What is Galt's Gultch, really?

Posted by coaldigger 9 years, 10 months ago to History
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I have been reading a number of new biographies of founding fathers and Lynne Cheney’s “James Madison-A Life Reconsidered” strikes me as having special relevance to current events (I see intent on the part of the author and her spouse.) A common theme for each bio to me is that a number of great men that could have been successful in their chosen lives, risked everything, absorbed unbelievable public abuse and loss of fortune to create a Republic based on unalienable, individual rights.
This has caused me to wonder what did Rand really mean by Galt’s Gultch? I have, like most, always thought that it was a “solution” where men of the mind went on strike to rid themselves of the leaches that had usurped the power to control society on the false premise of altruism. The strategy was to let the system collapse quickly so there would still be producers that could rebuild it. I have never known a John Galt-like person and he always seemed to be a character out of Marvel Comics. I have known a few people like Hank and Dagny that held out until the end and I find them most believable.
What if Galt’s Gultch is not a “solution” but a “warning”? A warning to the leaches that they are driving the producers into hiding mentally, not physically, and gradually instead of abruptly. A warning to the men of the mind that they cannot afford to focus on being producers of goods and services but that they must lay down their science books like Jefferson and Franklin, their academic pursuits like Madison and Monroe their production of commercial goods like Washington, their financial acumen, like Hamilton and get into the realm of the political refurbishing of our Great Experiment in self-government.
I have always thought that politics was so corrupt and dirty that no truly qualified person would ever seek elected office. Perhaps too many have been of a like mind.


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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 10 months ago
    Thanks for the mention of the Lynne Cheney biography of James Madison. I will find it and read it. Lynne Cheney impressed me when I heard her on the radio some years ago. (See here: http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/2011/...) As for The Gulch and Rand's intentions, you can find her journals and diaries and margin notes in the books she read via the Ayn Rand Institute. The error to avoid is "Ayn Rand denounced socialism. I denounce socialism. Therefore Ayn Rand advocated something else that I believe in." For one thing, she had no love for the rural country or the people who live there. ("Cracker barrel conservatives" was one of her epithets, invoking the image of men playing checkers at the country store.) She was a big city girl all her life. In her novel, Atlas Shrugged, The Gulch was a consequence of dire emergency, not a permanent community.

    As for the persona of John Galt, while it is true that he is drawn as an epic hero, remember that in the Valley at a dinner party, Hugh Akston says that Galt, Ragnar, and Frisco were "normal men." They were not super-heroes, but only everyday people who were not encumbered with bad thinking, wrong assumptions, internal. contradictions. John Galt was a normal man, an example of what anyone could be with good thinking.

    The proper spelling is "leech" not "leach". They are two different words. Your spell checker did not catch it.

    "The strategy was to let the system collapse quickly so there would still be producers that could rebuild it." You need to read the book carefully. Galt says that he did not know if it would take generations. They were all surprised at how quickly the economy fell apart. You have to face the reality of mixed-premise producers such as Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and George Soros. And you have to face the absolute fact that those three in particular and the Fortune 1000 in general probably did read _Atlas Shrugged_ and rejected it in toto, even if they accepted some specific details.
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    • Posted by RobertFl 9 years, 10 months ago
      Excellent response. Thanks for posting it.

      Just to be a little pecker... the smell checker properly checked 'leach' and found it smelled correct. It is not its job to determine if it was used properly.

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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 10 months ago
    One of the first decisions to make is whether to use inclusionary or exclusionary criterion. Is the Gulch a place where 'producers and people of like mind' are included or a place where 'moochers are excluded'. I am in favor of the latter: I like the Gulch as a place where there is a simple list of exclusionary criteria, but other than that all philosophies are welcome. (I do not see eye-to-eye with many of the people in this gulch, but I suspect that you would make good - and interesting - neighbors.)

    Jan
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      A premise I am considering is that the Gulch is not a physical place but a mental state where one has withdrawn, voluntarily or not, one's mind from production in protest of being cast as a slave to non-producers. Neighbors in misery may not be all that good.
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    • Posted by gafisher 9 years, 10 months ago
      It doesn't have to be an "either-or," Jan. In AS, it was inclusionary in the sense of Galt personally inviting residents and exclusionary in both the remote location and the "refractor ray" mirage hiding the Gulch, as well as immigration rules which required a pledge of secrecy. Those rules also required immigrants to be strikers (in the AS sense) prepared to pursue gainful employment within the Gulch.

