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What are "rights"?

Posted by nsnelson 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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Too often these days, people use the language of "rights" loosely. A "right" is something that one morally deserves, and it ought to be provided or at least not violated by Other people. We all have a natural right to life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A natural right is something you deserve by nature, and nobody else can take away from you. Most fundamentally, we have a right to life, which implies you own your life (private property), which implies liberty, and if you own yourself you own your mind and your labor, and the value you produce (more private property), and the right to life implies your right to defend your life (and property), and the right to equip yourself for this self-defense. These rights are natural for all living human beings, and inalienable.

In some sense, the term "right" merely refers to a moral obligation or debt in general. If you agree to pay me $150 to play the organ for a ceremony, and I do it, then I have a "right" to demand $150 from you. But this is a very general usage, distinct from the concept of natural rights. Some rights we agree to (eg, trade), others we have by our nature as living humans.

Unfortunately, some people recognize the authority and security and prestige of the term "natural rights," and they want that positive association for other things they want, so they have tried to borrow (hijack?) this language. So they say we have a "right" to a job (and a certain wage), or a phone or TV or other standard of living and recreation, or a house, or free healthcare, or free education, or X (the growing list is potentially endless). But there is a big difference: to say a product or service is owed (like natural rights to life, etc) is to say that someone somewhere is obligated to do the work to provide them. Progressives are not merely talking about the right to pursue these things. The politicians and people demanding these "rights" are saying they must be provided to them even when they are unable or unwilling to provide them for themselves. That implies that someone "owes" them these "rights." Someone, somewhere, must be responsible to produce the value to supply these "rights." So the person who demands a free X is putting an Other person under obligation to work for person is a violation of his liberty. When John Doe demands the "right" to be provided with a good or service by Jane Roe, he is violating her natural rights.

The term "right" is rightly used for natural rights, rights we have in virtue of our nature, of being alive. Unfortunately the term "rights" is increasingly used not for what people earn, but what they deserve in spite of (or even because of) their inability to earn it. Their inability or unwillingness to produce what they want becomes a claim on the rest of us, an ever increasing mortgage on all those who do produce excess value.

Take the example of the "right to a house." (I don't know if anyone is actually claiming this is a "right," it is just an example for the sake of discussion.) Everyone, including John Doe, deserves their own house by "right," even for free if John can't pay for it and even if John is not responsible to maintain it (perhaps just because John is unable or unwilling to buy it or maintain it); if it is conditioned on John's ability to pay (maintain, etc), then it is not really like natural rights, it is just another thing that must be earned and should use different terminology. Where does John's house come from? Someone (eg, Jane Roe) has to provide it by building it or paying for it to be built. This means Jane or Other people somewhere, real people, are obligated to work for this John's "right to a house." This implicitly makes Jane and Others the slave of John, to some degree.

But this violates the natural rights of Jane and all the Other people now obligated to work for the John's house. The natural rights to life and liberty imply that I own myself (private property), and my mind and my labor and the fruit of my labor (private property), and nobody else has the "right" to violate my natural rights. Yet this is exactly what the "right to a house" (and any other good or service) does.

People like to use the language of natural rights because people hold them in high regard (natural, unalienable, etc). Ironically, by claiming the "right for John to be provided X by Other people," they are destroying the natural rights of those Other people, and so they are destroying the high doctrine of natural rights that caused them to want to use the term in the first place. A "right" to violate someone else's natural rights is a contradiction in terms.


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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 9 months ago
    The Roman philosopher and statesman, Cicero was the first to attempt to define "natural rights." His position was that we have certain capabilities we are born with, and that we should have the right to exercise these capabilities without external restraint. He cited freedom of speech, self defense, freedom of movement, and acquiring and owning property as rights which should be respected. Cicero's definitions pretty well fit with some rights as defined in the Constitution's Bill of Rights, and his statements date from 150 BC.
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  • Posted by salta 8 years, 9 months ago
    Any right can be categorized from the obligation it creates for other people.
    If it is a negative obligation (I have a right to life, which only obliges others NOT to kill me) then it is genuine.
    If it is a positive obligation (I want an education, which obliges others to pay for it) then it is NOT actually a right, but that word is used incorrectly by politicians all the time to sucker people who do not give it very much thought (it is a vote winner).

    Positive rights result in an endless spiral of costs on society. Those costs can never be fully satiated, and people build resentment. They also erode any sense of voluntary charity.
    Negative rights create no cost on others in society, and so foster mutual respect.

    In the long run, other people having a claim on you gradually kills any attitude of caring about others. Alternatively, voluntary charity actually fosters the attitude of caring.

