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Environmentalism is a Religion

Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 11 months ago to Philosophy
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End Earth Day now
SOURCE URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv9OSxTy1aU


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    Posted by $ Stormi 8 years, 11 months ago
    As i remind people yearly: Earth Day is Lenin's birthday! Need we know more? The whole environmentalism as a religion is exactly what the UN is counting on. Transition people from Christianity to Gaia worship (the temple to Gaia is in the UN building), then eventually to one world government worship. End of religion, but the world leaders will be the new Gods. That's what it is and always has been for the last couple decades. True environmentalist do not let the forest floor fall into a tinder box which will destroy the forest and animals in it. But environmental worshipers do.None of it is about the environment, it is about power. Look at the brainwashed blank expressions on those children, like the Stepford children.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 11 months ago
      Get note. Did not know about Lenin's birthday. That is a 365:1 odds-against scary statistic. I guess, if you consider it could be a coincidence, Lenin, Marx and Che, it could just be ~100:1. Still scary.
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  • Posted by fosterj717 8 years, 11 months ago
    That is absolutely true! This is what is being pushed in the public schools and has been since the early 70's!

    This also fits Gorbechev's statement that says in essence: "In order to establish a world government, there will need to be established a world religion "Environmentalism/Gaia", a world economic system "European style Market Socialism" and a world form of government "United Nations - Federalism". All three are being put into place to the detriment of freedom.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 11 months ago
    Michael Crichton's State of Fear eloquently debunks the environmentalism myth. What is surprising is that he went into the writing of that book thinking that he was going to prove the case for environmentalism. Then he did his research and found that A = A.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
      Yup. Read the book. It's unfortunate it was his last. After he put out State of Fear (three years AFTER this video), he altered his stance entirely even from this interview, arguing that if we are going to worry about the world, we should concentrate our efforts on something we CAN change like hunger and corruption in third-world nations, which we can do at a fraction of the cost of what the UN estimates were coming in at for global warming.

      I enjoyed Crichton's works immensely - they were always very well researched and contained significant premises to how we view life. May he rest in peace.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 11 months ago
        My three favorite authors, Tom Clancy, Vince Flynn, and Michael Crichton, all have recently deceased. So sad.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
          Not familiar with Vince Flynn (yet), but totally agree with Clancy. There's another one who wrote counter-culture and ended up dead under dubious circumstances. Some speculate that it was backlash from his uber-realistic novels resulting from insider knowledge of the system.
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        • Posted by $ DriveTrain 8 years, 11 months ago
          .
          Jbrenner, if you like Clancy and Flynn, you really - and I mean **really** - need to buy (Objectivist guru) Robert Bidinotto's first two Dylan Hunter novels, "Hunter" and "Bad Deeds."

          The subject of "Bad Deeds" is radical environmentalism, with the villain of the novel being an "Earth First!/Humanity Last!" militant type, who's backed by a cabal of D.C. ... - well, just read the novels. Given the subject of this thread and the context of Objectivism, this should be considered must-reading, and, again, some "homework" to cheer about. I think I should do a separate recommendation post - if not a new thread dedicated to Bidinotto's writing on its own - because these are two phenomenal books, and Mr. B. is reportedly hammering out the third of the series as you read this.

          They should be read in order (so far,) because there are references in "Bad Deeds" to events in "Hunter," and that is a happy assignment, because "Hunter" is a phenomenal debut (no accident that it shot to the top of all of Amazon's "Thriller"- and "Romantic Thriller"-related bestseller lists within weeks of publication.)

          Here are the Amazon reviews by some guy ( :whistles: ) for both of the books:

          Hunter:
          http://www.amazon.com/review/R2NNLQGU1DY...

          Bad Deeds:
          http://www.amazon.com/review/RNQSO403SZT...

          I also highly recommend author Stephen England, whose work in turn Bidinotto recommended to me. England is not an Objectivist, but last weekend I just finished reading the first of his Shadow Warriors series, "Pandora's Grave," and was duly stunned - particularly given that England began writing "Pandora's Grave" at age 19 and finished it two years later. It's the kind if thing that makes you want to pinch yourself and say stupid things like "No way..." Way. 8^] I haven't gotten the time to do a review yet, but trust me when I say that "Pandora's Grave" is better than the best action-thriller movie you've seen in recent years, ten times over. "Cinematic" is the word that springs immediately to mind...
          .
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 11 months ago
            Thanks for the recommendations. I'll add those to my summer reading list. In a few weeks, I'll have a little time for reading, but mostly I need to publish some articles that have been sitting too long on the back burner.

