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  • Posted by hrymzk 10 years ago

    Actually, the pendulum for industrialization is swinging back in our direction. The basic factor is our new levels of energy production. It makes our products more competitive.
    It's true about Detrot. The unions priced themselves out of the market. Auto production is alive and well in the Southern States.
    It's well documented that there are hundreds of thousands of manufacturing job that go unfilled in US factories.
    That's because manufacturing is hi tech with CNC machines and such. Requires Math skills and more education.
    We have >1,000,000 kids dropping out of high school every year. Because the adult establishment doesn't have the brains to show the kids why they should stay in school.
    IF the kids stayed in school, got education, and better paying jobs, then they'd be able to afford better built American made products. I've seen too much poorly made Chinese stuff myself. Get education. Work smarter. Buy American.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years ago
      Thanks! I appreciate the insights. This problem has many facets. I agree that the young people who pursue computer programming do not do so in order to run CNC machines. But some do. We have glamorized retail sales via websites and pushed factory work to the side.

      Also, see my comments about home ownership. Moving to a southern state to get a job in an automotive factory is not an option if you are tied to land like a serf. Moreover, it is something of a fallacy on your part to think in terms of kids and the adult establishment. Anyone can go to a community college and learn CNC programming. If you are 40 now, you can work at that for another 30 years, easily, 20 certainly. Factories are not necessarily physically demanding anymore.

      We all have stories. I went to the locally-owned mom and pop hardware store and bought an American product. It was missing screws. I took it back, went to the big box store and bought one from China: perfect.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 10 years ago
    Off course collapse is the goal, of the dollar at least. Who does Obama meet with in the Oval Office - Soros.
    We have been warned for years about the increasing trade deficits, but no one listened. The so-called middle class continued to spend and charge. I have known people who had over 20 credit cards, maxed out or nearly so. How, do the banks allow it, I have no idea. This is how weare able to buy more than we export.
    Under the teachings in the government schools, students are told they should not lower themselves to take jobs paying less than $100,000 per year. No experience, little to contribute, but a strongly held belief by many who subsequently never leave home. Do they ask what they can do to produce an income - no, they wait for that dream job to fall in their entitled laps - unless parents cut them off.
    Sure, there are job openings, because we have no qualified candidates who possess a work ethic, a willingness to start at the bottom and work up, and a basic ability to communicate.
    Yes, there is industry in the South, because the South is less tied up by union requirements, in spite of Obama's efforts to make the South unionized.
    No matter how they talk about preserving the middle class, the D.C. bunch work to eliminate it in favor of socialism - the poor and their well off rulers.
    Why were incandescent light bulbs replaced by Congress with Chinese toxic CFLs? Someone's palm got greased, but the workers got hurt. Next on the list is Obama's war on coal.
    The dream of home ownership is almost down the tubes.Despite all the D.C. talk about making mortgages affordable to all, they are working behind the scenes to do away with property rights via Agenda 21.
    Yes, they are out to seize the 401K funds, and would likely be very close had Pelosi not lost the speakership. It was already in committee.
    Anyone who thinks things can go on as is, has been drinking the Kool-Aid.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years ago
    I have to disagree with the thesis; and I deny that the many claims are facts. The article is just 18th century Mercantilism in modern dress. "Basically, we are buying far more stuff from the rest of the world than they are buying from us. That means that far more money is constantly leaving the country than is coming into the country". Adam Smith exploded that myth over 200 years ago. Allow me to say that you could make the same claims about your neighborhood, city, county, or state. We have a lot of "bedroom communities." If you look at just the cash flows -and ignore their causes- it would seem that "people in Steel City" are pouring money in "Sleepytown" and then that the people in Sleepytown are "buying more from other places" than they sell to those other places. Thus Sleepytown goes into debt while Oil City, Boomtown, Siliconia, and other places have piles and piles of Sleepybucks - which the Sleepies must borrow back to stay alive. (And remember: Steel City is in the same boat as they pour dollars into Sleepyville's cheap labor markets.) Put that way, this "trade deficit" nonsense is exposed as a fallacy.

    Another fallacy is the myth of the middle class. No one wants to be poor. No one wants to be crude. And we dislike the rich. They are snobs and sissies. So, we call ourselves "middle class." In truth the middle three quintiles are statistically the "middle class" - but would be so in any economic picture. More to the point in classical economics the "middle class" consists of owners of small businesses and self-employed professionals. It is defined (following Marx) by who owns the tools of production. But in Objective economics we all have the same toolbox: our brains. It is just that some people take care of their tools, buy good tools, make new tools no one thought of before, and so on.