    BTW, there are some valid positive rights, such as contractual rights, as in your example of being paid for organ playing.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Interesting point about charity. That was on display in the 20 Century Motor Company, when one's ability became a mortgage on him, and people ended up despising each other.

      And even now, many staunch Progressives, who pride themselves with caring for the poor (or using the Government to coerce us and our tax dollars into taking care of the poor), have very stingy records of charity when compared to conservatives.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago
      There are also some bogus negative rights. Some town might legislate that no one may change the appearance of his house. I submit that this would not be morally valid (though the same restriction could be imposed validly by unanimous contract of the homeowners).
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      • Posted by salta 8 years, 9 months ago
        True, it seems like it. I used to live in an area which had architectural controls like that, but I knew it when I bought the house. All our houses were limited to a small selection of "earthy" type colours, to give the area a particular appearance. But I wanted the fantastic mountain view, so it was the right choice for me.
        If (almost) anything is written into a contract then it is valid, simply because the free association of contracts is valid.
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  • Posted by jconne 8 years, 9 months ago
    This is a solved problem as people on this group should know.

    Among Ayn Rand's many contributions to the foundations of philosophy are her essays on the nature of individual rights and the nature of government. Both are in her anthology, "Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal". The other superb resource is AynRandLexicon.com edited by Harry Binswanger in collaboration with Ayn Rand in her last decade of work.

    As with all proper reasoning, it starts with the relevant and essential facts of reality and then uses induction to identify general principles, followed by deduction to apply the general to the specific. That's a very abstract way of saying,..
    1. What facts of reality are we dealing with?
    2. What universal principles follow from those facts? In this case, in ethics and politics.
    3. How do I confirm my principles? (Necessary for integrity and independent thinking.)
    4. What concrete actions follow from that?

    On this 800th anniversary of The Magna Carta from June 1215, we get the hfoundation document for the foundation documents of the United States of America. If your read about it, you'll see that it prominently specified a right to property. That was left implicit in our Declaration of Independence and we are paying dearly for that omission starting with taxation and extending to abuse of "taking" under eminent domain law. The history of how that document came about is also interesting history.

    So one universal principle is that we have a right to that which is necessary for our functioning as human beings. That grounds intellectual, political and economic freedom which Ayn Rand described as mutually dependent. Please read about that first-hand rather than as interpreted by me or others.

    Another is that one has NO RIGHT to the product of another's labor. This counters all the mistaken, altruism-based, "government charity" programs. I like to point out that charity at the point of a gun is a contradiction in terms. Charity is properly THE CHOICE to spend what's yours on someone or something you respect.

    For anyone wanting to understand the mistaken thinking that's almost universally accepted about altruism and selfishness, I can't recommend more highly Peter Schwartz's new book, "In Defense of Selfishness". It just became available on Amazon this last week. It's brilliantly accessible while respecting the readers judgement with straightforward reasoning and lots of grounding, practical examples. I also see it as a great lesson in how I can write better.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Good summary of our starting points. Thanks for sharing.

      I started reading her Capitalism, but it begins by saying to read Selfishness first, so that's where I am right now. I'll add Schwartz to my list too.

      I like to know the enemy: Do you know of any good defenses of Altruism? Sometimes Rand is very extreme, I wonder how many Altruists would affirm her definition of that philosophy.
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      • Posted by jconne 8 years, 9 months ago
        Yes, the Selfishness book is a good place to start because ethics precedes politics logically.

        However, Capitalism... in newer editions has her Individual Rights essay from Selfishness... as as appendix.

        So that's why I was recommending it as one source for those two defining essays. I wasn't specifically talking about reading both anthologies completely for this discussion. But of course I recommend that in general.

        I think that Peter's book describes the altruist's view in considerable detail as that which needs refuting. Many, less conceptual and less articulate people would be harder to understand. Ideally, one states what one is trying to refute as well or better than the advocates could. I'd even say, as they wish they could have said it :-).
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 9 months ago
    A right is inherent, internal, and inviolable. We have the right to choose our fates, choose what philosophy we will follow, and choose with whom we interact. We do not have the right to determine others' fates, force them to select a philosophy of our choice, or force them to interact with us. We have the right to the fruits of our labors. We do not have the right to the fruits of others' labors. We have the right to express our feelings, opinions, and philosophies inasmuch as that expression is voluntary and does not distort reality (lies, extortion, slander, etc.). We do not have the right to be listened to, however.

    Your rights stop where my rights begin.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 9 months ago
    "Rights" are things others may not violate so long as people must live together. The corollary to this is: no person may start the use of force against another.

