Anatomy of a Progressive
Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 11 months ago to Politics
So I engaged in a conversation/debate on facebook with a friend of mine from high school. She clearly falls into the progressive/liberal camp but sometimes does not appear to know why. I think that is actually a common problem with people that choose their political beliefs based on their emotions rather than on their reason but that is a different issue altogether.
She posted an article about the solar road that the Dutch built. Which, by the way and also beside the point, I think is a pretty cool piece of technology. However, the conversation began in earnest because she said this:
Her: Renewable energy projects are popping up all over Europe and the world. We need to think long term investment here too.
Me: So start investing.
Somebody else: Wish America would start investing in renewable energy.
Me: So do it.
Her: Of course Mark...you see these countries have government support because these are government, not private projects. Private companies can do it but the will of the government is not there - it runs on the election cycle. The whole convince the voters this is bad because to invest long term means the budget has to include spending. Few politicians want to be the one who pushed to increase a budget especially Republicans.
Me: Do you have solar panels at your house?
Her: We are just stuck until education about the long term benefit convinces everyone this is good. Worth spending now.
Me: Do you have a wind generator?
Her: I would gladly put solar panels on my house. Do you realize many covenants for building developments and local governments are against it? Like they think they are ugly.
Me: Have you lobbied for free choice in electrical power (I don't know if Ohio has that yet). If OH does have it have you switched all your electrical power to renewable sources?
Her: I am not an engineer. I pushed for green building early on when my husband started his home building business. He does include many "green" power saving features like geothermal and the structures of the foundation and the foam insulation, the utilities etc. but many homeowners don't want to pay now save later.
Me: Why do you have to be an engineer to buy your electricity from a "green" power company? If you aren't doing this (and spending the extra $$ per kw-hr it takes) then how can you think that you are right in calling for taking other people's money and investing it in your pet project?
Her: 1 person can do a little. It takes millions of people to be behind the initial investment and the majority of Republicans are anti-environment pro traditional business and big oil, gas and coal burning electric. So it's not possible unless the majority of people change their minds and support it.
Me: Really? first you should check on who gets the funding from big oil, gas and coal. And their associated unions.
Her: You make it seem like a bad idea. Thats the problem. The Republicans make it seem crazy, hippy, doomed to failure, wasteful and "pet projecty" instead of mainstream.
Me: So, the bottom line is that you are not investing in renewable energy (even though you could be with little more than a visit to a website and a little higher electric bill every month) but you want the right to take other peoples money and invest in it whether they want to or not?
Her: Because I don't have billions for ad campaigns that would compete with the current energy ad campaigns saying how awesome oil, gas and coal are.
Me: So you won't invest in renewable energy for yourself because it would cost a little bit more per month. What gives you the right to take other people's money to invest it in your pet cause?
Her: I would invest more if it were going to renewable energy. We don't have that choice now. Not really.
Me: Sure you do. You can buy your electricity from a renewable provider. Ohio is deregulated. Simply go and buy your electricity from a company that is 100% renewable. And pay 15% percent or so more of course for your electricity but hey, it is an investment.
You can also put solar panels on your house or install a wind turbine. Create biomass fuel to heat your house. Or even buy stocks in a renewable energy company (i hear solyndra is cheap).
The truth is you do not actually want to invest. You want to force other people to invest.
Her: crickets
To me, this sums up progressives. A fundamental belief that government exists to solve the problems that they define as problems using other people’s resources in order to feel better about their world.
She posted an article about the solar road that the Dutch built. Which, by the way and also beside the point, I think is a pretty cool piece of technology. However, the conversation began in earnest because she said this:
Her: Renewable energy projects are popping up all over Europe and the world. We need to think long term investment here too.
Me: So start investing.
Somebody else: Wish America would start investing in renewable energy.
Me: So do it.
Her: Of course Mark...you see these countries have government support because these are government, not private projects. Private companies can do it but the will of the government is not there - it runs on the election cycle. The whole convince the voters this is bad because to invest long term means the budget has to include spending. Few politicians want to be the one who pushed to increase a budget especially Republicans.
Me: Do you have solar panels at your house?
Her: We are just stuck until education about the long term benefit convinces everyone this is good. Worth spending now.
Me: Do you have a wind generator?
Her: I would gladly put solar panels on my house. Do you realize many covenants for building developments and local governments are against it? Like they think they are ugly.
Me: Have you lobbied for free choice in electrical power (I don't know if Ohio has that yet). If OH does have it have you switched all your electrical power to renewable sources?
Her: I am not an engineer. I pushed for green building early on when my husband started his home building business. He does include many "green" power saving features like geothermal and the structures of the foundation and the foam insulation, the utilities etc. but many homeowners don't want to pay now save later.