            Nice to meet you, DriveTrain!
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 8 years, 11 months ago
    One of the most renowned scientists/physicists alive today who isn't drinking the koolaid.
    Freeman Dyson does compare the extremist belief to a religion and questions the computer modeling.
    “They are very bad tools at predicting climate…”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiKfWdXX...
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    • Posted by MinorLiberator 8 years, 11 months ago
      I studied Economics in both undergrad and graduate school, mercifully after I'd read most of Rand and under her recommendation a lot of Mises and other free-market economists, before starting college. One of the first things I learned from Mises and the other rational economists is that mathematics has absolutely nothing to do with Economic theory, including especially "predictive" models. And that applies to most sciences outside of the truly physical sciences, and "weather" or "climate" isn't one of them.

      IMO, almost all "computer modeling" is worthless, except for perhaps very narrow market forecasting models and some truly scientific "predictive" polls, e.g., Rasmussen. And those examples are closer to art than science.

      However, I had no choice but to learn a lot of it, and what I did see in the "ClimateGate" scandal was horrible, even if you accept the theory. The whistle-blower was a techie himself, and spotted not just bad programming but some outright false data. A little bit of it made some legitimate press, especially in Britain, but most of what was exposed was eventually forgotten (like say, a Clinton scandal), and the UN and others still trumpet clearly false "models". Big surprise.

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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 11 months ago
    Yes, it is. It involves worship of the earth. Rand discussed it also: it regards man as sub-natural.
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    • Posted by gcarl615 8 years, 11 months ago
      These idiots would have us all freeze in the dark
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      • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 11 months ago
        That's another thing about them: they're hypocrites. They reserve to themselves the privilege of comfortable living, that they would deny to us.
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        • Posted by MinorLiberator 8 years, 11 months ago
          Indeed. Al Gore owns several houses, at least one of which is incredible in square footage. His "carbon footprint" makes the Jolly Green Giant (pun intended) look like a midget (oops, or is "little person" the current PC term?).

          Also, once again easy to find online, but his "Inconvenient Truth" film is full of very convenient lies, over and above a lot of the "scare scenes" in it are animated. His Oscar is about as well deserved as, hmmm, Obama's Nobel Prize...
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          • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 11 months ago
            Today the Washington Examiner shows Barack Obama also made a large "carbon footprint" to make a speech about climate change.

            If he were serious, he would Skype that speech, and tell his listeners/viewers why.
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      • Posted by $ Stormi 8 years, 11 months ago
        They would not have us freeze in the dark, the UN Agenda is doing it now. It is nearly completely in place per Dr. Ileana Johnson Paugh, author of UN Agenda 21, Environmental Piracy. Her home country of Romania she describes as filled with wind turbines, A/C is turned off even in hotels, brownouts are frequent, refrigeration of food impossible, and gas prices out of sight. That is the future they plan for us as well. Oh, not for the Gores and Clintons, Pelosis and Bushes of the world, they are the ruling elite. Don't think animals will survive, the cows let loose too much gas, the UN thinks pets should be outlawed, with no farms, how would the farm animals survive long range. These people can only think past their noses when it involves the accumulation of power. Remember, rand predicted this in "Anthem", where the collectivist society had only "we" who lived in the dark after the incandescent light bulb was locked in a vault by the all knowing rulers.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 11 months ago
    Under the Soviets, the state was the religion. It still is, but because of the disasters of the recent past in which the Russian people lost everything, not just once, but over and over again, the State-As-Religion fell out of favor. Since in reality, nothing has really changed, just a sort of veneer covering the corruption, a new religion was needed. Instead of wealthy commissars, they now have wealthy oligarchs and a government with a leader who rules with and iron fist. The environment has become a distraction that proves that they are good people by saving the earth. In the USA, Obama is using this same distraction in order to turn the populace away from failure after failure and scandal after scandal. giving us peasants something we can believe in, even if it does do things like destroying the coal industry and throwing thousands out of work.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 11 months ago
    Some other elements of religion in Earth worship: human sacrifice. After manufacturing phony evidence of the danger of DDT and getting this highly effective, safe insecticide banned, the result has been over a million deaths annually from malaria. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao are pikers compared to the African genocide inflicted by Rachel Carson.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
      On top of this they openly advocate for the death of at least 5.5 billion people. Hitler only wanted to wipe out the Jews and some others, but he did not want to end life on earth for people. The same can be said about Mao, Lennon, etc. Islam may want to take us back to the pre-technological world like the enviros but they are not looking to wipe out 90% or more of the population of humans on earth.

