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In Memoriam

Posted by straightlinelogic 8 years, 11 months ago to Government
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On Memorial Day, America remembers and honors those who died while serving in the military. It is altogether fitting and proper to ask: for what did they die? Do the rationales offered by the military and government officials who decide when and how the US will go to war, and embraced by the public, particularly those who lose loved ones, stand up to scrutiny and analysis? Some will recoil, claiming it inappropriate on a day devoted to honoring the dead. However, it is because war is a matter of life and death, for members of the military and, inevitably, civilians, that its putative justifications be subject to the strictest tests of truth and the most probing of analyses.

This is an excerpt. The rest of the article can be accessed via the link above.
SOURCE URL: http://straightlinelogic.com/2015/05/25/in-memorium-by-robert-gore/


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    Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 11 months ago
    "You have chosen to risk your lives for the defense of this country. I will not insult you by saying that you are dedicated to selfless service — it is not a virtue in my morality. In my morality, the defense of one's country means that a man is personally unwilling to live as the conquered slave of any enemy, foreign or domestic. This is an enormous virtue. Some of you may not be consciously aware of it. I want to help you to realize it.

    The army of a free country has a great responsibility: the right to use force, but not as an instrument of compulsion and brute conquest — as the armies of other countries have done in their histories — only as an instrument of a free nation's self-defense, which means: the defense of a man's individual rights. The principle of using force only in retaliation against those who initiate its use, is the principle of subordinating might to right. The highest integrity and sense of honor are required for such a task. No other army in the world has achieved it. You have."

    Ayn Rand to the class of 1974 at the United States Military Academy at West Point, March 1974
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
    I would just offer this with regards to your assessment of WW II - there were an astounding number of coincidences (I would call them otherwise) with regards to the prosecution of WW II that dramatically affected its outcomes in favor of a free world. And it would not have happened without the intervention of the United States.

    Japan's Admiral Yamamoto advocated for the Pearl Harbor attack only if the American carriers were there. By freak circumstances, none were.

    The Battle of Midway would have gone quite differently had not one Japanese scout plane had a radio malfunction which prevented it from exposing the location of the American Task Force.

    If Germany had left the prosecution of the war for Africa in Rommel's hands instead of being micro-managed by the Fuhrer, the Allies never would have been successful in their landings there, creating a second front.

    If Germany had simple pulled back from St. Petersburg until Spring rather than attempt to fight in the winter, they could have used artillery to bomb the city into submission. Instead, Hitler order the attack and ended up losing 80% to weather and lack of supplies, effectively ending the Eastern Campaign.

    Without that second front in both the Pacific - the Japanese were invading Asia - and in the Atlantic, both Axis powers would have been able to prosecute the remainder of the war with only ONE front to concentrate on, and they would have won. Germany would have developed the atomic bomb in only another six months after the end of the war. Britain would have been forced to capitulate after a single V-2 - for which the British had no answer - laden with one of these had detonated over London. St. Petersburg (aka Stalingrad - the site of Germany's defeat on the Eastern front) would have similarly been turned to rubble.

    An isolationist America during WW II would have resulted in the enslavement of the World.

    That being said, is that justification for carrying the war to other nations in pre-emptive strikes? Not in my opinion. But the argument that a non-interference policy would have worked during WW II is contradicted by all military historians.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
      Leaving aside for a moment the argument about non-interference, some of your assertions about World War II are questionable. Germany did not really have the option to pull back from St. Petersburg because its supply lines were not secure, which as you noted proved a huge problem with the invasion of St. Petersburg. Soviet partisans and guerrilas were interrupting and seizing supplies and would prove a huge problem when the Germans retreated. That supply line problem would also have come into play if they had tried to bomb St. Petersburg into submission--they would have run out of bombs.

      There is absolutely no way that Germany would have had an atomic bomb 6 months after the end of war. The German bomb effort was laughably rudimentary, amply documented in Thomas Powers's Heisenberg's War and Richard Rhodes The Making of the Atomic Bomb. The Germans lacked both the physicists and the industrial infrastructure to make a bomb, and Powers argues that the head of its program, Heisenberg, deliberately spiked the effort. So no, there would not have been atomic bombs dropping on either London or Stalingrad. The "German Atomic Bomb" was mostly dreamed up and perpetuated by US and British intelligence, which knew the truth, to keep scientists in the US working on our bomb and stifling the moral doubts many of them had about it.

      Rejecting your main premise, I also reject that: "An isolationist America during WWII would have resulted in the enslavement of the world." While Americans like to think we won WWII, it was in fact the USSR which inflicted over 80 percent of Germany's casualities and was driving its forces back to Germany well before D-Day. Left unanswered from my article was how either Japan or Germany or both would have been able to invade and conquer the US across two oceans. Maybe US involvement was justified to keep Europe and Asia free from totalitarian domination (an argument that was undercut by our alliances with the USSR and Nationalist China), but the claim that if we hadn't fought we'd be speaking Japanese or German is, I believe, wrong, although of course it is impossible to prove or disprove an assertion based on a counterfactual.
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      • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 11 months ago
        Sorry to say it, but my impression is that you guys are confusing Saint Petersburg and Volgograd.

