Atlas Shrugged, Part 1 Chapter 9: The Sacred and the Profane

Posted by nsnelson 8 years, 9 months ago to Books
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Summary: Dagny and Hank converse about their relationship. James Taggart “stoops down” to Cherryl Brooks. Dagny and Hank converse more back in Philadelphia. Mr. Mowen discusses the Equalization of Opportunity Bill and other Big Government ideas with Owen Kellogg. Dagny turns the John Galt Line back into the Rio Norte Line, and then consoles herself with Hank, making plans for the future. They decide to go on a vacation, then decide to explore the 20th Century Motor Company, where they found the model of the motor, the paper plans for which were just over 10 years old. They left to seek the inventor.

Start by reading the first-tier comments, which are all quotes of Ayn Rand (some of my favorites, some just important for other reasons). Comment on your favorite ones, or others' comments. Don't see your favorite quote? Post it in a new comment. Please reserve new comments for Ayn Rand, and your non-Rand quotes for "replies" to the quotes or discussion. (Otherwise Rand's quotes will get crowded out and pushed down into oblivion. You can help avoid this by "voting up" the Rand quotes, or at least the ones you especially like, and voting down first-tier comments that are not quotes of the featured book.)

Atlas Shrugged was written by Ayn Rand in 1957.

My idea for this post is discussed here:

http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...


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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
    James Taggart to Cherryl Brooks: “Rearden. He didn’t invent smelting and chemistry and air compression. He couldn’t have invented his Metal but for thousands and thousands of other people. His Metal! Why does he think it’s his? Why does he think it’s his invention? Everybody uses the work of everybody else. Nobody ever invents anything.
    She said, puzzled, “But the iron ore and all those other things were there all the time. Why didn’t anybody else make that Metal, but Mr. Rearden did?”
    “He didn’t do it for any noble purpose, he did it just for his own profit. He’s never done anything for any other reason.”
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
    James Taggart to Cherryl Brooks: “How do you know what’s good, anyway? Who knows what’s good? Who can ever know? There are no absolutes – as Dr. Pritchett has proved irrefutably. Nothing is absolute. Everything is a matter of opinion.”
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
    James Taggart to Cherryl Brooks: “Because she [Dagny] thinks she’s so good. What right has she to think it? What right has anybody to think he’s good? Nobody’s any good.”
    “You don’t mean it, Mr. Taggart.”
    “I mean, we’re only human beings – and what’s a human being? A weak, ugly, sinful creature, born that way, rotten in his bones – so humility is the one virtue he ought to practice… Pride is the worst of all sins, no matter what he’s done.”
    “But if a man knows that what he’s done is good?”
    “Then he ought to apologize for it.”
    “To whom?”
    “To those who haven’t done it.”
    “I…I don’t understand.”
    “Of course you don’t. It takes years and years of study in the higher reaches of the intellect.”
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    • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
      I see this argument a lot. "If you don't see things my way, you just aren't sufficiently enlightened." Frequently, but not always, accompanied by name-calling.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
    Dagny: “Hank, do you know what that motor would have meant, if built?”
    He chuckled briefly. “I’d say: about ten years added to the life of every person in this country – if you consider how many things it would have made easier and cheaper to produce, how many hours of human labor it would have released for other work, and how much more anyone’s work would have brought him.”
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  • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
    Mr. Mowen to Owen Kellogg: “Why are they all running to Colorado?” he asked. “What have they got down there that we haven’t got?”
    The young man grinned. “Maybe it’s something you’ve got that they haven’t got.”
    “What?” The young man did not answer. “I don’t see it. It’s a backward, primitive, unenlightened place. They don’t even have a modern government. It’s the worst government in any state. The laziest. It does nothing – outside of keeping law courts and a police department. It doesn’t do anything for the people. It doesn’t help anybody. I don’t see why all our best companies want to run there.”
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    • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
      I like this. "Maybe it's something you've got (i.e., Big Government) that they haven't got." And then the description of small government: law courts and police. What would that be like....sigh... And even there, at least some police and military could be privatized.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
    “There was a remnant of light on the hill, but a blue haze was moving in upon the valleys, and the red and gold of the leaves was spreading to the sky in strips of sunset.”
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Sometimes I just really enjoyed her prose. She really is a good story teller. Sometimes some of the dialogue feels contrived (she was trying to communicate her philosophy, after all), but other times she is very poetic.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
    James Taggart to Cherryl Brooks: “I’ll tell you…I’ll tell you something…unhappiness is the hallmark of virtue. If a man is unhappy, really, truly unhappy, it means that he is a superior sort of person.”
    …. “What, Mr. Taggart? What is it you want?”
    “Oh, there you go! The moment you ask, ‘What is it?’ you’re back in the crude, material world where everything’s got to be tagged and measured. I’m speaking of things that can’t be named in materialistic words… the higher realms of the spirit, which man can never reach… What’s any human achievement, anyway? The earth is only an atom whirling in the universe – of what importance is that bridge to the solar system?”
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
      Their conversation is a chilling look at evil.
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      • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
        I have to admit, I don't see Jim Taggart as evil. The concepts, yes.