      Environmentalist are EVIL.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
      Yeah. I tell Greenpeace about this on occasion, when I am not telling them about golden rice...

      Jan
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      • Posted by khalling 8 years, 11 months ago
        thank you
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        • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
          I want to rip into them sometimes...but I think that by being reasonable I actually made an impression on a couple of them (who did not know about golden rice!!!). I have not seen one of those two people since then (she was actually a scientist; Wm and I kinda double teamed her).

          Jan, sometimes longs for berserk
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          • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
            The golden rice thing is amazing. I say be nice until they start making their circular arguments, then rip into them. I think it is important they and other people listening in know that people not only disagree with them, but do not think their agenda is well intentioned.
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  • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 8 years, 11 months ago
    Oh, goody! Let's celebrate the herding of humans into concentrated urban centers so that animals may rule the earth. And the fine for using your electricity after 2:00pm will result in public flogging with a pair of Birkenstocks. So keep your wicks trimmed. Don't want that hot wax to burn your hemp cloth shirt.
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  • Posted by MinorLiberator 8 years, 11 months ago
    Great post. I expected one or more in the Gulch when Earth Day came along, and was not disappointed.

    I first heard, indirectly, of "environmentalism" in 1968, when I was working in a grocery store part-time while attending what was, and still is, one of the furthest Left universities in America. A student came in and asked for "biodegradable" detergent. Both the manager, who happened to be with me, and I looked at him and said: "Huh?" A few months later I became for aware of "the Environment" as a "hot" topic among the more vocal extremist students (I guess you could say my "consciousness was raised").

    Luckily I discovered Rand a short while later, so never drank the Kool-Aid, in fact quite the opposite.

    So I've always seen Environmentalism as a religion, but it was nice to see someone as popular and influential as Crichton address it as such. (Although I thought in the second half he still seemed to acknowledge it a more of a "problem" than it really is.)

    And what makes it a religion IMO (and these thoughts are certainly not original to me) is that it's a large number of true believers following a mass movement which has no scientific basic in reality, and never did. Plus, the crucial religious element of "fear" and dire consequences if we don't follow the advice of our dear leaders (sin, and thee shall burn forever in Hell). And, once again as others have pointed out, a huge call for "self-sacrifice". And finally, any dissent is treated by the faithful as true heresy. I'm glad the clip didn't end with Crichton burned at the stake.

    I won't say much more, as so much has been said, but I've always looked at Environmentalism as the replacement for the Socialist religion, as it's failure in both theory and practice became increasingly hard to deny. Environmentalism is the new "global crisis" that we need to be protected from, and surprise, the UN is there to save us via a New World Order.

    If you look, there are lots of actual real scientists out there debunking AGW, including former believers, even within the UN itself.

    This is one video I like, as it is an actual debate between a "true believer" and a reasonable, well-spoken and informed climate change skeptic. Moderated by John Stossel, who I always find good.

    http://www.climatedepot.com/2014/01/28/w...
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  • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 11 months ago
    Here in Northern New England we get only one crop of hay per field pre year. With 2-3 degrees warming we will get two crops and change the basis of agriculture dramatically for the better. Now if we could only learn to eat rocks.
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  • Posted by Bob44_ 8 years, 11 months ago
    Environmentalism is a mental illness not a religion.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
      The study of the mind is indeed an interesting thing. How much of what we do and think is a result of actual physical deformity (autism, Down's Syndrome, Asberger's, etc.) that prevents us from certain methods of thinking, and how much is self-imposed irrational behavior? What are habits? Nothing more than beliefs we turn into actions that become our natural behavioral patterns. In large part, we _do_ determine our own capacity to think, to reason, and to act and that the more we do something, the harder it is to change those neural pathways. We can choose to literally infect our own minds with pathways formed by habits that become physical deformities.
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  • Posted by Flootus5 8 years, 11 months ago
    I remember the burgeoning environmental movement in the late 60' and early 70's as the fever got whipped up to pass things like the Clean Air - Clean Water Acts, the Endangered Species Act, NEPA, etc - much of it signed into law by a Republican. As usual an initial valid concern got turned into a big government socialist agenda. I remember the Aberjona River flowed through my hometown. I used to fish for kibbies in that river and then started noticing that some had no eyes. Not just one fish, many. The water had oil slicks on the surface with grocery shopping baskets and automobile axles sticking out of the water. Right downtown.

