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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 11 months ago
    FreeBorn; I'm afraid I see your first two stories quite a bit differently.

    In the first case, the monkeys are voluntary slaves. They don't know any different and haven't used their minds to understand reality. They blindly accept their positions because they're just too mentally lazy to understand. Kind of like socialists. One mind, with rational thought seeing reality for what it is and applying logical reason to it can affect his entire community. What I don't understand is why the monkeys went back to the compound, had to tear it down, and kill the old man. Their understanding came to them while they were in the mountains.

    The second story is often referenced by libertarians to point out the worth of a free market society, freedom, and the concept of value for value.

    All I got from the third was the Guggenheim home page with no specific story referenced.
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    • -2
      Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
      Try that link again, it took me to the right page.
      The story is Looking Backwards by Edward Bellamy.

      I wouldn't advocate killing the people currently enslaving us, but I'd imagine that there will be line if you did want to do that once the monkeys figure out that they have been duped.
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  • -2
    Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
    Still getting the hang of this board,...

    Here it is in a nutshell,...

    We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.

    Here are some analogies,....
    http://thesocietypages.org/monte/2013/12...
    http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.php
    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/624/624-h...
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    • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 11 months ago
      Actually we don't have to have workers as we become more automated.

      We need a currency, dollars work just fine but better would be produce (perishable and needed) or gold/silver (coveted), to ensure there is a marketplace without having to carry a pig/cow to market to barter.

      The value of people is what they can do for me and I for them. Anything less than that I seldom offer payment. Capitalism is the closest thing to nirvana for a society - done properly its true equal opportunity for all.
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      • -2
        Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
        Your advocacy of a market makes people commodities, only worth what the market will bear.
        What value does the severely autistic person have?
        Perhaps their perspective gives us humanity but no cash value.
        Do you advocate the elimination of those not marketable?
        Crapitalism is the closest to nirvana that those with crapital can get, it is a nightmare of forced slavery if your dad drank up all his money and left you with nothing.
        Do you like living in a world where children have a market price and are marketable products?
        Where the only choice is to submit to enriching somebody else already richer than you with the value that your work creates or starving?
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        • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 11 months ago
          value for value...this makes people and their skills commodities. The only way an individual holds value in society is by what he/she brings to that society either in labor or intellectual property (you do believe in intellectual property?). If a person brings nothing to society he/she is a leech, a moocher, and is nothing but a drain on everyone and everything.

          Do you advocate the elimination of those not marketable?
          - Nope. I insist on people doing for themselves as I do. Problem?

          Crapitalism is the closest to nirvana that those with crapital can get, it is a nightmare of forced slavery if your dad drank up all his money and left you with nothing.
          - No one is entitled to anything from anyone - including parents. Do for yourself with the hand life has dealt you. There is always a way. I've never taken unemployment or welfare. I've created jobs and now create novels. Problem?

          Do you like living in a world where children have a market price and are marketable products?

          - do you mean like welfare recipients getting more money for sh*tting out another child? Last I checked I've never bought or sold a child or anyone. Please elaborate.

          Where the only choice is to submit to enriching somebody else already richer than you with the value that your work creates or starving?

          - Jobs pay wages. Skills provide the ability to get jobs. Logic = obtain skills/develop and get job.

          You cannot mandate charity (taxes) and have it be charity - this is not freedom its theft.
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          • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
            Do you advocate the elimination of those not marketable?
            - Nope. I insist on people doing for themselves as I do. Problem?
            So how do you account for those too ill or old to produce?

            Crapitalism is the closest to nirvana that those with crapital can get, it is a nightmare of forced slavery if your dad drank up all his money and left you with nothing.
            - No one is entitled to anything from anyone - including parents. Do for yourself with the hand life has dealt you. There is always a way. I've never taken unemployment or welfare. I've created jobs and now create novels. Problem?
            I'm with you, if one submits to the exploitation one can make himself quite comfortable.


            Do you like living in a world where children have a market price and are marketable products?

            - do you mean like welfare recipients getting more money for sh*tting out another child? Last I checked I've never bought or sold a child or anyone. Please elaborate.
            I'm referring to human trafficking, as long as dollars and crapitalism exist people will be viewed as commodities and children will be bought and sold.
            My proposal eliminates that, crapitalism perpetuates it.

            Where the only choice is to submit to enriching somebody else already richer than you with the value that your work creates or starving?

            - Jobs pay wages. Skills provide the ability to get jobs. Logic = obtain skills/develop and get job.
            So, yes, submit to the exploitation and stop crying,...

            You cannot mandate charity (taxes) and have it be charity - this is not freedom its theft.
            I don't advocate charity, I end it. No longer will the shareholder live on the charity created by the difference between wages and profits.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 8 years, 11 months ago
            You do not create novels.
            Obviously you haven't been listening to the messiah... somebody else created that novel...

