Rape
who considers Galt a rapist? . I do not;; I think that
Dagny let him know, in ways like those in "Bridges
of Madison County," that she was his.
What Do You Think??? -- j
.
Dagny let him know, in ways like those in "Bridges
of Madison County," that she was his.
What Do You Think??? -- j
.
"Let him come here, let him break- let it be damned, all of it, my railroad and his strike and everything we've lived by!- let it be damned, everything we've been and are!- he would, if tomorrow I were to die- then let me die, but tomorrow-
And earlier, when she was remembering that she had said she would shoot the destroyer on sight, she thought, "I would have shot him, but not before-"
And on her last night in the valley,
"She did not sleep in the hours that were left to her. She sat on the floor of her room, her face pressed to the bed, feeling nothing but the sense of his presence beyond the wall. At times, she felt as if he were before her, as if she were sitting at his feet. She spent her last night with him in this manner."
Finally, after Galt and Dagny made love, he said, "what I did tonight, I did it with full knowledge that I would pay for it and that my life might have to be the price."
I can't see how anyone could call that rape.
Remember later he did when he surrendered to the authorities in his apartment, telling Dagny to "appear" to betray him. to save her life.
Also remember that in the end, John had in essence died, for a brief time before being revived.
In his apartment he was telling Dagny that she had to appear to betray him in order to save his life, not hers.
Also in the book I don't think that Galt died, although he was tortured.
Little points.
Galt knew that SHE would be tortured if she did not betray him, in order to use her as leverage against him. The Government did not want to kill Galt, but use him to FIX their policies using their policies, and if they knew he and her has that kind of "love" they would use her to force him to do what he knew was not possible.
There was a lot of brilliant complexities to those scenes.
But interesting. Txs for finding it.
Galt:::
http://www.cracked.com/funny-304-ayn-ran...
-- j
.
a reference to rape, but the "cracked" link above
is the most recent. . I will look back through my
recorded stuff and see who else. -- j
.
Worth beating Galt for? Yes. beating him makes me alpha male. Once I'm alpha male, her ass is mine. The whole "love story" aspect of the book (and of course there had to be a love story; Rand was a female, after all), is nothing more than an alpha female in search of the most alpha male to breed with. All instinctual, none intellectual. Otherwise, she'd still be with D'Anconia or Rearden.
best answer to the situation was to strike and let
the "motor of the world" stop, then he deserves
the credit for intellectual innovation, which Dagny
gradually understood; ; ; he became her alpha
male as a result ... imho. -- j
.
If you think she got all hot and bothered over him because he figured it out... well, I disagree. That's not how it works. Especially with a woman who has a track record of "trading up". She didn't get all hot and bothered over Dr Stadler, who was smart, or Quentin Daniels, who was so smart he almost figured the engine out.
Intellect had nothing to do with it. That part of Galt's speech was pure unadulterated BS.
who traded up, and her view is that we independently
figured out life in the same way, then joined forces.
I tend to agree with her. -- j
.
.
Roark - that wasn't easy, but you have to think, would a rape victim sit and daydream about a rapist? Laugh about it? Go out of her way to be close to him? End up marrying him? No way. So no.
I didn't watch the show. -- j
.
interesting story -- the "what to say" woman..... -- j
.
There of course is the very physical scene between Dominique and Roark, some might argue was the "rape" of Dominique. I never saw it as such myself. Is it weird to be very physical in the sack? I don't think so. all part of what two consenting adults get up to, and Dagny and Galt were no different. It's been so long since I have seen Bridges of Madison County that I don't really remember the story well. I have been to all of those bridges though. My mother grew up nearby
It's a f***king nightmare to be a white male in this country. I don't like that this topic was brought up in the context of AR's writings. Her fiction was intended to illustrate her philosophy in such a way as to relate to the people living and suffering in the world of reality, not to be a sounding board for todays nonsense socialist feminism. The male/female interaction is at a level below the conscious and can be distorted by genetics as well as the social construct of development, but understanding that doesn't require this nonsense of today's description and definitions of rape.
