a planfully competent burglar never meets the occupant because the perpetrator acts when the place is available. However, with drugs and stupidity being common, bad things happen to bad people.

          But it is not something to look forward to as apparently many gun lovers seem to. They, too, are criminals looking for an available victim.

          One more case: In one of my criminology classes, we saw a video against capital punishment. One of the interview subjects was the warden of a prison. He was a good old boy with a pot belly and a missing tooth. After two executions, he quit. The victims may have been fully deserving of the justice, but carrying out the sentence was emotionally taxing.

          To me, that speaks to "laissez faire" as the lesser of two evils. It may be better not to execute people, regardless of what they have done, because the act only creates more victims.
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          • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 9 months ago
            Mike, I value your well-informed opinion, and agree
            with you to a very large extent. I have never killed
            any being larger than a dog who chased our sheep,
            and pray/hope/expect that I never will. the same
            goes for my wife.

            we are firm believers in deterrence. my "career"
            was with weapons of the first order. hers was in
            healthcare. we have ADT signs out front, and out
            back. generally, there is someone awake in our home
            24 hours a day.

            though my wife and I discuss eventualities, we fear
            deadly force. we do not relish any harm to any human.
            we do, however, relish harm to us less than harm
            to others.

            some days, we favor the death penalty, thinking
            that the culprit should face what was dealt to the
            victim. we think of this as deterrence, especially
            in this world of widespread information.

            some days, we think that a lifetime behind bars
            at something like $60k/year is a bargain, instead
            of death. self-protection is the driver.

            this whole subject, including Dagny as both heroine
            and murderess, is difficult.

            however incomplete our knowledge is, and
            however amateur our judgment, we must decide
            as we go. better us, than the lackadaisical and
            ill-informed. -- j

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        • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
          The problem is: without some kind of defense, property--especially real estate--ceases to be property and might as well be a common.

          A society like that which the original poster proposes, would not have single-family residential lots held in allodial title. The most anyone would have would be a fee-simple title to a part of a much larger property that someone else, collecting rent from the fee-simple holders, would then defend. The result is either a town government, or a landlord or land-holding company.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 9 months ago
    There was a case recently where a man who had been convicted of a violent crime (armed robbery?) had been forgotten by 'the system'. Basically - he waited at home for them to pick him up and take him to prison, but no one ever came. He called the courthouse to remind them but was still forgotten. Some decades later, someone discovered the clerical error and he was brought before a judge. During that time, he had gotten married, raised a family, done volunteer work with kids, and become a pillar of the community. The judge ruled that since his failure to serve was due to no fault of his own and his subsequent behavior was exceptionally fine, his sentence was cancelled.

    Similarly, a relative of mine - who was something of a reckless teenager - turned 18 and, the next time he was picked up, he was put into a cell overnight with a 300lb man accused of murder. My relative, not being unintelligent, turned over a new leaf and became a lawyer (raised a family, yadda yadda).

    So I think, anecdotally, you have a leg to stand on, Mike Marotta. But 'anecdote' and 'survey' are the beginnings of science, not its endpoint. I think we need to violate custom and look at the whole process of criminality and then conduct some local experiments in different communities on possible solutions.

    For example, it is becoming possible for us to medically identify socio/psychopaths. Now, only a fraction of that population commit crimes but if someone who commits a crime falls into that category then they might be treated differently than someone who committed a crime to get more money for drugs (which should not be illegal in the first place).

    These are just ideas, but your underlying premise that we should re-examine the whole idea of punishments in terms of 'what is effective'. I will note that I have never raised a dog without whopping it when it did something wrong, so I think that punishment will still play a role - but perhaps it will be one of several solutions.

    Jan, dog whopper
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  • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
    The problem is multifaceted and I start with one aspect: the lack of certainty. See in the Gulch, "Junk Science in the Courtroom" here http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/98...

    Our legal system supposedly insists on a presumption of innocence. However, the common belief is just the opposite. If you are not guilty, then why are you on trial?

    Federal prosecutors have a 90% conviction rate. That is not unusual. Local prosecutors who lose do not keep their jobs; and state's attorneys who lose cases do not get re-elected. Defense lawyers who win do garner more clients, but those who lose stay in business.