    So, when I went off to college in 1973 to major in Geology - a real science that is based on chemistry, physics, optics - hard traditional sciences - there was this science elective called Environmental Engineering. OK, we'll check it out. Turned out be a primer in Social Engineering instead. I was pretty angry. I didn't realize much at the time but did notice the railing against industrialization and the constant call for "national" initiatives, etc.

    Environmentalist equals socialist in the meaning of today's global agenda politics. Rare is the discussion that a free society of individuals with private property rights, free markets with all the incentive to improve and produce, is the best societal organization for clean water, clean air, and productively "sustainable" land. Let alone "social justice".

    I saw this in the west from the 1980's to the present with the federal efforts to get the ranchers off of the public lands. The 100 + years of settlement patterns of self reliance and production passed down through generations of ranchers was now - according to government environmental (social) "engineers" - destroying the pristine majesty of the magnificent open spaces of the west. Trampling wild flowers, driving off endangered species that have been there all along, befouling natural springs - even raising the dust that impairs the visibility at the Grand Canyon, Capitol Reef, Arches - every aspect of their independent activity has come under attack by reams and reams of bogus studies of "ecosystems" by college spawned bureaucrats replete with federal grants, subsidies and revolving door connections with NGO's, Conservancy Trusts, alphabet agencies and the like.

    I would say the traditional ranchers are the true environmentalists, but I would not insult them in such a fashion. They are the ones that watch the productivity of the land - gee - so that they can keep producing from that land, they are the ones that improved the springs, the flow of groundwater benefiting the stock and all kinds of wildlife. They are the ones that watched for the right time of seasons when cheat grass is still edible, moving the stock to stem it back and preventing late summer wildfires.

    Now, with federal agencies having driven most of the ranchers off of the land or seriously reducing the AUM's, the public lands have become raging conflagrations under their "sustainable" management practices. I have personally known ranchers that when growing up in the 50's and learning how to round up stock, handle horses, irrigate crops, had never even seen a government bureaucrat. Now, they periodically have to go to town, to the BLM offices, to the FS offices, hat in hand, and grovel for their grazing "privileges" on the King's land. I heard one guy saying that getting up on those mornings to pay homage of feeling literally sick and knotted in the stomach and fearful for his livelihood.

    Environmental equals social - in the worst meanings and intentions of those words.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 11 months ago
    Good youtube. Txs

    In 1979, Theodore Sturgeon wrote a forward for "Image of The Beast" by Philip Jose Farmer in which he describes;
    "There is a vast number of honestly simple-minded people who can, without hesitation, define: Pornography, science fiction, God, communism, right, freedom, evil, honorable peace, liberty, obscenity, law and order, love--and think, and act, and legislate, and sometimes burn, jail, and kill on the basis of their definitions. These are the Labelers, and they are without exception the most lethal and destructive force ever faced by any species on this or any other planet, and I shall tell you clearly and simply why." .....
    "The lethal destructiveness inherent in Labelling lies in the fact that the Labeller, without exception, overlooks the most basic of all characteristic of everything in the universe--passage: that is to say, flux and change. If he stops and thinks (which is not his habit) the Labeller must concede that rocks change, and mountains; that the planets change, and the stars, and that they have not stopped because of the purely local and most minor phenomenon that he happens to be placing a Label on in this place at this point in time."
    "Passage is most evident in what we call life than in any other area. It is not enough to say that living things change, one must go further and say that life is change. That which does not change is abhorrent to the most basic laws of the universe; that which does not change is not alive, and in the presence of that which does not change, life cannot exist."
    "This is why the Labeller is lethal. He is the dead hand. His is the command, STOP! He is death's friend, life's enemy. He does not want, he cannot face, things as they really are---moving, flowing, changing; he wants them to stop."