    The best definition of what rights are *not,* you will find in the "(Wo)Man in Bedroom/Roomette/Drawing Room/Seat X, Car No. Y" passage in AS.
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  • Posted by irrevo 8 years, 9 months ago
    I think much confusion is the result of the odd figure of speech that has people "having" rights. If I remember correctly, Rand defined a "right" as "a moral principle defining and sanctioning man's freedom of action in a social context." It's not a possession of any individual but a ground rule for making society work as a venue for trade and cooperation. That works if you get to keep or trade what you create in a society but not if what you create will be taken from you. The various statist schemes make society toxic for producers, which is ultimately not in the best interest of consumers. Ironically, those schemes institutionalize the "law of the jungle" which their advocates decry.

    In any case, nobody talks about "having" principles like F=ma or the Commutative Law or the Law of Excluded Middle. This odd figure of speech encourages us to think of rights as commodities like bread that people can fight over. I encourage people to reframe their discourse on rights so as to avoid this idiom. Most people think that sounds artificial and unnecessary but I have found it to be a GREAT help to clear thinking.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago
    The poster may want to read about the distinction between positive and negative rights. Mises' "Human Action" talks about that. This is basic stuff to most of us here.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 9 months ago
    I thought the same things when I was 12 years old.,
    and it was amazing to me that others seemed not
    to understand it. This was before I knew about
    Ayn Rand, whose writings I discovered when I
    was 15. But I do not claim that I would have been able to validate it, or properly defend it,
    without learning about her philosophy. To tell
    the truth, she may have saved my life.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
    Many people do not understand what a right is. A good way to get them to understand is through illustration and comparison, especially children. For example, I once talked to a group of pre-teens and compared the right of having freedom to getting a haircut. I know it seems like a weird comparison, but you'd be surprised at the discussion it created. We all sat around in a big circle and I hardly needed to speak until the end when I summed things up.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
    Today, most believe a "right" is something bestowed upon them by the government, hence, it can be taken away.

    Interesting comment about "right to a house".
    I would say, you do not have a right to a house, or any particular dwelling, but you would, I think, have a right to shelter.
    I don't know how one "shelters" for free in a modern society. Can't have people just crashing in the park (although they do). If we don't want people living in our parks then do we owe them a minimal place to live?
    That also raises the question, do you have a right to forage?
    I should have a right to speak, protect myself, eat, breath, and occupy a piece of land (to lay my head).
    Are those not the basic of basic needs.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Regarding the "right to a shelter," this has the same problems. Does that really mean a "right to be provided with a shelter"? If so, who provides? Or do you just mean a right to build a shelter and not have it taken away? If so, this would come under private property rights.

      Which makes me wonder about foraging. If it is on the private property of someone else, I don't think you have the right to forage and build a shelter without permission. I wouldn't take very kindly to people eating and camping in my garden.
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      • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
        But today, property is acquired through the govt, or previous private ownership. One is not born with property to squat upon. How can a person exist without a place to stand? Is my land that parcel I fall upon when I drop from the womb?
        Any and all other rights are irrelevant if I can occupy a space and call it my own.
        If someone owned land then they have zero excuse not being able to feed themselves. Everyone has the tools to grow food.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
          You are correct to say, "one is not born with property to squat upon." So you rent. Or learn to live with friends or family. If you produce enough excess value, you can trade it into land property of your own. Otherwise, you just rent/borrow.
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          • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
            I don't have to pay someone to breathe?(yet)
            Renting/buying property is a modern concept. Squirrels don't pay me rent. Who was the original land owner? This acquisition just sort of happened. Theft?
            Westward expansion the govt granted land to anyone that wanted it. One could go out there and work their land and feed themselves. We don't donthat know. I'm not making a case that "we" owe everyone a chunk of land. Just asking the question.
            Is owning property as basic human right? Because as it stands, everyone is born indebted to a landlord to exist. That isn't right.
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            • Posted by khalling 8 years, 9 months ago
              The Lockean idea of everyone getting a chunk of land has historical basis but doesn 't fit a modern scenario. No longer are we all farmers. If you own yourself you have to work. Farmers have to work. I will submit that this idea was quite popular with some of the founders. But it is not a solution to some of the most pressing problems we face today.
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              • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
                We replaced land ownership with a public education, to learn a trade, to seek employment, so that we could buy property in hopes that we could be self-sufficient, enjoy maximum liberties, and withdraw from the chaos we call the modern world.
                Sounds like we took 3 lefts when we should have taken one right. :-)

                No doubt, if every person born was granted 1 acre of land somewhere, there'd be those that would complain they got rocky soil on the side of a mountain and the Senators son got beach front.
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                • Posted by khalling 8 years, 9 months ago
                  there are other forms of property besides real estate. There is intrinsic value in all forms of property rights. Invent something. Make it up out of whole cloth. We are not surrounded by scarce resources, you know :)
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                  • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
                    Whole cloth - I have to purchase the raw material. You are starting with something.
                    I'm not talking about being a "producer", I'm talking about not being a "parasite".
                    Our modern world requires us to be one or the other. The middle ground is to be self sufficient (neither a lender or Borrower).
                    "real estate" is the lowest common denominator.
                    I can have no water unless I have property for it to flow across.
                    I can grow no food without dirt.
                    I need a place to invent something.