    Also, of course, the government can marshal several orders of magnitude more resources than a defendant. RICO assures that. But even absent RICO, standing up the government is costly for you but bread-and-butter for them.
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    • Posted by Lucky 9 years, 9 months ago
      A comment on this side issue:
      Evaluating prosecutors and defenders-
      Performance indicators, very popular especially in government. Those in power want a quick measure of what is happening, some quick way to see if staff are doing well or not, so they get a few performance measures concocted. These may even be labeled pretentiously as key performance indicators. Invariably they are misleading. Too often these indicators are 'gamed'.
      There is no substitute for understanding what you want to evaluate. Bu this is too much for politicians and for a good few outside government as well.
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  • Posted by johnmahler 9 years, 9 months ago
    The answer is we can reliably enough predict that storms will precipitate one of water's three states and wind will most likely bring the storm to us. We build roof and wall to keep out the storm. We cannot reasonably predict that every personal encounter will predictably bring us harm or poverty. The wise trader keeps and bears side arms and keeps his establishment well lighted and locked during non business hours. We are less fortunate with the government we have inherited since the Founding Fathers failed to predict the amorality of future Congress politicians and the greed of their electorate.Now our Constitutional roof is shot through with dry rot and amended and adjudicated away shingles. Our walls of faith and independent rugged individualism are cracked and no longer plumb. I fear the slightest gale from largess seeking electorate, who like the big bad wolf will,'huff and puff till I blow your house down' is about to blow over and topple my once beautiful house on a hill. Once the light of freedom burned in the window into the gloomy night of despotic monarchy and its cousin Socialism / Communism. World viewers longed for that exceptional place where I built my house. That place used to be called America. The termites of apathy and popular dissonance ate her timbers for 238 years and a great soul of compassion, creativity, self confidence, and prosperity fled into the terrible darkness hoping to escape where refuge provided no view to the extinguished flame of Liberty, long gone out for want of fuel, could be seen as the shuddering hulk trembles about to fall by the hand of 'We the People', whose failure to love her killed her.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      Nicely said, Painter John; I like your poetry. I endorse your intent, fully. Therefore, allow me to quibble about a point of interest on which most people here would echo your easy claim: "The wise trader keeps and bears side arms and keeps his establishment well lighted and locked during non business hours." (Again, I understand the intention, but...)

      "_Global Outlaws: Crime, Money, and Power in the Contemporary World_ by Carolyn Nordstrom (University of California Press, 2007), brings home the special agony of Africa. Early on, she introduces us to Okidi, a boy of about nine who sells cigarettes – Marlboros most often – one-up in the wartorn outback of Angola. Okidi shows Nordstom the convenience store that fronts him.
      ―This is where I get my cigarettes.‖
      ―Do you have to buy them?‖
      He shook his head no:
      ―The man gives me a packet, and when I have sold all of the cigarettes, I return to give him his share of the money, and get more.‖
      The store proffers a wide range of convenience goods. Even the owner‘s Mercedes is for sale. The store faces an ad hoc open air market where an even wider variety of articles, including pharmaceuticals and art, can be had in a place where, paradoxically, no one has any money.
      ...
      The convenience store was momentarily unattended and Nordstrom waited to meet and interview the owner. Inside was an open bucket for cash as people bought small items on the honor system..."
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      • Posted by johnmahler 9 years, 9 months ago
        Good points. Thank you. I agree but remind you this is a apples & oranges argument in my opinion. War torn outback Angola seems self explanatory since in war and reconstruction, economies are usually combination black market / laissez faire swap meets. Yes, I see your point, but anarchy and arms are individually the most just. A well armed society is a polite society. I think if our present economy, far from ideal with the FED and all, devolves enough, it will become like Angola. That would be a sad day, but with the Jihadist in the People's House, I fear it is closer than I realize.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 9 years, 9 months ago
    A concept I recently ran across is "altruistic punishment". http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_altrui...

    Using Objectivist ethics, how would this concept relate to whether a witness to a crime has a moral obligation to testify in court, even under a credible threat of physical harm from the criminal's friends? Would testifying be, in the philosophical sense of the word, altruistic? Or would it be an act of justice? Or both?
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      I understand "altruistic punishment" to mean something else: punishing someone with no gain to yourself. Sociologists and anthropologists have conducted Game Theory experiments across the globe to discover what people think is fair. In Russia and Saudi Arabia, if someone is not sharing in a fair way (by their standards) some people will give up some part of their own winnings just to see that person lose theirs.
      (See here http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/W... about page 10.)

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      • Posted by $ CBJ 9 years, 9 months ago
        In some experiments Western populations behave the same way. If Person A gets to decide how a sum of money will be divided between him/herself and Person B, and person B does not think the division is fair (say $900 for Person A and $100 for Person B), Person B will often give up his/her share if it means that Person A will also receive nothing.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      You raise an interesting point of jurisprudence: the state compels witnesses to appear; we regard that as crucial to justice - the accused has the right to be confronted by his accusers. If the police cannot protect witnesses, the you have a failed state.

      This happens in New York, Boston, etc - just google "witness found dead." But "failed state" is a crime that dares not hear its name. In other words, if the police cannot protect witnesses, then they have lost their mandate and a higher authority needs to take over and rebuild that government. And that never (seldom) happens.

