Language and Thought: As You Think, So You Speak

Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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The primary purpose of language is thought. Communication is secondary.
SOURCE URL: http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/2015/07/language-and-thought-as-you-think-so.html


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  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 9 months ago
    The article is strong on assertions but short on evidence. There was an experiment in which one group of young children was shown pictures of butterflies and the drew pictures of them; a second group was taught the words 'spot' and 'stripe' before it was shown the pictures. The second group of children drew pictures of butterflies with coherent stripes and spots on them, but the first group tended more toward blotches of color.

    This experiment substantiated the theory that having a word for an attribute allows you to perceive it, and this experiment owned the philosophy of psycholinguistics for quite a while. Subsequent experiments were more equivocal in their conclusion, though and the theory that language serves as the structure for thought is more in contention now.

    Feral or isolated children do not learn to use language. Language may have a critical period in which it must be learned. Children who have been kept without linguistic input during that period may be unable to acquire any language subsequently.

    I have observed that the nature of a language does seem to reveal something about the nature of its speakers, though.

    Jan
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago
    "Now, to continue our discussion, let us turn briefly to the role of language.

    It is by means of language that man retains and designates his concepts. “Language,” to quote Miss Rand’s definition, is a code of visual- auditory symbols that convert abstractions—that is, concepts —into the mental equivalent of concretes. Language substitutes one symbol, one word, for the enormous sum under a concept.

    Remember that every word we use, with the exception of proper names, stands for an unlimited number of concretes of a certain kind. Words enable man’s mind to deal with such broad, complex phenomena—such as matter, energy, freedom, morality—which no mind could grasp or hold, if it had to visualize all the perceptual concretes represented by such concepts.

    Concepts and language primarily are tools of cognition, not of communication, as many people assume. Communication is a consequence, not the primary purpose, of concept-formation. The primary purpose of concepts and of language is to provide man with a system of cognition, of classification and organization, which enables him to acquire knowledge on an unlimited scale. This means: to keep order in man’s mind and enable him to think."
    From Lecture 2, Basic Principles of Objectivism.
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  • Posted by salta 8 years, 9 months ago
    I respectfully disagree. Basic languages exist in many (most?) species, but they are limited to communicating things about the "present moment". The unique quality of human languages is the ability to communicate things about past and future. The future includes such constructs as "what if" and "conceptual" thought, but those things can all be placed inside a bigger circle called "imagination".

    Complex language and imagination evolved together. It would not be appropriate to say one is the purpose of the other, because neither one can exist by itself.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
      Thanks for the links! Contrary to WorldCat, my local public library does not have the Singh book, but my local university library does, and I have a card there. I also searched the university catalog and found several other books on the same topic, all shelved together. So, that will be easy to follow up on. I put the doctoral dissertation in two folders, Sociology and Objectivism. It is 372 pages, something to read on the bus, but the introduction is compelling.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 9 months ago
    Thought experiment: Suppose that from infancy you grew up on a desert island, given the means of survival (food, water, shelter) but not permitted to interact with any other human being or animal. You could form concepts, but without the necessity to communicate, would it be necessary for you to make up names for such concepts in your head (in other words, would you have to create a language in order to think conceptually)?
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
      It is not clear that you would form concepts in any way. It also is not clear that you would not. You might or might never rise above an animal's level of cognition. So, the thought experiment is inconclusive. However, it is true that in order to think conceptually, you would have to invent a language.

      As I said, language evolved from animal calls, but that is not its primary purpose. Again, by analogy, the first numbers were "one" "two" "many" - and we see this still in the roots of modern languages - but the purpose of mathematics is not the counting of a few objects.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago
        Just as a side thought my daughter when young was learning how to count. I would ask how many of whatever. Her first response was one many two many three many and then covering up the items proudly announced none manys. She was as I recall three. She's now a pshrink.

        But your comment above hit home. She would also invent words instead of asking for some period of time. We would read to her and often the same stories by her choice. Little Golden Classics or some bit of poetry. After the alphabet song lessons she began asking how to say this word or that ...from the book. Whichever came first it never stopped. My last lesson was pointing out the 44 basic codes in our language. She excelled in math, plays and teaches piano and flute. She can see the written notes when hearing them and hear the music when reading the notes. She said it was much the same with math.