I am quite in favor of men's lib, and am aware of the feminization of our culture. This is not a good thing. But it was not a good thing 50 years ago when women were fit into a tiny niche and expected to stay there, either.
We are going to have some pendulum swings before we settle into a balance of the sexes - and I think that is still a few generations in the future. It is difficult for women to get over being second class citizens - for millennia. We have, as a gender, gone waaay overboard and tried to make our society over in a feminine image. This is bad.
But if you think about it, there are worse things: Accompanying the feminization of society is the socialization of society. This is what this site is about: reversing socialism (in a particular manner). I do not think that it is just chance that feminization and socialism are going hand-in-hand: women have been 'taken care of' by benign sexual sugardaddies for generations, and their job has been to nurture their children in an environment that has nothing to do with economic worth. This is a deep emotional seedbed for the growth of a socialistic philosophy that spreads this 'nurture and be nurtured' attitude over the whole earth. I think that your concerns about feminism and socialism are two aspects of the same thing, Zenphamy - two weeds sprung from the same evil root.
I do not regard the scene in AS as a rape scene, but if it were I would ignore it and go on. Ayn Rand was a human woman, and hardly infallible. She had a brilliant clarity of vision with respect to many aspects of economics and the worth of the individual vs society and that is what I treasure. Her fantasies are her own (and if she makes them part of her books, oh well, that is her choice).
Jan
(If a man tried to 'male up' to me, I would put him through a wall. If he apologized and talked philosophy for a while afterwards...maybe I would consider him a candidate. Someone weak - go away; someone arrogant - tear his arms off; an equal seeking an equal - yay.)
I have no problem with women in general having equal opportunity to achieve as do men that have earned that achievement. But not by simply being a woman.
As to your last, a strong male doesn't need to 'male up', any more than strong women need to 'female up'. That's simply what he/she is. He may fear allowing that side of himself being seen by all due to the PC of today, where she might gain accolades. As to an equal seeking an equal--if that means a woman able to achieve all she can as a female seeking a man that achieves all that a male can or vice versa, with no social or government restraint or special treatment, I'm all for it.
As to the rest of all the nonsense, women and men are not the same, and that to me is something to celebrate.
Since the topic of this thread is Rape, however, I thought it appropriate to add in that male 'strength' is not attractive when it becomes 'abuse'. I revel in the strength of capable men around me - and many of them are much stronger than I am. But if they thought to use that strength in an inappropriate fashion, they would have real trouble from me: most of them are not so much stronger that I would not be able to tear holes in them in a confrontation.
It is unfortunate that we live in a world where I have to keep this in mind. (Happily, most of the really strong men around me are also of noble disposition and if they saw me in trouble, I would not fight alone.) I think that the physical difference between men and women is less than it is write up to be. Imagine a Victorian woman, vs a modern female athlete. The Victorian woman has been protected from any physical exertion during her whole life, so the delta of strength between her and her husband is going to be large. Now take the female athlete: She and her husband both play tennis and work out at the gym. He is still significantly stronger than she is, but the difference is not as great as it was between the Victorian woman and her spouse.
We are still in the midst of changing what we think of as a woman "achieve all she can as a female" and a man "achieves all that a male can". I want to maximize both potentials. And yes, that includes the fact that you should be able to volunteer to help take a 4th grade class on a museum trip without someone putting you on a predator watch list.
Jan
will you be our coach, to maximize the potential of
each and every member? . Thank You!!! -- j
p.s. and that's why I supposed that they'll be after
Ronald McDonald for pedophile behavior next!
.
Imagine a group of us sitting together in a library at the small hours of the night, perhaps dressed in proper Victorian fashion, discussing the philosophy of self-realization and intrinsic self-worth and drinking good brandy while the fireplace crackles in the background and the Aussie dog snores softly on a politically unacceptable bearskin rug.