    The myth of the middle class was sold to laborers who enjoyed cars, television sets, two-week paid vacations, healthcare benefits, company picnics, etc., etc. Part of that was the "American dream" of owning your own home, i.e., being a landed serf, unable to move if the local markets decline. America was most vibrant when people could and did move where the markets were. Consider that the Federal government made mortgages attractive by letting homeowners take deductions on interest paid. It was not out of the goodness of their hearts that the government did that. They paved the road to serfdom. I admit that we made our money, buying a home in 1991 and selling it in 1998. We lucked out and we have been renters ever since.

    Yet another fallacy is the "good paying job." Defined how? How much should you be able to consume without forethought in order to know that you have have "a good paying job"? Moreover, it was those "good paying jobs" that destroyed Detroit and the Great Lakes rustbelt. You could get a higher wage without a higher education. We had three or four generations of parents who could not help their kids with their homework -- but it did not matter because they could help their kids get a job working in a factory, a human reduced to a machine. Or do you expect a society of doctors and lawyers and accountants to support itself without factory laborers? ... Oh... back to the problem...

    Indeed, America does support itself - and we export.
    http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/to...

    Indeed, the rules of double-entry bookkeeping prevent you from any "balance of payments" problem.

    What you buy is worth more than what it costs. Thus, by buying Chinese goods, we become richer. Of course, they do, too, because it costs them less to produce than they sell it for. Both sides profit. Why do you have a problem with that?

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    • Posted by gtebbe 10 years ago
      MikeMarotta, I am happy you brought up this aspect of the article. I do not like sweeping generalizations. We have all heard these top-down arguments many times. So what is Tyler Durden bringing to the table that is new? What resources is he paraphrasing?

      I lived in Detroit for a few years in the 70s, and it was a hell-hole even back then. Detroit City Council has been plagued with corruption as far back as 1912. You can read the story here: http://www.dbusiness.com/DBusiness/May-J...
      The Brewster-Douglass Housing Projects were never a good idea, even as Eleanor Roosevelt dug the first shovel load at it's ground-breaking in 1935. Crime a the Projects was a problem almost from the start.

      Empty malls are being attributed to changes is buying preferences; Amazon, ebay, musiciansfriend.com are much easier to buy merchandise from especially when money is harder to come by.

      "...we just have the Federal Reserve create new money out of thin air." Really? Who is this "we?" Me? You? I have no power to have the Federal Reserve do anything. "Our current debt-fueled lifestyle is dependent on this cycle continuing." That is interesting. I don't have a debt-fueled lifestyle. I personally don't know of anyone who does. According to Durden, "...we have lost tens of thousands of businesses, millions of jobs and our economic infrastructure has been absolutely gutted..." because of "...a total trade deficit...of more than 8 trillion dollars...". That is really interesting. The unemployment of folks I know, including myself, is not a direct result of a trade deficit.

      Tyler Durden's article is a good example of logical fallacies at their finest. The last sentence gives it away; "In the end, the rest of the nation is going to suffer the same fate as Detroit unless Americans are willing to stand up and fight for their economy while they still can."

      Thank you for your consideration.
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      • Posted by plusaf 10 years ago
        gtebbe... Thanks for YOUR comments! I subscribe to MarketMinder and enjoy their 'wait a minute...' analyses of MSM headlines.

        Trade deficits are bad? What 'manufacturing happens in Las Vegas that balances ITS 'balance of trade' with the rest of the country? Let alone Puerto Rico... or... many of the States of the US...?

        Recently the 'upper management' of China have realized that without a strong 'service economy,' their Manufacturing World Focus won't carry them far into the future.

        Recently bought some Hanes(R) briefs. Hecho in Vietnam. I guess China isn't even competitive enough any more.

        C'mon.... If you draw a 'boundary' around the entire earth, the NET 'balance of trade' is ZERO, though not many people can see the point.

        Do we complain about balance of trade or trade deficits between States in the US? If not, where's the sense of bitching about international BOT 'deficits.'

