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Ask Us Anything

Posted by khalling 8 years, 10 months ago to Culture
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Let's Shrug and khalling (and db) will be meeting for the first time since we met on the Gulch (over 2 years ago!). So tomorrow night as we enjoy objectivist discussion I would LOVE it if gulchers asked us anything. we'll answer your questions and chat and wish you were with us. LS is in Phoenix area so MST. I cannot believe how many of my favs I get to touch base with on my trip in the US, and how many of my favs I will not see :(, but you individuals light up my day-everyday and this is our gulch. The sooner you get your questions in, the better our response. (spoiler: we laugh alot and love banter-but also like serious too)


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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 10 months ago
    A serious one:
    I notice that in some Gulchers an admiration for Ayn Rand that almost borders on deification. I find this attitude to be unhealthy. There is much to admire about her, especially as a writer, lecturer and for me, the greatest debater. But she was also a woman, not a goddess. What do you think of that attitude that I just described?
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    • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 10 months ago
      People tend to conflate the message with the messenger. Credit the thinker, by all means, but celebrate the truth she has spoken as the essential value.

      Humans have an emotional template for venerating individuals perceived as superior, such as parents, tribal chiefs, heroes, kings, bosses, popes, leaders, rulers, wise ones -- role models all. It works in the animal kingdom, too, where queen bees and alpha males rule. They acquire a form of power akin to magnets and gravity.

      Humans, in all their complexity and deviance, can carry the concept of superiority to the highest level imaginable and envision a panoply of deities they see as endowed with powers humans can only aspire to or try to bribe the gods to use in their behalf. Failing that, they institute governments as agents of beneficence.

      Ayn Rand herself did not want a cult of personality. She said the truth belonged to all who had the capacity to grasp it. And her favorite poem, Kipling's "If", includes this line: "If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken / Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools ..."
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 10 months ago
      I've certainly met people at Ayn Rand Institute who were like that, especially while she was alive. Haven't heard from that bunch more recently.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
    for instance-db saw Technocracy and j and puzzlelady and some others...and had great discussions with them. shhh! we are bringing a puzzlelady puzzle to LS! check her out in the Marketplace!
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    • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 10 months ago
      Yes, I had a great time at the summit. Getting to spend time with some fellow Gulchers really made it special.

      The only downsides were two fold:
      1. time taken up by the program seriously cut into the available time to chat with each other

      2. Multiple lectures at once meant I could not see all of them. But fortunately the majority will be up to view on the Atlas Society site.

      It really was a great time, although surprisingly, there was one attendee that I flat out could not figure out what he was trying to do. Db knows who I mean Kh, ask him about "the long and the short of it".

      I'm sorry I did not get to chat more with Puzzlelady. She is amazingly gracious. However her puzzles are quite special and lots of people were keeping her occupied. :)

      I highly recommend the Atlas Summit.
      The program was good, and the company was even better.

      We laughed a lot too.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 10 months ago
        Yes, that guy was just bizarre. I also liked (not) the guy who said inventions were inevitable after I had just presented over 45 minutes of overwhelming evidence that this was not true.

        It was great to see you.
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        • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 10 months ago
          Great to meet you too.

          I did not see him around after that lunch either. I don't think he was prepared to have every person at the table push for facts to back up the assertions.

          Inventions as inevitable makes no sense at all. After you laid out evidence, I don't know why he still thought that. Creativity to invent cannot be forced, is subject to limited direction, and definitely not automatic or inevitable.