        Jim, I see as ... misguided? Probably a better word for it, but he was just a product of his education, which is even scarier in its own way. The bad thing about JT is that he was misguided AND in a position of power (as CEO of the railroad). There are a lot of people out there who got the same type of education, and took it to heart with no real thought or skepticism. Some in power, but many many more who keep them in power (or allow them to stay in power).
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        • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 9 months ago
          Vetteguy, think about the end of the book when Jim Taggart was enjoying watching Galt being tortured. That's not misguided; that's evil. Especially when you consider the reasons he wanted to see him tortured.
          Edit: clarity and to correct autocheck!
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          • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
            Good point, Mamaemma. Yes, at that point he revealed himself to be evil.

            I was mainly thinking of JT as presented earlier in the book, espousing altruism, and everything being for the "good of society".
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        • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
          I don't understand your unwillingness to call Jim evil. His actions were evil, we agree. He habitually chose evil actions over good actions, and I think that is what most people commonly mean when they refer to a person as evil. I think that is fair.

          Some people would say that he is not evil because his education was faulty, so he didn't know any better. Even if it were true, I don't accept that excuse. Not knowing murder is evil does not make it any less evil. But I believe every human being knows morality proper to human beings. It may be suppressed, buried deep down where they won't be confronted with it, but they cannot ultimately plead ignorance. They are without excuse.

          Some people say he is not evil because he had good intentions. Same answer. Committing murder with the good intention of bettering society (the greater good) does not make murder any less evil.

          Jim may have been confused, misguided, call it what you will. But he was also evil. That is one of the points that this whole story was building up to. Just read Ayn Rand's description of his end:

          "He was seeing his face as the face of a killer whom all men should rightfully loathe, who destroyed values for being values, who killed in order not to discover his own irredeemable evil."
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        • Posted by Lucky 8 years, 9 months ago
          My interpretation of the Jim Taggart character, and a few others, is that he is not a real person but an embodiment of much of the stupidity, if not evil, that there was round then, and now.
          Cherryl Brooks on the other hand is real and believable. She has moderate education and morals/ethics. She is not a strong intellect or producer but when faced with stupid remarks she can ask good questions. Her level of intellect, or maybe insufficient moral strength, leads to her death as she is unable to put the right questions to herself.
          The character of Cheryl Brooks is crucial to the theme of the book. Here is a person who could be happy and productive if only she had been 1. luckier in relationships, or, 2. if she had the skill to think thru her situation and make the right decisions in her own interests.
          1. plays a part in life, but, 2. as it is said, you can make your own luck.
          The reader cannot avoid liking Cheryl despite her weaknesses which proved fatal.
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        • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 9 months ago
          I have read to the end of this chain of comments, and disagree with most of them; I tend to agree with VetteGuy.

          When experiments are performed that test the willingness of people to torture other people (generally via electric shock) about 70% of the subjects agree to do so when told by ‘authorities’ that it is OK to do this. The other 30% refuse – though this subset is rarely the topic of articles that are written about these experiments. (NB I think there is a definite bias in these experiments because they are drawn from a population that routinely excludes obvious sadists and sociopaths. This will mess up the data for the curve.) We have a spread here that hints of a Gaussian distribution of people around a norm, and the ‘norm’ represents ‘obedience to authority'.