        If anything, we are so rich we can send our money out of the country to buy all kinds of shit from countries willing to sell it to us WHO can't find enough other markets, even inside THEIR own countries, for their own 'production.'

        Sorry I brought it up...
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    • Posted by jsw225 10 years ago
      What a load of crap. Assuming that there is no printing press for the currency, like the local governments, county governments, state governments and federal governments currently don't have, trade imbalances are very real, and very scary.

      The money doesn't magic itself into existence to be sent elsewhere. It needs to be traded into the community first before it can be spent. The communities, from the Family Size, all the way up to the Country size need to be providing value to other people in order to create wealth or trade for wealth before they can then trade it out. What do you think will happen when all of our country's money is being spent in China? In Saudi Arabia?

      Not a single person in this world can consume more than they produce. Anybody that tries will soon find their bank telling them, "Account Overdrawn." And the United States is headed towards that day.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years ago
      I agree with everything you're saying, BUT does any of it negate the need to balance the federal budget? To me everything that is real and a problem in the OP's link is a consequence of a fiscal deficit.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years ago
    Makes one wonder why our gov even started this and want it to continue. Do they do any good at all? It seems a collapse is the goal.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years ago
      How does importing goods cause collapse? In order to buy, you must have something of value to offer. You buy because what you get is worth more to you than what you pay. Conversely, the seller also profits. 100% self-sufficiency is the road to poverty because you cannot possible produce everything better than everyone else. In fact, it is an algebraic truth that even if you could, it is still more efficient (profitable) to divide your labor and focus on one task at a time. Adam Smith discussed this in 1775, but spoke of French wine and English sheep.
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  • Posted by Notperfect 10 years ago
    It did not take long for those of the love of money to rear their head. Greed was their ultimate goal and no one would stand in their way. Competition was bad because all could participate and when those geniuses seen this problem as they call it then they decided for you and I. They decided. So John got up and left the building.
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  • Posted by alonzocobb 10 years ago
    To figure out what's happening, you need to look deeper than proximate causes. The fact is, manufacturing jobs were going to decrease under any scenario, because economies of scale are decreasing, meaning that the number of people needed to make something is less than before. That's what progress is all about. It's a fool's errand to think that the jobs that our parents had will still be there when we're ready to go to work. That song has been playing out for over 30 years now, and still people are shocked. When you can manufacture something with a 3D printer, how many people do you think you'll need for your manufacturing operations? And why should a businessman pay up to $100 per hour for a job that costs only $10 overseas, even if they're only half as efficient as Americans?!? The very essence of Ayn Rand's philosophy is that one depends on oneself, not others. That means that it's our job to figure out how we are going to survive in the coming economy, not to complain about things that we have no control over. The fact is, those jobs are NEVER coming back, and shrinking economies of scale will ensure that the remaining jobs will continue to shrink. In the late 1800s, some 60% of the population was engaged in agriculture. Today, it's about 2%, but we're producing more agricultural output than ever. The same thing is happening in manufacturing. We need to be looking for what's going to replace manufacturing. That's the sweet spot.
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  • Posted by illucio 10 years ago
    There is a mixed concept of what economy means nowadays. For it´s true that there´s local economies and national economies, today´s world is more and more a globalized economy and yes, the world view cannot be shunned even from a local perspective.

    The world "market" of production makes my nation a peripheric one, undeveloped country that, if we as argentines only knew to full extent, could jump to being a developed country in no time. Argentina is the soy capital of the world, our main economy thrives on the sale of soy to China and the world, over the historical production of meats and grains, dairy and wine. Despite this truth, this change, the production industry of argentina is that of the turn of the last century´s one; raw. Our industry is third rate, we manufacture very little compared to what we sell off straight from the earth. Even aluminum industries are behind still, we basically "feed" the world, we´re a farm like country. We may have jewels, diamonds, water, copper and other natural resources that are also being exploited but, like US Southern States, we´re a conservative agricultural nation (we even exploit fossil fuels, we export them). CFK´s administration and her husband´s before her still maintain the basic principles of the late XIX Centuries aristocracy. Low wages to exploit natural resources and sell them to the best bidding international market. Our inflation is only beneficial for these few landholders, who produce in argentine pesos and sell in Yen, Euros and Dollars. Truely post Taylorism at it´s best. The State of Argentina is dressing up as a "People´s State", but executes as neo liberalist one. They can´t fool me.