            /sarc
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          • -2
            Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
            Value for value insures that children will always be sold as slaves, are you good with that?
            Valuing people makes them little better than cattle.

            Your belief that only production that fits your bill of goods is valuable, belies your lack of humanity, what of the autistic person that gives you a new perspective on your lack of humanity.
            Do you advocate for the slaughter of those not capable of producing for you?

            My proposal ends prostitution, human trafficking, and drug pushing by removing the profits in doing so.
            No longer will parents view their children as resources to be exploited when they can get what the want from the work of others in return for their contribution of their own labor.
            As long as greed is the ultimate value people will be little more than cattle herded to be slaughtered by those that have more crapital than them.

            I'm not asking something for nothing, we each must produce more than we consume or we are parasites on those that produce more than they consume.
            All I'm saying is that crapitalism, and currencies, allow some to eat without contributing anything.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
              “Value for value insures that children will always be sold as slaves, are you good with that? Valuing people makes them little better than cattle.”
              I would be against trading stuff too if it made us slaves, but it doesn't. We all want things from one another. One ways to get them is people freely giving each other things in trade. The other way is some form manipulation, guilt, guns, chains, jails, etc. To paraphrase Atlas Shrugged, there is no third choice.

              “Your belief that only production that fits your bill of goods is valuable, belies your lack of humanity, what of the autistic person that gives you a new perspective on your lack of humanity. Do you advocate for the slaughter of those not capable of producing for you?”
              You might like the Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. The protagonist is weird, possibly on the autism spectrum; maybe not, but definitely a weirdo. People don't appreciate his art and instead sheepishly follow art critics' opinions. Sometimes he has to do menial work to pay the bills. At one point meets a troubled boy. The boy sees his work, and it changes the boy's life forever. The protagonist wasn't after money but was after sharing his art with people like that boy.

              People valuing what other people make through their hard work, creativity, and ingenuity is what humanity is about.
              “My proposal ends prostitution, human trafficking, and drug pushing by removing the profits in doing so. 
              No longer will parents view their children as resources to be exploited when they can get what the want from the work of others in return for their contribution of their own labor.”

              I simply don't believe this. Any problem looks simple as a block diagram on a white board. Reality bites you when you actually start putting together prototypes. I would love for you to put together a prototype intentional community, but I predict you would have major problems. I still honestly support your trying. I'm always open to evidence proving me wrong.
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            • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 11 months ago
              Thats just it, we do not each need to produce for everyone else. We need to produce enough for yourself and those you choose to support. The excess of what we produce can be sold to others to better their lives.

              Think on this: Would you let me make your heath-care and lifestyle decisions for you? Why not?
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              • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                Who is advocating for you making my choices, I am advocating the end of the system that rewards banksters to the detriment of the producers.

                How much less would you have to work if you didn't work for $10 an hour while paying the plumber $50?
                Wouldn't it be better if you worked and didn't pay the plumber anything else?
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      • -2
        Posted by Hiraghm 8 years, 11 months ago
        I'd give you a thumbs up, but sdesapio made it so I can't.
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        • Posted by khalling 8 years, 11 months ago
          stop it. you know all you have to do. btw, how ya been? I'm going to talk about you tomorrow-your ears must have been burning
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          • -2
            Posted by Hiraghm 8 years, 11 months ago
            yeah, he says I have to start a new account. I'm not going to do that.

            What I said was perfectly true; he made it so I couldn't give thumbs up.

            And I been getting older, tyvm. That's pretty much it.

            Why am I worth talking about today?
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        • -1
          Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
          Thanks, I don't get many of those, as you can imagine,...
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 11 months ago
            Objectivism completely contradicts communism. This is why your ideas don't get many up-votes. On a positive note your ideas fit well into communism, socialism and even islam.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
              I don't fit into religions too well, if there was a god(in the common definition) he would have to be destroyed as being inimical to human liberty.
              I do have a religion that incorporates and ultimate good and ultimate evil, but it is the people in between that cause all the actions and not the 'god' or 'satan'.
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    • Posted by sdesapio 8 years, 11 months ago
      RE: "Still getting the hang of this board"
      Take a guided tour: http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/hot?walk...

      RE: "The end of crapitalism and it's inherent oppression of the worker."
      Can you please explain, in your own words, what you mean by Capitalism's "inherent oppression of the worker?" (Use the reply button directly below this comment to respond.)
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      • -6
        Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
        I mean that the choice between submit to the lowest wage paid for your skill set/experience or live under a bridge is not a free choice.
        Starve or submit to the system is slavery, albeit wage slavery.
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        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
          You are doing it wrong. You need to get the highest wage paid for your skill set/experience. If there aren't a lot of well paid jobs available, then maybe the fault is your skill set and experience. Fix that.