                    We have a right to live, correct? Therefore, I have a right to occupy space. If I can't occupy space, or have to pay for it, then what rights do I have?
                    Any other rights are irrelevant without owning/controlling some dirt.
                    We aren't born engineers, or plumbers. Those are skills that require "space" to learn.
                    True, if you can't afford the rent in the city, you have to go someplace else. No one owes us a Manhattan Penthouse. If I chose not to play in our modern world - where do I go? How do I live like a squirrel?

                    I think I can get free land in Alaska. If we took all the parasites and threw them into Alaska and told them to sink or swim, most would die - but, that would be their choice.
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                    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                      Interesting point: we are either a producer or a parasite. I think you are right: there isn't any middle ground anymore. But think of the original landowner, or the man on a desert island. He didn't even have those two choices. He didn't have the luxury of being a parasite. He had to produce or die. In that sense, we have it better because we can be moochers. Ha! But seriously, isn't that a main point of Rand's philosophy: Man is alone responsible for his survival, and has to produce enough value to survive or else he dies.

                      What you are saying, no offense, sounds like the many characters in Atlas Shrugged who complained that they couldn't succeed because "nobody gave them a chance."

                      Maybe one solution would be to find like-minded people to get together an buy a lot of land, share it in common (call it public property?) or temporarily divvy it up, so that you can collect your water, grow some vegetables, set up a tent, and others can do the same. (One problem is that "public property" is hard to defend; how do you tell someone to not take your vegetables if you can't say you own them?) Someone would have to pay for it, but if you are lucky enough to get the benefits of this land without having to pay for it, this might address your objection.

                      Edit: spelling.
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                      • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
                        When I think producer", I think "surplus". I met my needs, and had something to profit off of.
                        Maybe I produce, "just enough", for me.
                        Capitalism requires us to produce a surplus. Earn enough to cover rent, food, electric, vacation, entertainment and retirement.

                        > (call it public property?)
                        HA, that was tried in the 60's, the Hippy Communes. (and earlier with the Pilgrims) no one wanted to work.
                        But, in a way, yes. Relative to the parasites, a pauper community. where you toss these people and say good luck (we can do this with our abandoned military bases. We call this Detroit now)
                        As opposed to those that just want to be off-grid, but not communal.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
              Interesting thoughts; I want to ponder this more. In the mean time, here goes some thinking out loud.

              I suppose land ownership, from the original landowner to today's, was based on a person's claim and ability to defend it. (This is true of any private property ownership, not just land.) Squirrels don't know or care about this, but they will know and care when I trap and remove them. The original landowner was not stealing from anyone. Soon all land will be claimed, and will only transfer ownership through trade, gift, or theft. Government granted land, which indicates that they claimed it, "owned" it, and so it was theirs to grant. They granted it to new owners, because they know that people tend and care for, and make valuable (i.e., productive), land that they privately own. It is amazing what private property rights does to motivate people in this way. We don't do that now because land has pretty much been claimed.

              People are born indebted to a landlord. This has always been the case, ever since the first landowner. Even in the past, people still had to pay the price for landownership. One option used to be to move far away to the nearest unclaimed land, claim it, settle it, and defend it. No small price to pay. Another option was to produce excess value, save enough of it, and trade it for land ownership. Now the first case is not an option; that is a difference today.

              I'll leave a couple of questions for myself here. If all modern people are born indebted to landowners, doesn't this imply a degree of slavery, or at least lack of liberty?

              Second, what happens if one man (or small group of men) gain ownership to all the land in the world? Then they couldn't they decide to never sell, only rent, and rent high, or not rent at all? Or what if they own all the water? I suppose this would fall back to ownership depending on what you can defend. But is this a common objection to private landownership? And ownership of any truly scarce resource, I suppose.

              But what is the alternative? Are you suggesting rejecting the notion of private property when it comes to land?
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              • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
                Defend it, we have the second amendment.
                I agree, "conquest" is how land was acquired. and of course the spoils of war.

                >But what is the alternative?

                I don't know. I merely point out that your true liberties begin with occupying dirt. No other rights matter until you secure dirt.