        The Germans besieged Leningrad (Soviet name for Sankt-Peterburg, the Russian version of Saint Petersburg) from Sep. 8, 1941 (i.e. two and a half months after their original invasion of Russia) until Jan 27, 1944, when the siege was finally lifted.

        Stalingrad was the Soviet-renamed Tsaritsyn (in Russian it means "Empress's") and now named Volgograd. The famous battle of Stalingrad started Aug. 23, 1942 (well more than a year after the original invasion and well after the German failure to take Moscow) and ended with the surrender of von Paulus's army on Feb, 2, 1943, which made visible the beginning of the end of the German Third Reich.

        Tsaritsyn was founded in the 16th century and is located on the right bank of the Volga river, at the Eastern end of Europe. Sankt-Peterburg was founded at the beginning of the 18th century and id located at the estuary of the Neva river into the Baltic Sea.

        Both cities were defended with enormous casualties on both sides. The fact that the Germans never prevailed has remained a source of immense pride among the Russians.

        Facts must remain facts here.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
        Yes, of course it is all supposition based on something that fortunately never came to be, and it is entirely an intellectual exercise in what-if's.

        Here are the factors that get affected by a non-intervention strategy by the US in WW II in Europe

        - no bombing raids by the US from England on Germany's manufacturing and R&D efforts
        - no bombing raids on the V1 and V2 launch platforms
        - no heavy bombers ever get developed for use in the war - arguably the most devastating single advancement of the war
        - no threat of a second front opening up allows for more forces on the Eastern Front against the Russians
        - no reinforcements to the English forces at El Alamein, ceding Africa to the combined German/Italian forces
        - no hope for the beseiged British leads to capitulation under unceasing V2 attacks - even conventional ones

        On the other side of the world

        - invasion of Australia and New Zealand by Japanese forces (aborted after Battle of Coral Sea)
        - China gets completely overrun by the Japanese and its people are systematically butchered (no Fighting Tigers)
        - first Midway, then the Hawaiian islands become Japanese advance bases and territories
        - an assault on the Aleutian Islands (originally part of a feint along with the attack on Midway) turns into an invasion of portions of Alaska and possibly Canada

        At the very best, the US and Canada are left with a hostile force occupying Alaska (and its oil) while England is forced to capitulate and Russia is overwhelmed.

        Now since everything is a hypothetical, there is no definitive answer one way or the other. But the _likelihood_ of Russia holding out and the _likelihood_ of Britain repulsing the Germans all without overt US action is in my book very small indeed.
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      • Posted by Flootus5 8 years, 11 months ago
        I read an interesting tome called "Union Now With Britain" by Clarence K Streit. Published in 1941, it was the foremost manifesto of a rather significant movement in both Great Britain and it's protectorates worldwide and in America to actually merge - not just ally - all English speaking peoples worldwide in common defense against the way the world appeared to be going at that time.

        An interesting read, it goes into depth as to how the respective Constitutions would be merged, respecting the generally commonly held traditions of elective representative government, and the traditions of Anglo Common Law.

        But to the point here, Streit makes one rather compelling argument in favor of the idea. If Great Britain were to succumb to Germany, Britain's world dominating Navy would then be Germany's Navy. A rather daunting prospect should Germany have then ruled the waves. America's Navy was yet quite unprepared, running a close game with a rampaging Japan after Pearl Harbor. Things may have indeed turned out quite different. Recall the concern and motive for Britain to attempt to scuttle the captured French Mediterranean Fleet rather than allow the ships to fall into German hands.

        Alternative What If histories are a lot of fun to pursue, but geez, many things could have changed the course of that war at hundreds of junctures. The code breaking history is incredible in itself.
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  • Posted by bsmith51 8 years, 11 months ago
    They may fight for their country or their government, but soldiers in battle die for their fellow soldiers, their buddies, their unit.
    When I joined, we were told that the navy existed for two purposes: sea control and force projection. But absent all out war, trying to force change on those not ready for it is akin to pushing on a rope. We should remember the Chinese axiom that, "When the student is ready, the teacher appears."
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
    Robert, I must take exception to the quote which
    you cite from Pinnacle:::
    “You don’t fight for your country, you fight for your
    government.”

    I fought for my country, in spite of my government.
    I was overseas during Nixon's resignation. . None
    of the news made me drool over my government.
    But the nation of my birth, with which I [like Rand]
    had fallen desperately in love, in which my family
    and friends lived, where I hoped to live for a long
    time and raise a family -- this nation was my mistress.
    My wife of one year was left behind. . She was not
    pregnant. . I wanted to return in one piece.