    Sturgeon goes on to explain why the Labeller does these things, but what I've quoted defines for me, quite perfectly, the religion of environmentalism, the environmentalist. He fears change, he wants to feel safe, he feels that if only everything was like yesterday (like yesterday being his image of yesterday) everything would be perfect. He doesn't realize in his simple, non-thinking beliefs that others have moved into the priest positions of his religion with more malevolent purpose, and are using him to further their goals of control and power over all. He sees a perfect, Eden like life of safety and love. He's become pro-death and anti-life.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 11 months ago
    I have a good friend who's wife is an PhD climatologist. He has agreed to provide me clear evidence of causality. I look forward to this critical review. Will pass anything I learn on.
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  • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 8 years, 11 months ago
    And just a little monkey wrench to completely jam the whole "Global Warming" bs, it's SNOWING IN THE TOWN WHERE I LIVE. Right now, this very minute as I write this... Gotta love NW CT in the "spring"!!
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
    At the beginning he defines environmentalism has having leaders, unquestioned beliefs, an original sin / salvation narrative, etc.

    He rejects that and explains his ideas:
    “We're not doing a great job [with the environment]… It's been a disaster what we've done. So, when I look at how we treat the environment, I think we have to be flexible. I think we have try things and see how they turn out. We have to be ready to change course. We have to be able to adapt. We have to say we're wrong, and let's do it right. We have to do research… We need a scientific approach. We need a non-religoius approach. We need a way to look at this and do better than we've done, a lot better. It's essential for you guys and your children.”

    His ideas seem more "environmentalist" than the religious creed strawman he describes at the beginning. It seems like this is question of definition.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
      I love the outdoors and used to consider myself an environmentalist - but that was back in the day when people were talking about wolves and pointless ('fun') killing of animals and sealife and whales and...

      Now I find that most people who are Green don't camp and don't really have a clue about the wilderness. Most of the best ecologists are the hunters, who actually talk about 7 year cycles of predators and game animals. (One such hunter just told me that he was not going turkey hunting this year because he thought that turkeys were are their 7-year-low. He wanted to wait another few years until they were approaching their max population and he could then be a good predator.)

      So, I am an environmentalist (note absence of caps) but am totally opposed to Environmentalism.

      Jan
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    • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 11 months ago
      The difference is between "environmentalist" and "environmentalism." The first is supposed to be a scientist, relying on supportable facts and peer-reviewed research to study the environment and determine how to act in a way that sustains or improves it, while the second has become an ideology that demands an absolutist view of humans as the danger to a healthy planet.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
        Maybe one way to say it is creed-like "environmentalism" sees the environment minus humans as "pure" and human activities despoil it.

        I thought I heard a little of this from my kids. One is in a public school and the other private. They were saying many factually correct things, but they also said to protect the environment they should not use computers as much. That's backwards. We need to protect the environment so we can enjoy our computers and whatever else we want in life. I do *not* think there's an creed-like-environmentalist conspiracy, but I'm going to be vigilant against the creed-like environmentalism in their school.
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        • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 11 months ago
          I didn't used to give much credence to conspiracy theories, but I'm starting to look to see what's behind some activities, and by golly, they sure look like conspiracies. It's kind of like whether or not you're paranoid, thinking someone is out to get you, and then you discover they are.

          Pathological ideologies take on a life of their own, with believers obediently promoting what they're told. Common sense rarely enters the picture, as you discovered in the contradictory message being fed to your kids.

          Looks like we're back to definitions again. What constitutes a "conspiracy?"
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  • Posted by salta 8 years, 11 months ago
    His "anthropological" usage of the word religion is so weak that it does not add much to any discussion. If you listen to his answer in the first half, he could classify almost anything as a religion, including the pro-freedom movement.
    He is a smart guy with words, and it seems like he is aiming to dismiss them by calling them a religion. That has to infuriate anyone with genuine religious beliefs.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
      Actually, his definition made total sense to me and I thought he expressed it rather well. The key points were:

      -----
      Anthropologists define religion as:
      1. It is a collective set of beliefs.
      2. There is a leader or leaders who promote the belief
      3. There are followers who make some kind of contribution or change to their lifestyle based on the belief
      4. Their religious view affects and defines their total view of the world and how right and wrong (morality) get determined
      -----

      To me - that hits the nail on the head of what constitutes a religion - #4 in particular.
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      • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
        I thought his concept of 'original sin' was Incredibly Useful.

        This is the concept I have been looking for to address why we (who may individually have been environmentally conscious) may be considered EVIL by Environmentalists...It is because of Original Sin! Wow.