                We have a welfare state because people don't have access to grow or forage, as a result we have to provide for those. If they had property, then there would be no reason to "assist" them. They would have all the tools they need to provide for themselves. The most the "state" could/should do is to perhaps provide seed.
                If we take away land grants then we must provide welfare. Don't hunt deer in the Kings forests.
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                • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                  But look at what you just said: "No other rights matter until you secure dirt." Isn't "securing dirt" a form of private property? What good is a vegetable garden unless you can claim your spot, and defend it against people who would eat "your" produce (or sleep in "your" shelter)? I don't think you can get around the need for allowing private property, including land.

                  But owning land does not guarantee survival, and it is not the only way to survive. As you pointed out, even if someone owns dirt, that does not mean they have the tools (which someone has to build), or the seeds (which the Government has to provide?), or the no-how to make it work.

                  And you don't need land to survive. You don't need to hunt deer in the King's forests; you can produce value in other ways, and trade it for meat.

                  I don't think the our welfare state is due to the fact that not everyone is a landowner, or that not everyone has a (private?) vegetable garden. It is much more complicated, and more due to the collectivist mindset that wants people to depend on the State.
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            • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
              Regarding "this acquisition just sort of happened. Theft?"

              Conquest. Whether this is "theft" or not ... that's a can of worms I won't open, as I can see both sides, from a historical perspective.

              After conquest, the government (US in this case) THEN gave property to its people. My world history is a little weak, but seems I remember that this is a fairly normal turn of events. When the Russians or Chinese (hypothetically, I'm NOT predicting) take over North America, I would expect the cycle to repeat, and those friendly to the new regime will be granted the property of the conquered.
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              • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
                I just sort of threw the "theft" out there. Yes, can-o-worms.
                But, it makes my point. If we were nomadic, property rights, or boundaries didn't exist. Go hunt, forage, grow food where ever. You could take care of yourself.
                Now we added ownership to this, and territory.
                What "rights" do you really have?
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                • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
                  To me, it seems that there is no "right to land" inherent in being a citizen of a country. If you want land, you must earn the means to trade for it. Until that time, you can, as noted above, live with relatives, or rent. Or, as is most often the case, borrow the money for it.

                  Another means for obtaining land is to inherit it.
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                • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                  What is the alternative to private land ownership? Are you suggesting that everyone has a natural right to use land equally? So that nobody should be allowed to own land privately? That your right to life and liberty depend on other people not owning the land you live on? So there should be no land ownership, or maybe just a set-aside portion of "public property" so that people can live on it without paying anyone? If so, should this be added to our list of natural rights (right to free land), and who is responsible to provide this?
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                  • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 9 months ago
                    I guess the simple answer is yes.
                    Then you have to answer the question, how much useable land is there, and how much land does 1 person need?
                    Then you have to control the population accordingly.
                    Maybe that's the role of Gov't?

                    It would be such a radical change I don't know what it would look like.

                    One does have to answer that question, do you have a natural right to land, like you do air?
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 9 months ago
              Regarding paying someone to breathe (yet), that is the one failure (in Obama's eyes) of his administration. He didn't pass the carbon dioxide tax. The operative word is ... yet.
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  • Posted by woodlema 8 years, 9 months ago
    nsnelson, I would take issue with this statement.

    "A "right" is something that one morally deserves,"

    A right is not something I deserve, but something that as a human I am totally fully and completely entitled to.

    I use the word entitled not as a moocher, but as our founders wrote we have certain unalienable rights, that our Government has no business interfering with at all for any reason whatsoever.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Right. That was just one general sense I think the term 'right' could be used. And I consider the words almost interchangeable; I could have said: "In one sense, a 'right' is something that one is morally entitled too." But I hate quibbling over semantics.

      The point is that a 'right' is something for which it is immoral to take it away. Call it what you want.

      I don't mind if the Government is involved with my right to life. As long as they are involved to protect it. In fact, I believe that is its essential task.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
    In nature, "rights" does not exist. In nature there is only "opportunity" - to thrive or perish. "Rights" is a philosophical and political concept which can therefore mean whatever the philosopher or politician imagines it to be.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 9 months ago
      I agree with you, helidrvr, and - in spite of a lot of interesting discussion on this list - I cannot support the idea of Constitutional Rights being natural rights.

      There has never been a tribe or government in history that has been able to repeal gravity. On the other hand, most tribes or governments do not respect those rights we call Constitutional Rights in their citizens or subjects.

      When someone asks me if I believe in God's Laws, I answer, "Yes, I do. I call them 'Physics'." Since Constitutional Rights can be taken away (and generally are), they must exist at a different level than Physics. These Constitutional Rights define 'the universe I want to live in' as opposed to 'the universe that exists on its own'. They are not inviolable; they just should be.