          So we have evidence that 70% of the population can be conditioned to obey authority to believe whatever philosophy is currently in vogue. Labeling this +- 2SD of the Norm as “Evil” lays an unnecessarily big burden of 'cosmic original sin' on humankind. I think that it is more accurate to label these people as ‘malleable’.

          Jim Taggart is an excellent representative of this segment of the population, and he is chilling for that exact reason. It is not necessary for JT to be innately evil in order for him to enjoy watching Galt’s torture. Remember: Until relatively recently, public torture and execution was something you ‘took the kids to’ for entertainment. Watching Homo superior be tortured is the fulfillment of the philosophy that Jim Taggart has internalized for his entire life. It proves that he is Right.

          Do you want shivers down your spine? Jim Taggart is Normal. But he could have been as readily conditioned for belief in the individual; he is a follower. Definitionally, 70% of humankind is Jim Taggart. (And yes, there is some evidence that this tendency is genetic...though it would take me a while to dig this up...came from a book that Pinker wrote.)

          Jan
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          • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
            I don't think we necessarily disagree on the fundamentals. Just on what it means to label people as evil. I say it is rightly used for people who habitually choose evil actions over good ones (even despite ignorance and good intentions). But of course this is malleable! That was one of the big appeals in John Galt's speech. He did not shy away from calling evil evil, but his appeal to everyone was to wake up, take responsibility for themselves, and learn to love Life as humans beings. Even to the end he tried to appeal to JT, even adding his "I told you so" that drove JT over the brink. But just because someone can choose to stop being evil does not mean that we should stop identifying them as evil (ie, a person who costumarily chooses evil actions over good ones) in the mean time. Do we really disagree over this?
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            • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 9 months ago
              Nope. Don't disagree. I can identify an endpoint as evil without a problem. But I think that 'most' (ie 70%) of the human race is probably geared to follow-the-leader. Labeling these people as innately evil is incorrect - they may all be at the endpoint that I would label evil, but it is more accurate to label them as 'followers'. They followed evil; they are not inherently evil.

              This also means that were there a world where our philosophy predominated, we would need to be aware that 70% of the people were just doing as they were told...by Us, rather than by Them.

              Jan
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              • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                Interesting. See, I wasn't thinking that labeling someone "evil" describes an essential, or innate quality of the person. That seems to be a different between us. Would you agree?

                I'm not sure that Ayn Rand calls anyone "intrinsically" or permanently or innately or essentially evil. I'm willing to be wrong about this, though. I think Rand would say they are called evil because of their evil choices; not that they make evil choices because they are evil. Does that make sense?

                You say "they followed evil." Would you say that is still evil? Or are they excused for their ignorance or lack of evil intention or whatever?
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                • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
                  This thread reminds me of a child-rearing class I got involved in at some point (a looong time ago). We were taught not to say "you are a bad girl", but rather "you did a bad thing". Important distinction.
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                  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                    Haha, right. Maybe the distinction should be, "You are evil," versus, "You are being evil." Evil as an essential property, versus evil as an accidental property.
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                    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 9 months ago
                      I guess the most important statements I can add to this discussion is that (1) I think that genetics determines a lot (but not all) of our behavior and our capabilities. (2) I have no trouble being judgmental and hence politically incorrect.

                      Let me drift into chemical metaphor: Some people are like Helium - they are locked into being just and only themselves. Other people are like Carbon, they are 'locked in' to being whatever their environment dictates.

                      In dealing with chemicals or people, it is important to know what element you are encountering, so that you do not beat your head futilely trying to change He or expect unfaltering allegiance from C.

                      Jan
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
          “I don't see Jim Taggart as evil. The concepts, yes. Jim, I see as ... misguided? Probably a better word for it”
          I was thinking of his relationship with Cheryl. He liked the notion of having a diamond in the rough wife, of being open-minded enough to treat her as an equal without actually respecting her as an equal. When he sees she believes she is his equal, he becomes nasty.

          He has a sick need for Cheryl to feel inferior to him and then for her and his friends to pat him on the back for it.

          In the original quote he does the same thing. He holds himself above the “crude, material world”, but he is precisely about controlling the “crude, material world”. He wants stuff that's not his and then to be congratulated for taking it.