      I very much agree with coaldigger's premise that Galt's Gulch is a place not of geography but of the mind, to me an allegory for withholding the sanction of the victim while simultaneously favoring the self-reliant.
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 9 years, 10 months ago
    The Gulch is a place where persons understand that if there is to be product, (which is what people live on), there must be a free mind.
    Most people confuse the product of the mind with the mind behind the product.
    The Gulch is a place of safe haven for folks who understand this concept and desire to remove themselves from those who would view the fruit of their labors as "fruit to be plucked from the collective tree" for "the overall good" of society.
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  • Posted by Jackalope 9 years, 10 months ago
    In order to be taken seriously as a warning, the leaches would have to have something to fear. At this time, they have nothing. No men of the mind have left. They're corrupt influence and power continues to grow. Republicans spend a lot...Democrats spend even more. Neither is worried about any threat. You have to be able to execute a threat for it to be taken seriously.
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    • Posted by j_IR1776wg 9 years, 10 months ago
      "No men of the mind have left" There is no way to prove a negative. How would you calculate how many putative John Galts have put aside their ideas, shrugged, and walked away knowing that the collective would steal the fruits of their labor. It might take a while but America will look exactly as Rand predicted at the end of AS.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
        Exactly. Many have withheld their ideas and efforts out of the futility of even trying to comply with stupid rules that they are required to comply with. Besides leaches have no minds of their own and can be ignored. It is the leaders, the benefactors of the obedience of the leaches that need to be stopped at any cost. The men of the mind need to redirect their efforts to enterprises that eliminate them.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 10 months ago
          Count me among them, coaldigger. With a name like that, you and I should become quick friends. I have been on every side of the energy equation. My family's name is Brenner, which means one that burns. We trace our lineage back to Germans who mined and burned coal way back in the 1300s.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 10 months ago
    The Gulch in AS was a sanctuary, concealed from the rest of the world, password-protected and self-sufficient, with resources at hand, food production, and John Galt's motor supplying all the energy needed. It worked fine for a limited number of population. The valley was spacious enough that Dagny even considered running a train through it. It would tide the most valuable people through long enough, if the outside world went completely to hell. These people were handpicked by Galt as the movers and shakers of the world, without whose talents civilization would break down, and whose values and virtues were congruent with his own. Is it really the case that out of 7 billion people, a mere 70, or even 700, could run everything? Was Atlantis a modern-day Noah's Ark for those whose psycho-epistemology most matched Rand's own? Do we, today, in the real world, have a critical mass?
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      The way I see it is that in the world of the Objectivist, merit should determine the outcome of every event. In our present world, outcomes are determined by ability to game the system. The secret weapon of the gamers is altruism. The enablers are religious leaders and secular progressives. The meritorious are enslaved by their own "goodness" and to set themselves free they need to reject society's definition of the common good and religious teachings and promises of an afterlife. That seems to me to be too many hurdles for people that have there heads down, building things instead of contemplating philosophic issues to ever form a critical mass. This is why I have a concern about the partial withdrawal to the Gulch by the many while the few that have made a full escape age in place.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 10 months ago
        You make a few interesting points, coaldigger. As an example, a good friend of mine is a deacon at a local Catholic church and runs a place where the homeless not only can get a dinner but also get some life coaching to get employed again. He wanted me and others to participate in a golf tournament fundraiser tomorrow for his charity. As effective as his charity has been at get life's loafers back into productive society, I just had to turn down going golfing (even though I really enjoy golf). It was a really tough battle against altruism because I did have a self-interest (golf) and, despite the altruistic nature of the charity, this charity at least was doing work to reduce the number of moochers.
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  • Posted by BradA 9 years, 10 months ago
    Unfortunately I think you have misinterpreted the logistics of Ayn's strike concept but you did get its purpose right. Although the plotline centers on the removal of the contributions of the "men of the mind" to society, her strike required the participation of a critical mass of ALL of society's "producers." This included anyone of competence who was enabling the "engine" to continue running. Think Eddie Willers and all of the other train crews abandoning their posts. The underlying concept is not about the 1 per centers throwing a hissy fit, but about the freedom of men (and women) to produce and exchange what they produce without outside influence from the government or anyone else. The socialism that she hated is a system where the government tells you both what and how much you are to produce as well as what and how much you consume. Galt's Gulch was intended as the opposite to this approach.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      Unfortunately The (mental)Gulch accepts partial strikers which is what I am alluding to. Even the diminishing efforts of the producers is so much more system sustaining than the bleeding effect of the feeble parasites that collapse will happen too slow and there will be no one left to rebuild. The holdouts like Rearden and Dagny will not follow Galt anymore than they did Mr. Thompson but their drive and energy will ebb,
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 10 months ago
        Many holdouts are partial strikers (including me) because they can't quite afford to strike indefinitely. I am 47 years old, and I am pretty close to being able to completely strike, but I'm not quite there yet financially.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 10 months ago
    I find that most of the "men of the mind" have not shrugged, but rather have turned into moochers and looters. They slide into crony capitalism very easily. Look at Warren Buffett, George Soros, Bill Gates, nearly all Hollywood actors, etc., etc., etc.