        She's the one who held u a 45 rpm album and asked or commented on when they made hard floppy disks.

        I wasn't sure what to make of it but I'll take credit like any proud papa!
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 9 months ago
    In the beginning was the word.
    Our first word lead us to language, written and spoken. Lead to the voice in our heads and eventually propelled mankind into consciousness and the development of a mind.
    The mind gave us direct access to the ether, a consequence of creation, I call it: the internet of the mind. This is the place where true 'Thought' takes place, all else takes place in the brain.
    Our next evolution is to always think with our minds and leave our brain for the automatic stuff.
    It's no longer about brain power,
    It's about Mind Speed...It's instantaneous!
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  • Posted by vido 8 years, 9 months ago
    No, this is a classical mistake. Creatures without a language are not deprived of thought. Newborn babies who cannot talk are actively computing their environment.
    Language is of course a means of communication, thought preexists it.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
      You need to define what you mean by "thinking." As you say, babes without language are aware of their environment. That awareness, however is not conceptual until they develop language. And they live with language from the beginning, and the sound of language even within the womb. Meaning comes later. And that is where thinking becomes conceptual.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
    What a bunch of Bull-Pucky.
    Thought has to have evolved before language, and language evolved to communicate the thought. COMMUNICATE! Someone is so bored that they want to spend time disproving the obvious. And don't bother me with pre-Galileo observations that were wrong.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago
    Just to add another one or two influences.

    The culture and primarily the sub culture affects the language which affects the thinking yes or no?

    All languages are codes. or codes of codes. Morse for example. Abbreviations and slanguage for two more.

    The base code of English is 26 letters, ten numbers, eight notes. 44 altogether with modifiers.

    Spanish added ch ll n or nya rr and borrowed w from English. And S pronouonced soft th. Now they are reportedly dropping some of those.

    English well over a million words is a sponge. Spanish soimething overe 300,000 uses definitions for the same words requiring context.

    Just as familiar examples. Some German for example with English tend to lend themselves to the sciences while some do not. Other than English being a sponge for new words and German having the ability to make new words I have no comment other than the above were observations.

    Oh yes and then their is pop illiteracy.

    My guideline has been to learn the defintions (pre PC) and act accoridng to what people say not try to second guess what they meant to say.

    So now I return to learning mode.

    Over but never ''and out"
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
    Relative to CircuitGuy's comments and expanding a bit, so-called "primitive" languages such as those of the Native Americans are more complicated than our Western languages.

    Our languages generally developed first by differentiation - Lithuanians could not understand Gallic - but then by conformance. Martin Luther's Bible brought Germania together by giving it a common written language. As I pointed out, English as old words that show such compromises. I heard a woman complain because her child used the word "boughten." Sounded good to me. Brethren for brothers; oxen; deer (no s)…

    I think that what makes a difference is how many languages you speak (read, write), and from how many different families. But I do not know any experiments or surveys that show evidentiary support for my theory.
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  • Posted by Lucky 8 years, 9 months ago
    Language has three functions:
    communication, the most widely held view
    problem solving, almost as you describe
    expression of emotion.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
    I wonder if speaking a language that uses word order vs affixes/inflections to indicate tense, mood, and declension affects our thinking.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
      If you mean, is English superior to Russian, German, Latin, and Greek, then I can only suggest some broader themes to attack a bigger question. One of my favorite science fiction stories is The Languages of Pao by Jack Vance. The conclusion rests on the construction of a merged language, Pastiche, to combine elements of Cognizant, Technicant, and Valiant, used by the three casts of the society. I mention this because English is a pastiche, almost a creole, though apparently more complex than a pidgin. You know the story of English, the Danes, Angles, Saxons, and Jutes coming together and simplifying their common languages. We have "children" from two different plurals, childer and childen. Then came the French… Actually Vikings themselves who adopted their own variant of a Romance language. With the Renaissance, Latin and Greek words were imported and invented - telescope, microscope, rhetoric, hypotenuse… With trade and colonization, we took on Indian words such as mulligatawny, veranda, nabob, and karma, as well as Indian words such as tomahawk, chipmunk, and moccasin. All the while, our grammar became ever simpler.