          I think a lot of people miss the difference between tweaking or improving an existing product, and creating something new.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 10 months ago
    I have been looking at objectivist economic theory in terms of Adam Smith, Friedrich Hayek, and Steven Strogatz (Spontaneous order). I see an emerging mathematical model that is consistent with Ayn Rand's view of a successful economic system. I wonder of you folks have any thoughts on this?
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    • Posted by $ KSilver3 8 years, 10 months ago
      Have read quite a bit of Smith and Hayek, but would be fascinated to hear more about this model you see. Perhaps here or in a specific thread.
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      • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 10 months ago
        Spontaneous order is a recognized but poorly understood phenomenon. Basically the idea is that there is a natural tendency for simple structures to combine and form more stable complex ones. The operative word her is "stable". This process requires both energy and raw materials and does not violate entropy.
        Quarks combine to form sub atomic particles, sub atomic particles combine to form atoms, atoms combine to form chemical compounds and so on. The idea is that this process extends from the basic elements of quantum physics to structures as complex as civilizations, social order, and even economic systems. The mathematics of spontaneous order reveals why central planning does not and cannot provide viable systems. Spontaneous order requires a large theater of operations and a large number of participants or "players". Central planning systems are not capable of that scope so they can only deal with a tiny subset of the problem at hand. Collectivists dislike the idea because they realize that if the theory is valid it removes the necessity for most political structures.
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        • Posted by $ KSilver3 8 years, 10 months ago
          Fascinating. Is that original work by you, or can you recommend some additional reading on the subject?
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          • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 10 months ago
            Actually, it's both. Steven Strogatz wrote a book titled "Sync: the emerging science of spontaneous order". It's available on Amazon. As a theoretical physicist and astronomer (retired) I have been fascinated by the cosmological consequences of spontaneous order and its role in the evolution of the universe. After reading Smith and Hayek I realized that the idea may go far beyond quantum and classical physics and may even address some of the issues in chaos physics. There are reasons to suspect that the math of SO applies to social structures including but not limited to economics. The consistency between SO and Ayn Rand's concept of a viable economic system is inescapable.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 10 months ago
      I have Smith's works and like them to the extent I can follow them, but some parts are not well written. I find Mises' "Human Action" much clearer and a complete economic theory. Haven't read Hayek or Strogatz.
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  • Posted by $ minniepuck 8 years, 10 months ago
    What do you think about "Fifty Shades of Grey"? If you could tie it Objectivism to make it relevant, even better...
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 8 years, 10 months ago
      Other than she owned herself and can do what she pleases I don't see an objectivist angle to it. I found her to be easily manipulated, and seeking the approval of a man that she was mesmerized with based on looks and money. He was abusive and messed up in his head. I did not get the attraction at all, and it was not well written either. I only read book one, which ended with him belting her across the face. That was enough for me. It also says something about the female mind set in this country that they gobble up fantasies of abuse by a man just because he's glommed onto her (stalker style, and that creep factor is practically unnoticed and quickly forgiven, again, because of his steely good looks and wealth).....It's shallow fantasies of a very young woman. But if that's what she wants to put up with that's her choice...which is what I say about all women, and men, in abusive relationships.
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      • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
        philosophically, I think submission is much like selling yourself into slavery. If you look at it from a contractual stand point, the other party gives no consideration and you are not autonomous. It's the "inalienable" part of the right to own yourself. You cannot be separated from it
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 8 years, 10 months ago
          Yes, she was selling herself into sex slavery, but on sort of a temporary trial basis thing. I think they had a safe word or something like that. Whatever..the whole thing was freaky... the red room. gah! And she bit her lip too much.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 10 months ago
    Had a great time today meeting with the Hallings and LetsShrug at LS's house. It was a enjoyable time of good conversation and quite a few laughs, followed by a really tasty burger and fries. :)

    The only shame, is that we can't do this again anytime soon.

    A real pleasure guys. Thanks for inviting me.
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  • Posted by Ibecame 8 years, 10 months ago
    We live in the greater Phoenix area to and wish we could meet. However, we are caught in a Rearden like, legal issue, and just can't make the time available.

    Having been forced to deal with it, my opinion of the Federal Court System is pretty low. The best analogy I can think of is that of dealing with the system is like dealing with a mean, spoiled out of control, unreasonable, obnoxious child.

    Have a safe trip!!!!!!!!
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 10 months ago
    what kind of scandal could we create as a little group
    here on the internet, to advance objective thought? -- j

    p.s. how about a barter scheme where we put up
    a listing of things ready for barter, and the wishful
    exchange items -- my 1986 boat for a used jeep,
    for example. . the boat is really for sale!!!
    .
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    • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
      john, should this be its own post?
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      • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 10 months ago
        maybe, but the idea of a uber-type innovation is
        so appealing that I thought of your group discussion
        brainstorming it. . we used to do that with ideas in
        our college-age Rand-devotée meetings.

        the voluntary exchange of this for that, including
        shipping, could be worth consideration;;; yes?

        I also have ham gear, vinyl records, a 1967
        Porsche 911 ....... == j
        .
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