    China, on the other hand, has rich land. But as we all know, the have something that is both a problem and a solution at the same time, demographics. This reality allows them to have a very high demand for labor, so they pay low wages for production and, thus, later sell for lower prices than US, European or other central countries and regions. How do you compete with that?

    The answer is simple, you don´t. Either you advance more and more in upgrading factories with machines or you lower wages and turn the US into something other than what it´s always been. Argentina or China (extreme capitalism with very low wages). This is not healthy for the US economy for the inner US market has always been an example world wide, and the offering of financial access and power to the people not only is healthy for the people, but for the economy. But today, to buy Nike shoes is not really a patriot act if you come to think of it. Not even Mickey Mouse of Coca Cola are produced by Americans, so go figure.

    The new capitalism, therefore, isn´t an industrial one per say. It´s just the next step, based on the new sciences industries like Google, Microsoft and others are now, as we speek, employing foreign help. Why? Because the Government doesn´t train people to think, it trains them to do. And these new industries are about thinking first, some just thinking only. The new currency isn´t blue collar power, the new worker ants are all white collar workers. And though "the working man" will never be extinct, he shall become more and more rare. So ideas and the patenting of them is the new currency, the new economy, the new industry. And education plays an important role here, for these companies are not only hiring engineers, "hard" scientists and economists as their white collar assets, no. Graphic designers, sociologists, psychologists and creative thinkers are now just as important as a computer geek. Thus is the way of the future...
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years ago
    This whole issue comes down to the fiscal deficit. The trade deficit is just an effect of the fiscal deficit. The shift away from mfg may be completely unrelated and not be a problem. The deficit, though, is a huge problem.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years ago
    Interesting analysis. Two scenarios.

    1) The dire analysis depends on our nation "playing fair" - in so much as honoring the bonds that we have sold to China. I think it entirely possible that this admin may just renege on those. It would mean a shock, but I think that that might actually be a good thing as we would bring back the factories in the US.

    2) This admin will deflate the currency in order to pay off those debts. This is the far worse of the two in that not only will the foreign debt be paid off with dollars worth less, but all of our dollars, and assets based in dollars, will fall in value as well. This would trigger another devastating depression. If this happens before 2022, it will be severe indeed.

    By 2022, the echo boom (the children of the baby boomers) will start to reach their peak spending years. At that time, there will be an upswing in the overall economy. It might be able to absorb the inflation caused by printing more money. We currently are in the hangover of the growth from the baby-boom. We keep injecting more "stimulus" but the fact is, fewer of us are spending money on things like new cars, upsized houses and all that that entails. Adding to the slowdown, incessant gov't borrowing to fool the mind numbed that everything is OK, and we are setting the stage for economic disaster.

    If you have real-estate, it will be taxed at ever higher rates to feed the gov't. If you have retirement savings these will be confiscated to feed the gov't. If you have stocks these will first be taxed and then confiscated, all to feed the gov't. And this will all occur soon - absolutely if a D is elected pres again. If it doesn't look like a D is going to be elected, then it will happen in the next 3 yrs under some guise of national emergency.
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    • Posted by RevJay4 10 years ago
      Robbie..to kick off the "national emergency" ruse all that needs to happen is that conservatives be elected in droves in Nov. At that point, the administration will know the game is afoot and find a reason to institute martial(?) law. I have been expecting this to happen once the "resident" was elected in '08. With the election fraud rampant in the '12 election, I continue to believe this will happen prior to the elections in '16. The Ds cannot afford to have the Rs come into complete power and expose the fraud and corruption of the last 6 years. Maybe its just me, but that's my theory. I may be proven wrong, I certainly hope so.
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      • Posted by 10 years ago
        RevJay, The "D's" and the "R's" work for the same Masters: The Banking Elite. The self-proclaimed elite enjoy controlling both sides of any argument. Therefore, don't fall, jnto the trap of 'D' versus 'R', pro-life versus pro-choice, pro-gun versus anti-gun, etc, etc.

        It's about the Elite versus the commoner, e.g., you, me and anyone else who's not a banker or politician.
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        • Posted by RevJay4 10 years ago
          Yep, knew that about the D and R thing, meant the conservatives. Not the RINOs. I'm figuring if enough conservatives get in, the left will freak and push the ball a little quicker towards complete takeover. Still think there is little chance of '16 elections taking place, peacefully.
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