          If no one wants to hire you for a job, then maybe you should start your own. If that doesn't seem an option, then once again your skill set and experience might not be as great as you think it is.

          What you seem to want is the government, i.e. someone with a gun, to come along and make someone pay you more than they think your work is worth.
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          • -3
            Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
            Sorry, but more armed thugs is the last thing I want, my proposal is freely adopted by knowledgeable people or it doesn't fly.
            I get enough guns pointed at me telling me 'you can't camp there' and 'you have to get a job or we will arrest you for vagrancy', I don't want to be the new boss, same as the old boss.
            What I propose is that the worker continue working but not for wages, but because if we don't work we starve.
            In return for the worker continuing to work she can order whatever products are available to be had at no additional cost.
            And just to prove that we are not crapitalists we will carry the bums because it is worse to enslave him than it is to carry him.
            His being a bum reflects badly on him, but my choice to enslave him, or starve her into submission, reflects poorly on me.

            Why do you figure that crapitalism is the preferred choice of dictators worldwide?
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            • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
              The essence of government is force. That force can start out gentle but if you resist, in the end someone with a gun will enforce it.

              So, someone can work busing tables and order a leer jet because one is available? There has to be a way to evaluate what someone's work is worth and that value is determined by the marketplace, not by someone's wishful thinking.

              If someone is a dictator than they aren't practicing capitalism.

              As far as your use of 'crapitalism', using made-up words implies sloppy thinking and lets one decide that A=B
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              • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                If someone is a dictator than they aren't practicing capitalism.
                I missed that the first time,....if the boss isn't an ultimate dictator who is?
                He dictates what you do, when you do it, and what you wear while doing it all under the penalty of starvation and homelessness.
                Clearly your view of crapitalism is far too rosy.
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              • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                Don't you see that one valuing humans on their market value dehumanizes us?
                Yes, the bus boy has as much claim on the lear jet as anybody else.
                Working entitles you to one share of the work.
                However, what would a bus boy do with a lear jet sitting in a hanger and not getting used much?
                Why wouldn't he just go to the airport and get on one when he needed to go somewhere?
                Isn't having something and not using it wasting the time of the workers that created it?
                Under my proposal doing so would be recognized as needless consumption.
                Why have a car when you can call to get a ride?
                Why store a boat for months when you can get one from the pool of boats when you need it?
                I am suggesting a paradigm change and you are trying to force the viewpoint of the current system on it.
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        • Posted by sdesapio 8 years, 11 months ago
          RE: " the choice between submit to the lowest wage paid for your skill set/experience or live under a bridge"
          Is this not a false choice? We all have to start somewhere. Why not a choice between 1. accepting the lowest wage paid and 2. educating yourself to make yourself more valuable to potential employers? My first job was digging trees out of the ground. It didn't take me long to figure out that I needed to make myself more valuable.

          Edit: provided some context for clarity.
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          • -2
            Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
            How false is it, if I don't pay rent, or mortgage payments, I lose my place to live. Bridges at least keep the rain off and are mostly unoccupied.
            If I don't work for a wage, or create a business to exploit my neighbors' inability to provide the goods or sevices my business provides then I don't eat.
            The choice is to submit to crapitalism or starve.
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        • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 11 months ago
          If I offer a job to someone at $15/hr. Its up to the individual who seeks me out by submitting a resume or application to accept the wage I'm willing to pay. No one forces that person to accept my wage or live under a bridge - thats free choice. Or that person can keep looking and find another job (even if he has to relocate to take it) outside is skill set that pays more to carve out a living. Or that person, like me, can create something that appeals to people, that people will buy to make his income.

          In this welfare state, one could allow himself to be collared by the slave master and accept public assistance, public housing, and public food allotment.

          There is always a choice. There isn't always individuals willing to truly live their lives.
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          • -3
            Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
            If the owners of crapital know that they can get workers to work at $15 an hour why would they pay more even when that work creates $100's per hour?
            The choice in this scenario is to submit to the prevailing wage or starve, even though your work creates exponentially more than $15 dollars an hour.
            And you are correct, no person forces me in person to submit, just hunger and the yearning to get out from under this bridge.
            However, paying me less than I create in value because I prefer to eat is forcing me to submit to your exploitation at the hands of crapitalism.
            Just because crapitalism has served you enough to keep you in favor of it doesn't change it's nature, just your perception of it.
            Wage slavery is slavery nonetheless.
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            • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 11 months ago
              I'd automate and put them all out of work. Does that make me evil for providing all I can for myself and mine?

              Question do you deserve more in wages solely because you need? Do you determine your needs? If so, why should my money be given to you without me gaining something in return, the ability to dictate what you need or don't need?