Me: Why do you have to be an engineer to buy your electricity from a "green" power company? If you aren't doing this (and spending the extra $$ per kw-hr it takes) then how can you think that you are right in calling for taking other people's money and investing it in your pet project?
Her: 1 person can do a little. It takes millions of people to be behind the initial investment and the majority of Republicans are anti-environment pro traditional business and big oil, gas and coal burning electric. So it's not possible unless the majority of people change their minds and support it.
Me: Really? first you should check on who gets the funding from big oil, gas and coal. And their associated unions.
Her: You make it seem like a bad idea. Thats the problem. The Republicans make it seem crazy, hippy, doomed to failure, wasteful and "pet projecty" instead of mainstream.
Me: So, the bottom line is that you are not investing in renewable energy (even though you could be with little more than a visit to a website and a little higher electric bill every month) but you want the right to take other peoples money and invest in it whether they want to or not?
Her: Because I don't have billions for ad campaigns that would compete with the current energy ad campaigns saying how awesome oil, gas and coal are.
Me: So you won't invest in renewable energy for yourself because it would cost a little bit more per month. What gives you the right to take other people's money to invest it in your pet cause?
Her: I would invest more if it were going to renewable energy. We don't have that choice now. Not really.
Me: Sure you do. You can buy your electricity from a renewable provider. Ohio is deregulated. Simply go and buy your electricity from a company that is 100% renewable. And pay 15% percent or so more of course for your electricity but hey, it is an investment.
You can also put solar panels on your house or install a wind turbine. Create biomass fuel to heat your house. Or even buy stocks in a renewable energy company (i hear solyndra is cheap).
The truth is you do not actually want to invest. You want to force other people to invest.
Her: crickets
To me, this sums up progressives. A fundamental belief that government exists to solve the problems that they define as problems using other people’s resources in order to feel better about their world.
I am running short of photos of WJ Clinton.
hands permanently in other people's pockets
So I told him if he likes it pay for it, why should people all over the country pay for your train?
The answer of course is the government is supposed to invest in infrastructure.
The goal of a progressive is a life where they never have to reach for their own wallet -- they always reach for someone elses.
Be Socratic about it. :)
1. I do not wish to use my money to accomplish X
2. I do wish to use the government as weapon to gain access to other peoples money in the name of accomplishing X.
3. It makes me feel really good to have this project to accomplish X in my country, which means that I no longer need feel guilty for not doing what I can myself to accomplish X.
4. If forced through reason to face guilt they will retract, withdrawing from the conversation and their guilt for not doing what they know they should based on their own belief.
Guilt that is not governed by reason is the greatest cause of stupidity in the world. Guilt governed by reason changes the individual and by so doing the world.
1) Government exists to solve problems.
2) Government owns everybody's wealth and can do with it as it pleases.
3) I know what is better for everybody and so what "it pleases" should be programs in line with what I think should be done.
P.S. do they have geothermal in Ohio?
In this dialog, the recurring theme in this is she cannot take action because of gov't and/or only the gov't can take action.
“Do you realize many covenants for building developments and local governments are against [solar panels]?”
This is very hard to believe. There are solar panels all over the place in my community, and I see them in other areas.
“If OH does have it have you switched all your electrical power to renewable sources?”
If her power company doesn't do it, she could find a similar program to offset her emissions and support RE by funding solar panels in AZ or wind farms in that Dakotas.
My wife and I have been on it since we got married nine years ago.
“ 1 person can do a little.”
It's like she saying if she can't solve the problems single-handedly, it's not worth trying. She's right politicians aren't doing enough, but maybe they're looking at what they're constituencies are doing and just representing them.
“I would invest more if it were going to renewable energy. We don't have that choice now.”
I can't stand hearing a list of reasons why we *cannot* act. Her husband builds green buildings. They can promote that. They can go to Green Happy Hour, Sierra Club events, and just make sure everyone knows he does energy-efficient building. Those people are often looking for speakers, so they'd love for him or her to do a presentation. If he sends business to PV solar installers consistently, they'll probably refer building projects to him. People may not think of him for years until a church, dental office, warehouse, etc where they're on the leadership team wants to expand, and then it's “who's that builder always touting green building practices?”
If they are Qualified Investors, there are many startups working on commercializing renewables. They can go meet some of the people (usually “kids”) and listen to the pitches, with the idea of just listening until they hear something that seems to have a shot. If they don't like that level of risk, they can move some of their core portfolio to RE mutual funds.
It's way to easy to condemn other people, including politicians, for failing to act. I completely agree that politicians ignore what may be the biggest problem of our time, but that doesn't mean people have to ignore it.