    While I bought your book and love it, I fought
    for my nation. . john mason, usaf lt col retired
    .
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    • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
      I respect your feelings. They are, I'm sure, similar to the feelings that motivate many people in the military. However, it is the government that decided who and where you would fight, and for what reasons, not the nation, and I argue in this and other articles on http://straightlinelogic.com, that many of those decisions have been, over the decades, inimical to the best interests of the nation.

      From your own words, if you believed you were fighting for your country, "in spite" of the government, that implies that the interests of the nation and the government were opposed at the time you served. Contradictions, as Ayn Rand often noted, cannot exist. It was the government you were fighting for, whose orders you were following. If the interests of the nation and the government were opposed, you were fighting against the interests of the nation.
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      • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
        Yessir, we agree. . I fought for the nation which I
        wished I was serving, for the family and friends whom
        I wished I had been serving well, and for the future
        which I wished I had had. . and I busted my ass. . for
        what? . we lost more than 50,000 lives defending
        freedom for people who were mostly pawns in an
        international tussle between us, the ussr and china.
        if we had treated it like korea, it would have been
        different. . we still have korea under our wing. . hey,
        we still have germany under our wing. . and the
        phillippines. . some of these overseas adventures
        have been more of a success than others.

        I was a kid, 24, and y'all taxpayers had paid for
        much of my ME degree. . I was fighting for you, as
        a loyal employee. . it's just that the orders weren't
        yours -- they were "theirs" -- that nameless they
        who have led this nation to the cliff and are now
        trying to push it over. . awsh!!....... -- j

        p.s. OK, "they" do have names -- I just didn't
        want to get into that right now. . very long list.

        p.p.s. I had been studying Rand for 9 years then,
        and knew that the contradiction was there -- and
        taking its toll on the nation. . it has since been
        resolved. . we're essentially sunk.
        .
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        • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
          I never served in the military, but I think, within the limits of my own experience, that I understand and share your disillusionment.
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          • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
            the intensity of sentiment -- for the nation, for one
            another, for our people here in the u.s. -- is stronger
            than it is with other people, in my experience. . trying,
            with your life on the line, to do your best to prevent
            damage to yourself, your team, your family, your
            friends, your nation -- it's a strong feeling.

            like Galt and Rand, we love life and all of the aspects
            of it which are valuable. . very heartily. -- j
            .
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 11 months ago
    My wife, out of the blue while we were making breakfast yesterday, mentioned how she felt like she was struggling with all the unabashed patriotism she was seeing on social media. We discussed. Such discussions often return to, "Just what are we doing here?"
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 11 months ago
    A great quote and a great clarification. Unfortunately, it is too rational. In the USA emotion and false objectives have supplanted logic, especially straight line logic. In truth, most soldiers don't know what the hell they are fighting for any more than they know what's in their breakfast cereal. I still honor them. It takes a very special person who is willing to do what they do. Most of us cannot be military and we must rely on these brave souls to do the dirty work. But our country hardly exists anymore and our government has become a multilayered labyrinth of obfuscation and confusion.
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  • Posted by cjferraris 8 years, 11 months ago
    I served from 1982-1986 and when I was in, we were in the middle of the "Cold War". The reason I enlisted was so that when I had children, I was hoping they would never have to go to war. The overwhelming feeling that I got, from the other airmen I served with, was that if we did our jobs right, perhaps there would be no need for us... I know it sounds a little idealistic, but we were hoping we made a difference.
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    • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 11 months ago
      You did make a difference. Your strength and the enemy's strenuous efforts to try to match it greatly hastened their collapse. If you had not kept a part of the planet free of communists, I would have had no place to escape to from under the communist tyranny. THANK YOU!!!
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      • Posted by cjferraris 8 years, 11 months ago
        I know that some people think it's corny, but I'm glad that when I was in, the USA was a bastion of freedom that people sought out because at the time, we DID stand for something. The thanks I appreciate, but they were not necessary because I was doing it for selfish reasons. Like I said, I didn't want my children to have to fight for their survival. Unfortunately, our politicians seem to have made things to where they may have to.
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        • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 11 months ago
          I certainly expected you to have done it out of your rational self-interest. In your comments you gave me enough evidence to show me that to be true.

          I am equally worried about my grandchildren. The country has changed a lot since we immigrated as newlyweds (Jan. 1967). I think that people get the governments they deserve. I also think if we could find few excellent leaders among some of the politicians, they could lead the people to a bit more wisdom and less blind trust in the government and more of it as the solution for everything. Remember Reagan after Carter?

          Thank you again for the benefits I received because of your choices.
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