              Wage slavery? LOL, thats an oxymoron.
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              • -3
                Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
                Absolutely not, anything that reduces the collective labor needed to feed, clothe, shelter, and pamper the human race is net positive.
                Why do we have to have money?
                The average worker doesn't give one whit if the accounting department takes a permanent vacation.
                As long as the workers continue to supply the shelves we don't need anybody else.
                Instead of submitting to a ruling class eating lavishly from our work, and not their own, we can throw of the monkey master and enjoy the gains in efficiency for ourselves.

                Despite all the automation efficiency increases the average work week has not decreased since the anarchists forced the 8 hour day at the end of the 19th century.
                Crapitalism and freedom are oxymorons.
                Even chattel slaves of the antebellum were mostly allowed half of Saturday and all of Sunday to do as they pleased.
                Just because all of the value they created accrued to the crapitalist rather than whatever percentage that prevails today only changes the slavery by degree and not in fact.
                If only 60% of the value my labor creates goes to the master instead of 100% doesn't make any less a slave, just a better compensated one.
                I have no choice but to submit to the exploitation of the masters, be they the banksters of my business, a boss of his own business that employs me, or a shareholder in a corporation, either I submit to their extortion or I live under a bridge.
                Hardly a free choice.
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                • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 11 months ago
                  Seriously? Is that a joke?

                  We have money (paper promissory notes and metal) because people grew tired of caring their livestock to market to barter.

                  Capitalism is equality. Capitalism is freedom. Entreat me, explain how capitalism and freedom are oxymoron's please.

                  You're mind is "to each according to his need. From each according to his ability" - thats collectivism aka communism. Communism has the honor of killing more people in the face of the earth in the name of "equality" than any other ideology (islam has to be close).


                  FYI: I haven't worked for anyone in 17 years.
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                  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                    Capitalism is equality. Capitalism is freedom. Entreat me, explain how capitalism and freedom are oxymoron's please.

                    How, exactly, am I the equal of the shareholder?
                    I do all the work and he gets all the profits that my production creates minus the wage he has to give to keep me from starving or deserting.

                    How is choosing between exploitation, wage slavery, and starving homelessness freedom?
                    If I could have a home and supper without submitting to wage slavery then you could say I was free, and a parasite if I didn't find something productive to do.
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                  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                    If you don't work for somebody how do you get money to eat?
                    There is no communism in Russia, Emma Goldman
                    Just search that in startpage.com.
                    it is an on the spot report from a lady that knows what communism is.
                    Crapitalism is slavery. If my choice is submit to the exploitation of someone with more than me or starve I am his slave.
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                • Posted by sdesapio 8 years, 11 months ago
                  Just a guess... but... you haven't read much Rand have you? How did you end up here in the Gulch if you don't mind me asking?
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                  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                    Yes, I have read Rand. She was a weigh point on my road to anarcho-communism.
                    I am in the gulch because I think that most of the people here are just one step from the final truth, ie, wage slavery is still slavery.
                    Exploiting people by paying a wage less than what is created by their labor and living from that excess is parasitical on that worker.
                    The boss is exploiting the worker's poverty.
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                • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
                  "Anything that reduces the collective labor needed to feed, clothe, shelter, and pamper the human race is net positive. "
                  I strongly agree. Productivity = goods and services produced / hours to produce them.

                  "Why do we have to have money? The average worker doesn't give one whit if the accounting department takes a permanent vacation. "
                  I recommend the first chapter or two of The Lean Startup for this question. It talks about how the importance to a startup business of working out exactly what to produce.
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
                    "Anything that reduces the collective labor needed to feed, clothe, shelter, and pamper the human race is net positive."
                    I would like to add that this one line about producing more with less work being a good thing is the only part I agree with.
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                    • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                      Well, then you should enjoy my proposal, I propose that we work around 20,000 hours in productive labor to retire to luxury rather than crapitalism's requirement of 100,000+ hours of toil for retirement to the poverty of social security.
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                  • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                    Ok, but if we coop the structure that is Costco to our purposes we wont need to startup new businesses.
                    As long as the people that work today work tomorrow we can just stop paying at the pump and everything is free.
                    Naturally those workers are going to want help, and it is up to those without productive labor to find some.
                    Only instead of accounting for it in a system that rewards the parasites the most we just order what we need from the net to be delivered to our door.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
              "If the owners of crapital know that they can get workers to work at $15 an hour why would they pay more even when that work creates $100's per hour?
              The choice in this scenario is to submit to the prevailing wage or starve, even though your work creates exponentially more than $15 dollars an hour."
              In this scenario competition will appear and undercut the business making an $85 spread on labor. The competition might come from someone who works in that $15 an hour job and realizes there's a huge profit margin given his pay plus cost of materials. He can't morally poach his employers customers, but he can use their business model to go out and get his own customers using what he learned on the job.
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              • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                Or we can dispense with the accounting system that creates this possibility and just order what we want from the net while working a productive job.
                The worker doesn't care if the shareholders get their cut, as long as he puts goods on the shelves the shareholders can take a rocket to the moon and the shelves are still full.
                Under my proposal he can have luxury goods for the asking.
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        • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
          FBA, welcome! . I mowed lawns, and did it so well
          that -- in 1959 -- I was making five dollars an hour.
          the minimum wage then was about a dollar and a
          quarter. . now, the mower was provided by my folks
          as was the grinder where I sharpened its blade, but
          the fuel and the oil and the ice water I bought or
          scrounged. . I always had more lawns than I could
          easily handle, given the weather. . had to turn people
          down, who wanted me to do their lawn.