      Today, people cannot use "whom" correctly. Making a subject of an object is common - A large number of girls are going to the movies. "Wrong it may be, but better it sounds," said Yoda.

      Rather, also, I look to the ability to speak several languages. I point out that the atomic bomb was largely built by Hungarians, but they did not do their work in that language. Most Europeans are polyglots anyway. German was the lingua franca of Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries, but now English is the universal second language of Earth. I believe that it is the fact of its being a SECOND language, especially for Chinese speakers, that opens the doors to so many questions.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
        I notice you mentioned that the grammar got simpler. I wonder if it really did or if we just abandoned inflections in favor of word order to convey meaning.
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 9 months ago
          After thinking about this, I do not have a cogent answer, but I can point to some indicators. I agree that in English, we use prepositions where Latin, etc., use cases. However, prepositions also take cases. English grammar is simplified in having only three cases, nominative, genitive, and objective. Still, you can see the operation of case.

          I understood his presentation, but got nothing from her presentation.
          I understood his presentation, but got nothing from hers.

          He stands by his claim and I stand by my claim.
          He stands by his claim and I stand by mine.

          We use "of" for the genitive.
          He is Carl's father.
          He is the father of Carl.
          My father, what a guy!
          That father of mine, what a guy!

          Note, however, that in German, some prepositions are always dative (indirect object). Others are always accusative (direct object). And a few are genitive. For many, however, the case depends on the action. Forward motion is accusative. In Latin, prepositions can be accusative or ablative. In Koine Greek, the same things apply, and with EPI and PARA taking nominative, genitive, or dative depending. So, we have vestiges of that in modern English, but you have to be a stickler for grammar to notice and care.

          Urban American (Black English, Ebonics) reduces this even further. Some may argue for rules in use, I do not hear them. "Him go to the store. He go to the store."

          One regularity I do here is with a more perfect past.
          I saw my mother. ==> I had seen my mother.
          I went to the store. ==> I had went to the store.

          Speakers of British English also reduce their common speech.
          I lost my gripper. ==> I lost me gripper.

          Incidentally, German has been Anglicized with the addition of English nouns.
          Sign at a train station near Hanover:
          Für zwei Tagen, eine Fahrkarte.
          Für einen Tag, ein Ticket.
          Für drei Tagen, ein Card.
          My friend blamed it on England's King George I, but admitted that it is truly a modern phenomenon as in the 19th century, French had held sway among the Germans.

          (BTW, I am impressed with the new spellchecker. It made an umlaut out of ue.)
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
            One of the most abiguous things about English (comapred to Spanish) is not differentiating between imperfect past and completed actions. I believe this is why Urban American relies more on past perfect or "done" to indicate completed actions. "Every day this month I stepped to the store, and I done stepped there today."
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
        Sometimes I feel Latin may be superior b/c occassionally I think of something that's ambiguous in English but would be clear in Spanish.

        Regarding English being a creole, that's why we have phrases like cease and desist, I suspect from a time when not everyone know the Germanic and Latin-based words. Now we use the Germanic words to be more grity and Latin based words to be more elevated and provide more distance, e.g sweat/persire, corpse,cadaver.

        That's an interesting point about most people speaking English as a second language. I notice my kids say "What say?" in a flat tone instead of "what did you say?" with a rising tone. I think that may be due to influence from kids who speak English as a second language, esp Mandarin speakers.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago
          In learning Spanish which is far far easier the comments made above come to mind daily. You say me from a latino to a gringo. Instead of you tell me. Or You say to me. Short form say me. They look in a eng -esp esp-eng dictionary and see both words for hablar or digar. It makes perfect sense so i can''t blame them. however you will find very little in the way of pop illiteracy or ghetto except what they get from pop music we don't need no ejucashun. i took that as a cry for help immediaely translating the double negative. So group ..... is it sneak and sneaked as I was taught in grade school or is it ......sneak, snack, snuck?

          As they said it the miitary...get it done. I have asked that question a number of times

          My contribution for signage is on the local bus.

          Diga Bajan! No Chiflita. El Chofer no es perro.
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