      "OCTOBER 13, 1994
      Officer Len Davis caught on tape ordering a hit on a civilian
      New Orleans resident Kim Marie Groves witnesses Officer Davis beating up a neighborhood teenager and files a formal complaint with the police. Within hours, a colleague tells Davis about Groves' allegations. The next night Groves is shot dead in front of her house. Davis had planned her hit -- it was inadvertently recorded by federal officials who are investigating a cocaine ring involving Davis."
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 9 months ago
    When did a natural disaster think of pointing its wrath at me? Better still, when did a natural disaster think? I didn't ever realize that hurricanes, earthquakes and the like had volition. Because they don't. Volition, an exclusively human ability, is what separates man from everything else on the planet. It is also why there is good and evil. No natural disaster, or animal can be good or evil within themselves as they have no choice being any way other than the way they are. Only Man has that ability and it's only man that deserves to be punished for choosing wrongly. That is why the insane and the incompetent are treated differently. Their ability to use free-will is impaired. Any other esoteric ramblings are akin to caring how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      See the comments here on "altruistic punishment" Herb. Are you willing to pay with no gain to yourself to see someone else punished? "Punishment" can take many forms, but the term itself colors any outcome. Reintegration is any strategy that brings the offender back into the community. It is not "forgiveness" because reintegration requires that the perpetrator acknowledge the harm they caused and repent to the victim for it. That penance can include repayment in some form. But just flogging people (by whatever means) never achieves much; and really only increases the level of violence in society.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 9 months ago
        How about in the case of murder? Or a serial killer? Can you rehabilitate them to the point where you are assured they won't kill again? Frankly, this reminds me of something out of "Clockwork Orange." Let's say that it was your 11 year old daughter who was raped, tortured and murdered. You think any repentance would be acceptable? As to the question asked: Except for crimes against corporations, crimes are always personal. Yes, in the case of the worst crimes even though they happened to someone else, I wouldn't mind paying for the punishment, and what it achieves is that I would know that if it happened to me there would be retribution. OK, white collar crime, some blue collar crime cries out for the type of "altruistic punishment" as you outlined. But there are degrees of crime and certain people must be taken out of society. Call it punishment or done for the safety of the individuals who comprise society.
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  • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
    "It happened that, as I was watching some of the little people bathing in
    a shallow, one of them was seized with cramp and began
    drifting downstream. The main current ran rather swiftly,
    but not too strongly for even a moderate swimmer. It will
    give you an idea, therefore, of the strange deficiency in
    these creatures, when I tell you that none made the
    slightest attempt to rescue the weakly crying little thing
    which was drowning before their eyes. When I realized
    this, I hurriedly slipped off my clothes, and, wading in at a
    point lower down, I caught the poor mite and drew her
    safe to land." -- _The Time Machine_ by H. G. Wells.

    Criminology might not be about punishing the perpetrator, but rescuing the victim; and often, really, both victims.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
      "The Time Machine," by H. G. Wells.

      Rand even treated this problem. See "The Ethics of Emergencies." When you see someone is about to die, do you refuse to intervene because some principle tells you you lack authority to act?
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  • Posted by Rozar 9 years, 9 months ago
    Perhaps punishment is an appeal to humans capabilities of understanding future discomfort. We protect our selves from floods by building levies, but if the rain was capable of contemplating it's future it would be more hesitant to interfere in our lives.

    Perhaps punishment is the levie that protects us from human nature. We assess reality and take steps to mitigate its detrimental effect on our lives.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago
      Punishment is meant as a retaliation to a harm done in the expectation that knowing of the potential retaliation, it will be more painful than the gain to be obtained by the harmful action. This is called deterrence. It only works for those thinking rationally and for those who actually believe that the retaliation has a high degree of being implemented. When either of those are missing (heat of passion, extenuating circumstances, past examples of lack of retaliation, etc.), then it is nearly useless.
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      • Posted by Retired24-navy 9 years, 9 months ago
        Prison or punishment was originally to deter crime. It was supposed to be harsh so you would not repeat. Then the sociologist and liberals convinced the courts to rehab and change the person to be better. After 20 to 30 years then decided that this did not work, but the system was in place now and no-one could change it. It is still the believe of many in law enforcement that if you make it so bad in prison that most will not recommit crimes to keep out. Those that should face 3 strikes, then life. In Maricopa county AZ, the Sheriff makes criminals sleep in tents, like the military, with no coffee or cigaretts , sandwiched and fruit for lunch. Then must wear pink underwear, both sexes. Recidivism is down. This should be done nationwide and watch the liberals scream.
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
          Sorry, Chief, but you do not have the facts. Like schools and temples, prisons have a variegated history. The modern reform penitentiary was not the creation of progressives and liberals, but of Quakers in the 18th century. Prisoners were locked up in isolation to find communion with God.