          taught me something. . still have the schwinn
          10-speed which I bought with my profits and rode
          to check lawns to see when they were ready for mowing.
          capitalism allows those with some initiative and talent
          to make a way for themselves, unimpeded. . I did. -- john
          .
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          • -2
            Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
            What a wonderful crapitaist success story!
            Wouldn't it have been better if you had mowed their lawns out of love for them and they in turn reciprocated your labor with a labor of love of their own, perhaps supper or that old bicycle in the garage?

            Forcing people into the market for currency is forcing them into slavery when the only commodity available to trade for currency is their time.
            What a wonderful father you had, he didn't drink up the money that paid for that lawnmower, do you figure that if your dad had done that you would have a less rosy perception of crapitalism and wage slavery?
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            • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
              So the way this is supposed to work, I wake up in the morning and do something I feel like doing, say I decide to weed my neighbor's lawn.

              And, somehow, someone else randomly decides that what he wants to do is to feed me a steak dinner that evening?

              Do I actually have to weed the lawn or can I simply surf the web and then spend the evening wandering around seeing if anyone feels inspired to feed me?

              The point of wages is to place an agreed upon value of my labor which can be exchanged for the labor of the guy raising the cow, the guy butchering it, the truck driver who brought it to the restaurant, the chef who cooks it and the waiter who put's it on the table.

              And all these people are going to do all these things because they feel like it? With no connection to feeding their own families?

              Do you represent the lollipop guild?
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              • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                I agree, somebody is going to have to work at the shoe factory if we want shoes.
                The current number in use is 20,000 hours, but I don't have access to the data needed to be certain that that number creates enough goods to balance out a lifetime of consumption for sure.
                Regardless it beats the 100,000+ hours required by crapitalism for a retirement to poverty.
                Once those hours are met then you can weed your neighbors garden all you want, or you can continue your research into advanced physics, whatever floats your boat.
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                • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                  I get that number by multiplying 20 hours a week for 50 weeks a year for the years between 20 and 45.
                  This is the number put forth by Kroptokin in The Conquest of Bread, I can't say for sure that the numbers still suffice to balance out consumption.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
              "they in turn reciprocated your labor with a labor of love of their own, perhaps supper or that old bicycle in the garage?"
              I'm all for barter. I bought used bikes for my kids last year. If they had some electronics that needed fixing, I would have done it in exchange for the bikes. Money allows me to find someone who does need electronics, and then I can take that money and trade it with people who have needs other than electronics.
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              • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                Right, but in the paradigm shift I propose we work because we love working, and not because we have to do it to eat.

                If you had something that needed fixing you would take it to the local guy fixing things.
                No need to barter, everything is free for the asking.
                Once consumption is viewed in the context of the amount of work involved recycling takes on a whole new perspective.
                Do you want to consume a new car, or is a working old one just as good to get you from here to there?
                Do you want to be on the hook for all the hours in producing a car or would you rather just check one out from the motor pool when you need one?

                What I propose is a paradigm shift and requires a new perspective, the old one doesn't suffice.
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            • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
              the link between the love and the supper was the
              money -- freely exchanged in each instance. . there
              was no slavery, or otherwise I would have quit. -- j

              p.s. and "force" is an engineering concept with which
              I am acquainted. . the market is a word for interpersonal
              relationships. . force is a word for violence. . may
              the twain never meet.
              .
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              • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                Ok, then I can come to your house for supper and a bed?

                Oh, you are going to force me to join the market if I want a bed and supper.

                Crapitalism is founded on force, if everything was free for the asking nobody would pay the shareholders anything, but they will work because they want the goods that the division of labor provides.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
          What's the alternative? How do you get people to provide you food and shelter, which require work and scarce resources to produce, unless you provide something to them in exchange?
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          • -2
            Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
            What evidence do you have that resources are scarce?
            The only scarcity is forced scarcity in the interests of more profits.
            There are plenty of resources to provide food, clothing, and shelter to every human being and domesticated animal on the planet. If you had the money to pay for it it would be made available to you, correct?