      Jan
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      • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
        I would not equate Constitutional Rights and Natural Rights, only note the correlation. Natural rights are on a higher plane. Our Government was made to protect our natural rights; our Constitution was made to protect us from the Government.

        I think "natural" is a fine adjective. Rand says our rights stem from what it means to be a living human. Issues of survival, life and death, and even a flourishing life are rightly considered part of the nature in which we live.
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    • Posted by tkstone 8 years, 9 months ago
      I would disagree. Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are indeed natural rights for all elements of nature. It is only humans that have begun to recognize them as rights and taken the first steps to recognize them as such. Progressives want to pull us back down into the crab bucket. Rights will always be in jeopardy so if we as a species wish to continue our climb up the evolutionary ladder we better continue our support of natural rights. Our mind is the only advantage we have. The only caveat would be that as Ayn Rand stated there can be no conflict between truly rational men this does not cross species. My right to life is in conflict with any form of life I need to consume to survive, but my rational mind recognizes that I must respect the life of that "food" if I expect it to continue to reproduce and provide me more food. Respecting life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness is indeed a natural right.
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      • Posted by jconne 8 years, 9 months ago
        @tkstone wrote, "Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are indeed natural rights for all elements of nature."

        I believe that rights arise only in a human context. Therefore it has no meaning for other "elements of nature". It comes about in a social and conceptual context.

        As Rand described it - subordinating freedom of action to an ethical social standard (paraphrasing). Look it up in the AynRandLexicon.com.

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      • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
        Nature is neither rational nor irrational, only humans are. There is nothing rational or irrational about gravity. It simply exists and as such is beyond reason.
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        • Posted by khalling 8 years, 9 months ago
          the very nature of reason is the ability to understand reality. Yet, you say everything "real" is outside the ability to reason? gravity is a concept, it does not "exist" in and of itself. You can't point to the thing, gravity. You can't touch, you can only feel the effects or witness them. It is unifying a number of concepts. AS such, one can witness the effects of Natural Rights, where they are upheld, human life thrives. where they not upheld, human life suffers.
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          • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
            << Natural Rights, where they are upheld, human life thrives. where they not upheld, human life suffers. >> That is where the dog is buried. Contrary to "rights' which lend themselves to endless debate and interpretations, natural laws like the law of gravity can neither be upheld nor denied. They simply and immutably EXIST. .
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    • Posted by jconne 8 years, 9 months ago
      In fact no abstractions exist In the external world.

      Abstractions, including "rights", are a product of our ability to reason and reduce the effectively infinite details in reality to a hierarchy of mentally manageable units.

      A first level fact on which epistemology depends is that we can only hold a few units in focal consciousness at once. "Individual rights" is a very abstract concept based on a bunch of other ones. Ayn Rand's clear thinking on this is why we have an Objectivist movement.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      I see what you are saying. We did not have a "right" or natural dessert to be born. And if, through natural causes, we die, nobody has violated our "right" to exist.

      Still I do find value in the concept as a philosophical and political concept. It helps us define it so that we can defend it against those who would take it away. The adjective "natural" helps to highlight that our right to life is not given or taken by the Government (it is unalienable). It also helps to highlight our equal liberty: by nature, as we are born, no individual has rights of ownership over another; by nature we have equal rights.
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      • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
        Of course there is value in the concept of "rights". That is not in dispute. Philosophical concepts are critical to the success of any division-of-labor society. The fact that they are not absolute laws like gravity, but can be imagined and adapted to human needs makes them of greater valuable to humanity than mere immutable laws like gravity.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 9 months ago
      Nonsense. What a bunch of anti-conceptual nonsense. That is like saying gravity does not exists. What exists is things falling or things orbiting..

      Or it is like saying dogs do not exist, what exists is an individual dog. This sort of anti-conceptual reasoning is dishonest.
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      • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
        The nonsense is yours. Gravity DOES exist in nature. It is as inescapable for you as it is for a lion or a dog (yes, dogs exist too). Duh. This is verifiable factual truth. If you're so sure your right to survive exists in nature, I suggest you prove it by shaking hands with a hungry lion.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
          Or was dbhalling talking about abstractions? You were saying abstractions do not exist in nature. So the abstract concept of "dogness" does not exist, only individual concrete dogs?
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          • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 9 months ago
            A concept is an abstraction of a number of specific facts.

            So the abstract concept of "dogness" does not exist, only individual concrete dogs?