    I would put the Koch brothers as the modern day Hank Rearden.

    The Gulch was a plot device. I don't find it rational as a mechanism for truly bringing about a return to what America used to be. I'm afraid if it is fully lost, it will usher in centuries of serfdom.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 10 months ago
      I completely disagree with you. Brain drain is one of the most effective ways of getting governments to wake up. History does not support your opinion.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
        The first time I encountered the term, brain-drain, was in reference to professionals leaving Great Britain and coming to the US due to nationalization of industries and socialized medicine. Oops! Perhaps the drainage led to Margaret Thatcher and a mini reversal but that would not work for us now.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 10 months ago
        Please explain. I'm not following how you have come to that conclusion.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 10 months ago
          England had a huge brain drain in the 1800s to the US because we had a superior patent and financing system in place. New Zealand had a huge brain drain in late 20th century, as did India and China. Many latin american countries. Some nations turned around, others have not. But even the ones who have not, put in capital controls. Venezuela has done it, we're starting now. ever taken a intl flight and gave an oath you are not traveling with more than 10,000 dollars of negotiable instruments?
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          • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 10 months ago
            I would have thought that a more effective example would simply be labeled "capital flight" - the result of businesses moving their assets to lower tax states/countries. It's one of the reasons Apple isn't a US company. It's one of the reasons Google's founder dropped US citizenship. It's why many major corporations are moving their headquarters out of California.
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  • Posted by flanap 9 years, 10 months ago
    You're gonna love this...Galt's Gulch is where the shadow elites will reside until the population has been reduced 80% by the policies of those they backed in the first place, then when the 80% is gone, they will return and setup shop as they deem necessary.

    This is what some think the unstated message was of AS.

    Sounds interesting since that is exactly where the shadow elite want to take us and AS has been rather on task in terms of prognostication to this point.
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    • Posted by Zero 9 years, 10 months ago
      Who's reducing the population by 80%? That's not an OBJ position. There is no population problem. Nor a problem with the average man.
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      • Posted by flanap 9 years, 9 months ago
        You are saying there is no problem with the population; however, the problem is when those in power to do something about reducing the population have the power to do so. They also have a problem with average man...but so does God.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 10 months ago
        I believe flanap is saying that some critics of AS think that is the message of AS, and I think flanap believes this is, in fact, the agenda of the "shadow elite" in the real world.
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  • Posted by TexanSolar 9 years, 10 months ago
    Galt's Gulch was (or will be) a self-sustaining community. The "machine" provided power and they had an adequate water supply. They grew their own food and traded among themselves.
    A Galt's Gulch like community will endure when the dollar collapses or the Grid goes down.
    It's a shame that Galt's machine was not thermodynamically possible. My solar collector design, the Bradford collector, will provide all power and water requirements for Off-Grid Communities more economical than electricity and water from public utilities. www.offgridtexan.net
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  • Posted by $ Snezzy 9 years, 10 months ago
    It's mental, not physical. I'm old enough to have followed the Minerva Reef project and the boat that sank in the Hudson. Rand was dismissive of such efforts, sort of as if she were saying, "That's not what I said." She found herself consistently having to answer the question, "Is Atlas shrugging?" and her answer was always no.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 10 months ago
    politics could be honorable, and once was -- just look at the folks whom you mentioned!!! -- j
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      It is time for honorable men to put down their tools long enough to right this ship.
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      • Posted by NealS 9 years, 10 months ago
        I put my tools down in December 2001 (retired from working 8 hours or more a day). In 2009 I sold my business and put all of my tools down when I felt my time to contribute was over. I was fearful that Atlas Shrugged was now becoming non-fiction. To my surprise I was right. In 2010 that business failed as the new owners weren't willing to give it what I gave it for the previous 20 years. Just where is that valley in the mountains in Colorado? I'm ready to go, even though I've kind of duplicated it right where I'm at. Perhaps I could use it for a summer place. It's too late for me to help right the ship, but I'll do my part in taking it down. The sooner we get to the bottom the sooner we can start the recovery.
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        • Posted by $ stargeezer 9 years, 10 months ago
          Right on NealS! My search is on and after going on strike in 2010 myself, I'm looking for my Valley" right now. I can't wait to shed myself of all the influences of "The Peoples Republic of Illinois". Too long I've awoke in the morning to only find that new limits were passed limiting my rights by the statehouse all without anybody knowing about them. Passed in the dead of the night by Mouch's spiritual brethren.

          I truly believe that the trip to the bottom will be much, much shorter than the rise back to the top. When BO was running (lieing) to be elected, I was in every chat room warning what life would be like under his rule.

          Too many wanted a historical president instead of a man who was fit to do the job. So now we have a president that's going to go down in history as historically bad president. One who rode on the coattails of the men who served the nation - now he demands that we serve him.
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