            The alternative is working for a share of the work.
            Food, clothing, and shelter being the priorities and maseratis, et al, being the perks of the division of labor.

            A system that puts 50% of the resources in the hands of 1% of the population has issues for the bottom 10% that won't be corrected by shuffling the deck chairs around.

            Paradigm shift is the answer.
            Working because it is your social responsibility, along the lines of cutting your hair, shaving your face, mowing your lawn, and wearing pants in public, and not because you will starve if you don't is a much better management system than crapitalism.

            We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.
            We have to have somebody make the shoes, we don't have to grovel at the banksters feet to get them.
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            • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 11 months ago
              Do you realize that you're on a site dedicated to Objectivism, Ayn Rand, and Atlas Shrugged? You obviously believe that the world and society owes you the means of life just because you exist.

              You were born into this world with a brain. I might suggest that you start using it. If you think that all of those "plenty of resources to provide food, clothing, and shelter to every human being and domesticated animal on the planet" just exist out there for you to use, I'd suggest that you go right on out and start plowing, Oops I forgot that you don't own a plow and since you don't want to work for money you don't have anything to use to get someone else's or get someone else to build you one and if you did you can't get someone to deliver the metal for it or to smelt and cast the metal or to find and dig the ore out of the ground or to build or design the machinery needed to do all of that.

              Then, if you manage to figure out how to plow, maybe using a branch you broke of a tree like your long ago ancestors did, then you can start planting the seeds, Ooops again, I forgot that you don't have any seeds and since you don't work for money you don't have anything to use to get someone else's seeds, or to get someone else to deliver them, or to get someone to clean and sort them and package them for delivery, or to pick and gather them, or to plant the first ones, or to, damn, we're back to planting again.

              And none of that considers that the land you think you ought to be able to plow and plant belongs to someone else that's already growing and raising the things he needs to support his life and his children's. And if you take the extra he's grown, then he won't be able to trade that for the medicine he needs for his children. Damn, this get's complicated, doesn't it?

              You, young ignorant person, are a fool. While you're under that bridge, you might see if you can borrow some books, that a lot of people working for money developed, gathered all the information for, wrote, edited, printed, put a cover on, shipped, and sold to someone to support their life needs--study them and begin to educate yourself.

              But I doubt that you will do that.
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              • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                You obviously believe that the world and society owes you the means of life just because you exist.

                You obviously didn't read the proposal.
                And yes, the society owes me more than a boot on my face for eternity.

                The proposal is that the workers continue to work but instead of rewarding the banksters and shareholders they just order what they want from the net.
                We have to have workers, we don't have to have dollars.

                You were born into this world with a brain. I might suggest that you start using it.
                Sweet jesus,.....
                I used my brain to devise a system that doesn't hinge on slavery to continue.
                Currently we live on the backs of Chinese slaves, but that is coming to an end.
                At one time we used our own poor, but now the poor of the third world have to suffice because our own slaves wanted too much in rent.
                'We used to own our slaves, now we just rent them.' Edward R Murrow

                Oops I forgot that you don't own a plow and since you don't want to work for money you don't have anything to use to get someone else's or get someone else to build you one and if you did you can't get someone to deliver the metal for it or to smelt and cast the metal or to find and dig the ore out of the ground or to build or design the machinery needed to do all of that.
                What part of 'continue to work' did you miss?
                We don't have to have dollars, we do have to have workers.
                It is your ignorance of what you have read that is showing.
                Not once have I asked something for nothing and continuously have said that we have to have workers.

                the land you think you ought to be able to plow and plant belongs to someone else
                By that you mean that you will kill me to keep me off the land?
                Your system lives on it's thugs' ability to keep the slaves in line, perhaps you should reevaluate your position.

                I am neither young nor a fool, I have just looked outside my slave mentality to see that there is a world outside what the masters have determined.
                Haven't you read Anthem?
                Or do you just ignore that so you can feel powerful in denigrating your intellectual superiors?

                Look outside the matrix created for you by those that would keep you on the farm.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
              "What evidence do you have that resources are scarce? The only scarcity is forced scarcity in the interests of more profits. "
              Energy, human time, land, and other means of production clearly are not limitless.

              "There are plenty of resources to provide food, clothing, and shelter to every human being and domesticated animal on the planet."
              I agree.

              "If you had the money to pay for it it would be made available to you, correct?"
              Yes. There's a supply and demand curve, which in equilibrium has quantity supplied = quantity demanded.

              "The alternative is working for a share of the work. Food, clothing, and shelter being the priorities and maseratis, et al, being the perks of the division of labor. "
              Does "working for a share of the work" mean you're only working for the cause of providing for the community, but not for providing for yourself? The things you make are "perks" for others?