            Yes and this anti-conceptual form of argumentation is dishonest.
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          • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
            I said "RIGHTS do not exist in nature".
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            • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 8 years, 9 months ago
              Hello helidrvr,
              Interesting. Please elaborate. In my mind, in nature, absent society, you have the need and "right" to defend your life from predators. Unless you are the only human on the planet you have the "right" to the sustenance you have procured and the property you have developed even if it is only a fish or a cave to live in.. the "right" to keep them from other humans. You have the "right' to defend your life and that of your offspring against other humans. If these be not "rights" what would you call them?
              Respectfully,
              O.A.
              Edit: For clarity.
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              • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
                The "right" to defend yourself is in nature better defined as the "opportunity" to do so. Neither are absolutes in the way that gravity is. The hungry lion can and most likely will ignore your "right". With gravity it does not have that luxury.

                Essentially "rights" are codified agreements which had to first be imagined before they could be agreed upon for implementation to lubricate human interaction. They can however be changed or eliminated by consent in a free society, or by decree in a statist society.

                While I in no way mean to impugn this process of "moral evolution" by imagining "rights", it must nevertheless be acknowledged how claiming that there are "natural rights" which are as immutable as the law of gravity is therefore pure nonsense.
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                • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                  I'm not sure that natural rights are not grounded in nature, similar to gravity. For Rand, her most fundamental claims about morality are based on the nature of man. Man's whole code of morality is based on what he needs to do to survive, which at least at some fundamental level, is just as objectively true and provable as gravity is. I tend to agree. Many aspects of ethics are based on consent and may change in different cultures, but some fundamental morals (e.g., we have a right to life, liberty, regardless of what a hungry lion thinks, or regardless of what the murderous thug thinks) are based on our nature as living human beings. Do you disagree with this claim about Rand, or do you disagree with Rand?
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                • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 8 years, 9 months ago
                  Man or lion may ignore my 'right" but they may find it difficult to ignore my club, or my pitfall. If I understand you correctly you see rights as a societal construct only. It may not be the way I or renowned philosophers have expressed the construct, but it matters little to me so long as they are observed.
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                  • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
                    My point is only the one you keep asserting yourself again and again. Observing rights is optional ("so long as they are observed"). No such attribute exists for the laws of nature. They exist.
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                    • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 8 years, 9 months ago
                      Hello helidrvr,
                      I agree that rights, whether natural, God given, or unalienable.. whatever one wishes to call them, must be asserted. That assertion is my right. It is natural. It is not a law of nature which your premise seems to conflate, or at least cause me confusion regarding my understanding of natural rights. Nature has given me existence. Along with that are necessities which must be acquired in order to continue that existence. These are universal in that every being possesses some natural rights which other beings may violate. The violation of these rights does not negate their existence, nor one's right to assert them. In my mind man's existence by virtue of nature, his right to exist and his rights to exercise the force required to continue his existence predates any society. Therefore it is a precursor to any rights proscribed or recognized by society. Perhaps our misunderstanding is just a matter of semantics?

                      Either way it is of little consequence to me if you do not see it the same as I do, so long as you support them for yourself and others. In the end the affect it is the same.

                      Thank you for the stimulating exchange.
                      Respectfully,
                      O.A.
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                      • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
                        Thank you for your kind words O.A.

                        That I must nourish my body to survive is a law of nature. Nature provides me with many opportunities to do so but – and this is critical - nature does NOT guarantee my success as a “right”. Nature is completely agnostic when it comes to my survival or comfort as an individual or how I might ovecome the many perils it places in my path.

                        Rights DO exist as essential glue in human societies, but they are not elements of nature.

                        Rights are a brilliant solution first imagined and then implemented in human societies to overcome through social organization many of the dangers which exist in nature. Rights are the formal and intellectual expression of “social agreements” to protect and help one another in mitigating the dangers of nature, including those presented by other humans. Rights therefore are as often as not in conflict with (base) nature rather than being part of it.

                        So don’t get me wrong. I’m all in favor of defining certain economic or social goods as rights but only by voluntary agreement, not by coercion. So if a group among us want to define a grade 12 education as a “right” and share the associated costs between us, that’s cool as long as those who decide otherwise may peacefully opt out.
                        .
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        • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 9 months ago
          Gravity does not exist in nature, only falling of specific things such as leaf. Gravity is a concept that encompasses all these specifics.

          Rights are a concept that unifies a scientific reality based morality and they exist whether they are acknowledged or enforces, just like it does not matter if you think gravity exists.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
    It cheapens rights to say we have a right to scarce things. IMHO we should find a way to provide basic needs for people, but if we won't or can't, we still have true rights (not "rights" to housing, medicine, etc), which exist regardless of whether people respect them.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Good point about scarce things in particular. Any product or service is technically scarce. So is life, for that matter, but when we affirm our right to life we just mean nobody is allowed to take it away from us. But the Looters who affirm rights to property and services do not merely affirm that we should not take from others, they are saying we Producers are obligated to provide these products and services to the Other moochers.