          Even though he's only partially aware of this, he's misguided and it's due to his education, I'm still calling “evil”, even though there's the remote possibility he could repent in the future.
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        • Posted by khalling 8 years, 9 months ago
          So if we apologize for their immoral actions for whatever reason aren't we complicit in some way? Cheryl was misguided. Taggart knowing worked to destroy the property of others.
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          • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
            Maybe I'm giving JT too much "benefit of the doubt". That seems to be the common consensus, anyway. :-) I certainly didn't intend to make excuses for Jim's actions, which were clearly wrong-headed at best, no matter his intentions. Kinda like the difference between manslaughter and murder, maybe?

            I interpreted JT as really, honestly WANTING to do the right thing, just having such a warped view of the world, that his idea of the "right thing" was always contrary to logic.

            This in contrast to say, Mouch or the union boss, who didn't give a flip about right and wrong, they just wanted more personal power, no matter who or how many it hurt.

            I actually see Cheryl as having the RIGHT ideas, but being too timid in the face of Jim's overpowering, domineering personality. She seems to be a warning to the rest of us to stand up to the illogical "bullies". She didn't, and when the truth finally hit her, it was sadly too much for her to handle.
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            • Posted by khalling 8 years, 9 months ago
              hmm. You are more forgiving than I am. In the end, is it that evil Union boss who stands out (like an Obama) or is it thousands (millions) of people willing to equivocate on the fuzzy. You can't help how you were raised...etc. I recently saw Yaron Brook give a talk. An Objectivist in the room wanted to talk at length about the psche of Obama. He had no choice, it was how he was raised, how he learned in school, how he was reinforced. Yaron listened fora bit and then softly said, at some point you must own your evil actions. Obama owns them. In Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon SPOILER SPOILER
              ( I do not support the moral basis of the characters in the movies completely) the Princess understands ultimately what she was complicit of. In the movie she tries to kill, but she thinks she is doing it for the right reasons. When she understands-she kills herself. WHat I love about Rand's characterization of Cheryl-is that each of us have authority somewhere. Taking ownership of our lives and seeing we are important and our actions are important-well this dissonance was too much for her. It is tragic, but a warning to each of us. Do not sanction.
              LOL easier said than done frankly
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              • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
                Re being "more forgiving" ... ouch! :-)

                What was it that Frisco said to Rearden about forgiveness?
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                • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
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                  • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
                    THAT'S the quote I was looking for. Thanks, nsn!
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                    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                      Right. And I think the point applies to you. I think Readen, like you, was willing to write off the public in general, including James Taggart, as "not vicious, merely helpless." That is the very sin that Frisco condemns. Do not forgive people merely because you pity them. If they profess an anti-Life Code, a Code of Death, that is enough to condemn them as evil.
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                      • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
                        OK, now that I am convinced that these people (which seems like 95-99% of the population outside the Gulch ... or do I just hang out with a bad crowd?) are evil, what do I do with this knowledge?

                        I could become a hermit, avoiding the evil ones. Tempting ...

                        I could go around confronting the evil ones, but I strongly suspect that they will just interpret that as me being an ***hole and they'll WISH I had become a hermit.

                        Just ignore the Evil Ones to the extent possible, knowing that I am the reasonable one and even though they vastly outnumber me, they are all wrong.

                        Are there other options I'm missing? How do you deal with all the evil ones out there?
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                        • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                          I suggest doing what Ayn Rand and her heroes did: seek to persuade people of Objectivist values. Become an evangelist of sorts. This is not your responsibility. But do it for selfish motives. The more Objectivists there are, the better off you will be (since Objectovists promote freedom, productivity, and exchange of value). So give away copies of the AS book or movie. Or engage people in good discussion, or invite them to this forum. Maybe not all people need to become Ayn Rand fans. Some people just have a negative association with her name that they can't get past. That's stupid, but there it is. But recognizing that, I still have successful conversations along Objectivist lines. Many of my friends have come to better understandings of what I believe, even if they don't haven't embraced it themselves (yet).
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
              "I actually see Cheryl as having the RIGHT ideas, but being too timid in the face of Jim's overpowering, domineering personality. "
              I think she would have been strong enough if she had seen through it earlier. She fell in love with the image of himself he was promoting. It broke her heart to discover the truth behind the image.
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