              "A system that puts 50% of the resources in the hands of 1% of the population has issues for the bottom 10% that won't be corrected by shuffling the deck chairs around. "
              I agree with this except I don't call people keeping the stuff they make a system. Suppose people freely making stuff and getting to keep it results in concentration of wealth? If so do we simply take wealth from the rich to even things out? Maybe. But I'm loath to steal. And once that money is in gov't coffers, everyone has his hand out for it, and only a tiny fraction of it goes to the poor.

              "Paradigm shift is the answer. Working because it is your social responsibility, along the lines of cutting your hair, shaving your face, mowing your lawn, and wearing pants in public, and not because you will starve if you don't is a much better management system than crapitalism. "
              What if people don't do what you consider their civic duty, i.e. work. Suppose some poor people working in service jobs decide not to do their responsibility. Suppose middle class people decide to spend more precious time with their families and just work 9-5 and leave any customer problems at the office when the clock hits 5. An engineer decides to tinker with ham radio circuits for fun instead of working on a project to make the first smartphones. A smart person who's good fixing things with her hands decides to leave medicine in favor of repairing bikes and small machines because it's less stressful.
              Not everyone would do that, but some people would. Does the gov't go to those people and threaten them with some penalties for not working? If not, we end up with the awful situation of having less, of my kid needing surgery, but there's a shortage. I want to do extra work to make something I can offer to the surgeon, but I can't keep the things I make, and even if I could, the surgeon can't keep the things I give her in exchange for working.

              A customer asking me to stay late to get a circuit working before a trade show is rude and imposing if all I'm just working for my share of work. We all end up being rude and imposing asking each other to solve our problems out of sense of moral responsibility for others.

              "We have to have somebody make the shoes, we don't have to grovel at the banksters feet to get them."
              To get shoes, we need the raw materials plus means of production plus human labor. To get people to give you those three things, you have to give them something. It could be anything, but money is easier b/c you don't have to have on hand exactly what the party happens to want at that moment. This would be a fact regardless of the banking system.
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              • -1
                Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
                'Energy, human time, land, and other means of production clearly are not limitless.'
                Land is not limitless, I agree.
                Energy is free for the taking, ask Tesla.
                Absent the crapialists' need for greed we would have all the energy we need for free.
                People are not in short supply.
                Means of production are only limited by the number of workers to work them.

                '"There are plenty of resources to provide food, clothing, and shelter to every human being and domesticated animal on the planet."
                I agree.'
                Wonderful, at least we don't have to debate this one.

                'Does "working for a share of the work" mean you're only working for the cause of providing for the community, but not for providing for yourself?'
                If we want consumer goods we have to create them. The division of labor is the most efficient means to that end.
                Therefore, the farmer farms, the trucker trucks, the miner mines, the refiner refines, the driller drills and the bus boy busses, all on faith that everybody else is contributing a like amount and in return we order what we want from the net for delivery to our door.
                What we create goes to the common pool and we draw from that pool what we need to continue producing.

                'I agree with this except I don't call people keeping the stuff they make a system.'
                You can call it what you want, but the reality is that the crapitalist system is what is enslaving you.
                You will work to enrich wall street banksters or you can starve under bridge, slave.

                'But I'm loath to steal.'
                Expropriation of personal wealth is not required, we will expropriate any means of production that the 'owners' leave fallow, ie, the waltons will not be driving many of the trucks that currently bring goods to the shelves, leaving those trucks not actually driven by their 'owners' would be silly so we will put them to good use.
                We will not exclude the current owners from our scheme, they can order stuff from the net, too.

                'If so do we simply take wealth from the rich to even things out?'
                We won't have to.
                Can the factory 'owner' work the factory by himself?
                Then the workers will work the factory and just stop taking orders from the boss.
                He can still sit in the office and answer the phone, take orders, and whatever else makes him feel useful, he only loses his life and death hold over the workers.
                Not to say that supervision will cease, just management's ability to starve the worker into submission.

                'And once that money is in gov't coffers,'
                Gov't as you know it will cease, no longer will them most willing to use violence drag us by our hair.
                Rule by force will end.

                'What if people don't do what you consider their civic duty, i.e. work.'
                Rousseau's invisible hand will see to that.
                People will work because it is the right thing to do, those that don't work will take the place in society currently held by those people with signs at the intersections.

                'Suppose middle class people decide to spend more precious time with their families'
                I hope that they do. Crunch the numbers, my proposal leaves far more time for leisure than crapitalism.

                'An engineer decides to tinker with ham radio circuits for fun instead of working on a project to make the first smartphones.'
                Here is the invisible hand again, if nobody steps up to invent the next personal computer then there won't be one, but I doubt this as a likely outcome.
                Imagine r and d limited only by the intelligence of the researcher and not the economics of crapitalism.