      Be careful when you say we should provide basic needs for people. We should not buy into the collectivist mindset that says we are responsible for society, that we are our brother's keeper. If you want to help others (family, friends, even strangers/enemies) because it brings you pleasure or helps you obtain other personal values, then that is good. But just be careful not to make it a generalized moral "should." Whether it is you alone, or you joining together with other people to help people, it should be voluntary.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
        "Be careful when you say we should provide basic needs for people."
        I agree we are only responsible for ourselves. I just think we shouldn't rule it out if it makes the world a better place for everyone, better in a way that we cannot exclude to those who don't want to pay for it. I agree this is very dangerous in that it can lead to the collectivist mindset. It's even worse when it makes some product/service become "rights", supposedly on part with the rights in the Bill of Rights.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
          Well put. In that case, "making the world a better place" is a value to you, and worth pursuing. I happen to agree. Then as long as it is voluntary (not coerced, for example, through taxation), then I will join you in this virtue.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 9 months ago
            I'm for experimental models with no forced taxation. I'm not sure how they'd work, how to avoid free riders.
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            • Posted by tkstone 8 years, 9 months ago
              Sorry CG, free riders are precisely why your ideas, no matter how good they are or how much you know they would help, will never work. Well intentioned programs are doomed to fail no matter how much we want them to work. Want never trumps rationality.
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              • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
                There are many ways of voluntary taxation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_t...). But none of them will work unless the Government limits its spending (if the role of Government were defined and understood narrowly, this would not be hard), and unless there is an efficient bureaucracy that can prosecute or weed out people who abuse the system.

                Other charities would rise to the occasion of filling the gaps the State leaves behind. Much of the welfare state would be serviced by the church (for example), which used to and wants to do more than it does, but it's hard to compete with the Leviathan State.
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  • Posted by com-mom 8 years, 9 months ago
    We need to talk about responsibilities along with "rights". If John Doe wants a house, what are his responsibilities toward getting it.
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  • Posted by frodo_b 8 years, 9 months ago
    But people do have a right to medical care, or to use your example… a house.

    I have the natural right to treat myself for whatever injury or illness I may have. I have the natural right to live in a house.

    However, just because I have the right to something does not mean that I can demand from someone else that it be given to me.

    The root problem is that Progressives have twisted the meaning of “right” 180 degrees. Instead of a right being something no one else can deny you it has become a synonym for an entitlement.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Well, yes, of course. When people say they "have a right to a house," the implication is that they "have a right to be provided with a house." I thought that was commonly understood.

      And I agree with you, Progressives have "right" 180 degrees wrong. We affirm negative rights (thou shalt not take away my life, liberty), they affirm positive rights (thou shalt provide me with product/service X).
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 9 months ago
    very well thought out, and well written! . Thank You!

    besides the hijacking of the word "rights," we have
    a perversion of the word "property" since redistribution
    presumes that others should own your property. -- j
    .
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Right, they don't understand ownership. Most people in my circles reject involuntary slavery as evil, so maybe that is a good starting point in discussions with these people. Do I own myself? If no, then they are affirming natural slavery. If yes, then they have just affirmed the most basic private property, and it is not a stretch to deduce my ownership over my mind, and my labor, and the fruits of my labor, etc.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago
    And some say I have the right without explanation to take all of your rights without exception. Never mind the right they claim does not exist except in their wishful thinking.


    The greater good is not a right I can find anywhere except where and DK put it quite perfectly - in the minds of those such as Adolf, Lenin, Benito, and the current version of same.

    Hearts and other organs. Once you decide to donate it without specifying to whom it's open season.

    good post and thank you.

    However at the moment as the wind is back up I'm being denied my right to haul in a few more fish. time for the frying pan and the fire. The day always ends well.
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  • Posted by cjferraris 8 years, 9 months ago
    So, then if I'm following this correctly, you have "natural" rights (i.e. Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness). Then there are "Conditional" rights were there are certain criteria involved (i.e. property rights, voting rights, et al). And then third would be "bestowed" rights that are "forced" by the government (i.e. anti-discrimination rights et al). "Natural" rights being those who are automatically bestowed to all human beings, where as "Conditional" rights mean you must meet some criteria. and "Bestowed" rights are ones that are defined by government.

    Then on top of that, you have things that are a "privilege" (i.e. driving a car, etc.)

    Hmmmm... Living in the United States used to be so simple.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      Seems like there will be some overlap and confusion between the "bestowed" and "conditional" rights. "Natural" rights could be considered more objective, philosophically, objectively, regardless of whether or not people recognize them.
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  • Posted by radical 8 years, 9 months ago
    Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There are many corollaries to these three. A right always has a corresponding duty.
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