Jan
.
nearly threw me out with the kleenex, as I dragged
my feet for years over fear of another divorce. . when
I finally came around, the side of her which was
beginning to turn prickly changed to spicy again,
and we were off to the races!!! -- j
.
chart, below in response to K, and put that together
with her "killer post" memo in my mind. . it hurt to
see the word used in that flow chart. -- j
.
showed that the successes of Rand's characters
concluded with rape -- don't know how to include
it here. . it's in a word doc on this computer. . maybe
you have seen it. -- j
p.s. found it -- http://www.cracked.com/funny-304-ayn-ran...
.
that they should be lovers, so they just followed
the knowledge. . the book, which I read before
seeing the movie, was heavy in the mystic sense
of just knowing . and it sure is beautiful country
up there in Iowa!!! -- j
.
.
evident in the full range of the lives of her main
characters. . they were strong!!! -- j
.
The churches excel particularly at this, by holding the body as a whole, with all its desires, to be sinful. Cultures which practise arranged marriages are almost as bad, because they violate people's mating preferences. History shows that the more you can dampen people's sexual expression, the easier it becomes to control them.
It's a reflection on our society today that people throw around the 'R'-word whenever they see strong individuals in AR's novels celebrating their lives and their passions with carnal connection.
rape attributed to Rand. . and then, this:::
http://www.cracked.com/funny-304-ayn-ran...
that, plus K's "killer posts" memo, got us here. -- j
.
.
just observing the facts. . the exclamation point
made the mistake worse. -- j
p.s. the same is true for my wife -- but it's history
which we don't visit often.
.
grouped together, in my view -- from fraud to rape
to murder. . a continuum of evil. -- j
.
Dagny entered the tunnel expecting him to follow, and wanting him to follow.
behind
K's "killer post" memo. . it's always intrigued me,
since I have felt much the same at times in my life.
strong love and strong lovemaking go together,
in my experience. . it hurt when I saw the word
"rape" on that site. -- j
.
version earlier, I bet!!! -- j
.
chart, plus other criticism which I'd heard:::
http://www.cracked.com/funny-304-ayn-ran...
it hung with me and annoyed me. -- j
.
http://www.cracked.com/funny-304-ayn-ran...
then I got pissed. . then K's "killer posts" memo,
and here we are. . some people can find fault
in elegant writing like Rand's. . they must hate sunsets. -- j
.
With Roark and Dominique, it kind of seemed like they had this unspoken agreement before the first encounter. They kept doing that thing staring each other down, and she tried to intimate him into averting his eyes when she glared at him like a peon. Maybe all that and the demeaning comments she made were a tacit invitation to what happened. It was very tacit, and I was confused at first. When she kept going on dates with him that ended with her demeaning him and goading him into going after her, it was clear at that point that this was just their kink, making me think the same unspoken kink had been going on from the beginning.
character merging life with another strong character.
then, in AS, it was like the inevitable joining of two
people who knew it was right. . they way that they
knew involves feminine signals and male intuition,
both rather murky areas. . imho. -- j
.
head (Roark & Dominique), I was shocked and hor-
rified. ( Of course, she had hit him previously with a
riding whip). I read in a collection of letters of Ayn
Rand, that she said that it was a symbolic action
that Dominique had all but invited. Also, she said that an actual rape of an unwilling victim
would be terrible. She said things that indicated
that she did not think men should be allowed to
go around raping women.--(But I wonder about a
man unilaterally deciding in his own mind what
someone else really wants). But in Atlas Shrugged (the novel) there is no rape.
we don't get rough with one another, because there
is enough pain already. . but spicy is wonderful.
the reluctance on Dominique's part to acknowledge
her expressed desire made the scene more than
spicy. . Roark watched as she changed from
"Don't. . Stop." to "Don't stop!" . Yes? -- j
.
I feel so used. Waaahhhhh!
yet) -- and criticism of Rand in things like this:::
http://www.cracked.com/funny-304-ayn-ran...
it pissed me off. -- j
.
discredit anyone who believes in honest straight-at'cha
value-for-value living. . and loving. -- j
.
I thought she was hugging him and stuff during
the procedure.
It's is more difficult to make it clear that it was not rape in the movie than the book - in the movie were weren't inside Dagny's head, but in the book we were - and it was not rape.