                Does the gov't go to those people and threaten them with some penalties for not working?
                NO. Rule by force ends.
                NOBODY will be forced to do anything, though their neighbors may not wish to associate with them.

                of my kid needing surgery, but there's a shortage
                Do you want a surgeon motivated by greed or a surgeon motivated by an irresistible urge to help?
                Which one do you get under crapitalism?
                Healthcare will be performed only by those willing to do it and by none of them that only want the easy work for high pay.

                A customer asking me to stay late to get a circuit working before a trade show is rude and imposing if all I'm just working for my share of work.
                There won't be any trade shows, and the attitude will change from hurry hurry, to manana.
                This was one of the things I learned in mexico, why kill ourselves to make the jefe rich when we can just do it tomorrow?

                you have to give them something.
                I am giving them access to luxury, something crapitalism must deny them.

                but money is easier b/c you don't have to have on hand exactly what the party happens to want at that moment.
                Whatever you want can be ordered from the net, perhaps you have to wait on delivery, but what's your hurry?

                I propose a paradigm shift, take the time to imagine a world not limited to the crumbs that drop from the shareholder's table but a world where you can have whatever you want for the asking.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 8 years, 11 months ago
          Check your premise.
          There's a third option... start your own business.
          Why should anyone pay more for your skill set/experience than the minimum they are worth to that person?

          Do you commonly look for the most expensive products in the grocery store, even if they are of lower quality than cheaper products?
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          • -1
            Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
            Starting your own business only changes you from exploited employee to exploiting boss.
            If you make guitars and you neighbor can't make one and you deny him a guitar until he makes you supper then you have exploited that labor from him.
            However, if you gift him a guitar shouldn't he feel indebted and reciprocate with what you want?
            The change is from required to voluntary.
            A good person doesn't expect something for nothing and acts accordingly, whereas an evil person demands payment up front because he expects the evil in his heart to be universally in all hearts.
            Just as the thief's perception is that everybody steals, when clearly they don't.

            Why should anyone pay more for your skill set/experience than the minimum they are worth to that person?
            Why should we have to value our lives in a currency that ensures that wall street banksters never have to clean a toilet?
            Did you miss the realization that prostitution, slavery, human trafficking, and drug pushing all come to an end in the absence of the profits motivating them?

            Do you commonly look for the most expensive products in the grocery store, even if they are of lower quality than cheaper products?
            No, I generally go with the lowest price goods despite them being of lower quality because my boss exploits me of 60% of the value that my labor creates.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
      FBA, the man in the society pages link needed to
      get up off his butt and provide value for his food.
      tricks? . if I organize the lackadaisical, it could be
      a value. . if I provide a map to the fruit, it could be
      a value. . value for value is capitalism. -- j
      .
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      • -2
        Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
        I agree, we have to have workers and we are silly to not take advantage of the division of labor.
        However we don't have to concentrate the goods that the labor created in the hands of a few hereditary families.
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        • Posted by gaiagal 8 years, 11 months ago
          What is wrong with a person keeping, and passing on to family members, what they have earned/produced? What another person possesses does not prevent me from amassing wealth. The only person who can prevent me from doing that is....me.
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          • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
            Nothing is wrong with passing wealth to your progeny.
            What is wrong is leveraging your wealth on the backs of the poor by paying a poor person the lowest wage you can to work in your mill while charging the highest price the market will bear and keeping the difference.
            What is wrong with passing wealth in the crapitalist system is that it creates a situation where your progeny exist as parasites on the productive.
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        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
          The vast majority of American millionaires are first generation, making their wealth themselves through their own productive endeavors.

          The concept of a few hereditary families has been overthrown by the vibrancy that capitalism brings.
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          • -1
            Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
            I agree that if one applies themselves they can do quite well under crapitalism, however they will never enter the hollowed halls of the illuminati families.
            Any chance that your kid will join skull and bones?
            Do you seriously think that your daughter can be president?
            The hereditary families will never view you as an equal, they consider themselves a breed apart and see you as cattle on their farm.
            Useless eaters is the quote.
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        • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
          okay, so Who Redistributes The Goods? . since we
          don't have a deity handy, who? -- j
          .
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          • -1
            Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
            No goods are 'redistributed'.
            The currently wealthy keep what they have.
            The workers just pick up any tools left fallow to continue production.
            IE,...
            The shareholders of GM will not be working the factory, so the workers continue to do so.
            The waltons will not be driving all those trucks, so the truck drivers continue to deliver the goods.
            Disney's shareholders will not be using all those broadcast faculties so the workers supplying them labor and programming will continue to do so.
            The bushes can keep their houses in Dubai, provided they can keep their heads.
            In the absence of dollars I would suspect that the servant class would collapse and those that rely on servants to keep up their pyramid will find themselves lacking the human resources to continue at the pinnacle.
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