          Criminologist Robert Martinson is credited (or blamed) for the "nothing works" theory. (See the full story here:http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/rehab.html The snapshot is this:
          "Robert Martinson's skepticism derived from his role in a survey of 231 studies on offender rehabilitation. Entitled, The Effectiveness of Correctional Treatment: A Survey of Treatment Evaluation Studies ... His views were enthusiastically embraced by the national press, with lengthy stores appearing in major newspapers, news magazines and journals, often under the headline, "Nothing Works!"
          Because of the controversy in 1976, the National Academy of Sciences appointed a Panel to re-evaluate the Lipton, Martinson, and Wilks survey. The Panel's findings were subject to wide interpretation, but central to its conclusion was the comment, "When it is asserted that 'nothing works,' the Panel is uncertain as to just what has even been given a fair trial.""

          Because of the "nothing works mantra, rather than liberal progressive leniency, we have had 30+ years of conservative retribution. "On January 18, 1989, the abandonment of rehabilitation in corrections was confirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court. In Mistretta v. United States, the Court upheld federal "sentencing guidelines" which remove rehabilitation from serious consideration when sentencing offenders." -- ibid.

          The "three strikes" policy has been abused to victimize otherwise harmless offenders. Having committed one crime, when charged later with two or more from one incident, that becomes three - regardless of the severity of the actual (or putative) crimes.

          For most people, prison is pain. Most people suffer when removed from their families and communities. Further humiliation only provides publicity for others who approve of it. "Making liberals scream" does nothing for the original victims. Often, there are no victims, as most prisoners are arrested for victimless crimes. That raises another question entirely.
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        • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
          I admit this is off-topic, but your mention of Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona, prompts this:

          If I had any license to revise the ending of Atlas Shrugged--to address the fate of Eddie Willers, whose eastbound Comet breaks down out of Flagstaff, Arizona, I would make this change:

          Dan Conway takes John Galt's hint and organizes his own independent community. In this he has the cooperation of the sheriff of Maricopa County--the seat of which is, of course, Phoenix, Arizona, the southern end of the Phoenix-Durango RR.

          So when Eddie gets word that the San Fran terminus of the TTRR has fallen into the hands of a warring faction now holding trains for ransom, Eddie sees that as a chance to escape. His plan is to desert the Comet in or near Phoenix. When the Comet doesn't even get that far, he persuades the wagon train that meets the Comet to drive eastward, toward Phoenix. Where Sheriff Joe is there to "process" them.

          Of course, when AS came out, Joe Arpaio was still a kid, and Maricopa County did not have a Sheriff fit to lace up Joe Arpaio's boots. It's different now. Don't you suppose Sheriff Joe would also follow John Galt's lead, after listening to that speech?
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      We know that of the "retribution triangle" - swift, certain, and severe - only certain matters. It does not matter if you will be caught 20 years from now and given a slap on the wrist. Generally, if you KNOW that you WILL be caught, that is enough for the planfully competent criminal. And most of them are. The idea that shoplifters are kleptomaniacs who cannot help themselves simply fails from the evidence.

      As for crimes of passion, I believe that if you catch your wife sleeping with another man and kill her a month later, you did not premeditate the murder but only stayed mad for a month: _mens rea_ does not apply. (Not that I approve of killing people for infidelity, but just saying, so-called "premeditated" murders often are not.)

      The question of fundamental motives is individual. You say that the threat of punishment stops "us" but really you only said that it stops you. Other people have other motives. Empathy is an easy one: you would no more hurt another person than you would harm yourself. (At least, some people say so about themselves...)
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 9 months ago
    We feel differently about losses other people cause, because we do not wish to accept, as our lot in life, that others will initiate force against us. We can handle an involuntary or non-volitional threat. Crime, and its close counterpart called "war," are volitional threats.

    The theory you seem to plump for, calls for the use of force in defense only--and that being immediate self-defense. (Question: what have you to say to me, who have a history of intervening forcefully against a man whom I caught assaulting a woman? I did not place him under "citizen's arrest," but I did chase him away. According to your theory, should I have done that, or not?)

    Without the exertion of force in retaliation, we all would have to go about armed, or else pitch in and hire a contract bodyguard force who would act only when they see a crime in progress, and then only to chase the perpetrator away. But: with force-in-retaliation at the sole discretion of one suffering a real or imagined wrong, the result is a continual state of blood feud. If you read Rand's essay on "The Nature of Government," you will readily recognize that as my main source.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 9 months ago
      Thanks for your reply, Temlakos. I agree that the choice was yours and was contextual. I am not so much "plumping for a theory" as raising the question. I perceive that in general we (or quote "we") tend to seek universal, absolute rules where none exist. It may well be that rather than seeking a perpetrator to punish, we can just write off the loss and walk away. Rather than visiting retribution on a wrong-doer, maybe we should ask the victim how this happened and what they can do to avoid or prevent it in the future. Again I am not asserting those as absolutes, as general mandates, but only as contextual applications of objective considerations.
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