        This concept also has straightened out my thinking as to why we are all Racist and Sexist. We have had slaves and second-class citizens in our history and because of that we are all tainted by Original Sin. Great. Now I understand.

        And what I understand, I can argue better against.

        Jan, delighted and a bit grim
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        • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
          Funny thing about slavery, it has not been eliminated, it just morphed. You are only not a slave if you own yourself under the law, and there is not one government in the world that recognizes that people own themselves
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      • Posted by salta 8 years, 11 months ago
        Good summary, blarman. But whether you agree or disagree with the watered down definition, my point was because those 4 points can be applied both to AGW deniers and to AGW activists, it does not add much to the debate.
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        • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
          If both sides respond with, "Because it is SO!" then you are correct.

          If one side responds instead with, "...from this data..." then it is not so.

          If both sides respond with, "...from this data..." then it is a discussion, not a religious war, and science triumphs (whichever side 'wins').

          Jan
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          • Posted by salta 8 years, 11 months ago
            I have not heard that distinction before, and it works well conceptually. This subject area is so complex however, that I think on both sides very few people actually understand the science and the math, and so tend to state "because it is so". Both sides also have data to back up their opinions.
            Personally I do not think there will ever be a "win" like that. I think we should concentrate on fighting against the statist policy solutions, not against the science.
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            • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
              I am not a warmist - because I know that historically that Roman Britain (~50 BC to about 500AD) and Norse Greenland (~9th to 12th C AD) were as warm or warmer than now, and the world population was only about 300M then. (Roman vineyards in S Britain!) I am keeping an eye on the icers (though I am not amongst them) because I fear they might actually have evidence on their side. (Yikes!) Watching...

              I am a lukewarmist. I observe that temperature has increased slightly but not per hysterical prediction.

              I totally agree that the correct solution is to get the government out of the picture and take the governors off technology and industry. That is where the good solution to energy lies (and if GW does occur, then it will solve that in passing).

              I am glad you like the distinction I drew. It is frustration that people call names instead of doing science.

              Jan
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              • Posted by salta 8 years, 11 months ago
                "lukewarmist"... love it, I might steal that sometime :)
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                • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
                  I stole it too!!! (from Matt Ridley)

                  I answered in a bit more detail than was probably necessary because I wanted to be sure that I gave you an answer that was "...from this data..." and not just "because it is SO". I am much less attached to any one answer than I am to the concept that the answer be scientifically valid.

                  Jan

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                  • Posted by salta 8 years, 11 months ago
                    By the way, I lived in the UK at one time, not far from a vineyard. UK has a good sized industry, but obviously tiny compared to France. There are plenty of varieties that can grow, though maybe different from the Roman varieties if it was warmer then.
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                    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 11 months ago
                      One of the benefits of even the slight increase in warmth and CO2 we have seen is that it opens new agricultural opportunities. I did a happy dance when I discovered that there were vineyards again in Southern Britain.

                      I have recently discovered (by some online research) that the 'old vines' (which had been mostly exterminated by the Phylloxera blight) still remain in a few vineyards in France...but mostly in Chile. I have a fondness for Chilean wine. I wonder if the vines planted in England were the old variety, since they had not had Phylloxera there.

                      Jan
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    • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
      Salta I listened to that part again and I disagree. First of all he uses the word belief. Neither science nor objectivism are based on beliefs. Then he pointed to the idea that religions give and require a certain lifestyle. Neither science or objectivism push much of a lifestyle other than reason. Then he says it provides a total view of the world, again this does not apply to science of objectivism. Then he lays out the classic tale of religions: Eden, original sin, salvation. This certainly does not apply to science or objectivism.

      It is not the way I would have laid out the argument, but I disagree that anything could fit into his definition.
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      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
        There is a belief component of science, that is that the scientific method can be used to understand the universe completely. Those of us who 'believe' in science believe that there is no point we get to and say 'this lies beyond science'. We will understand everything eventually -- it may just take a really long time!

        Unfortunately most people currently use the phrase 'believe in science' to mean accept unquestioningly a specific theory that is currently popular. If you live long enough, pretty much every scientific theory from your youth get's overturned.

        I'm still waiting for us to find the exceptions to gravity!
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        • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
          No there is not a belief component is science - that is the exact opposite of science. Science is based on a certain philosophy.
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          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
            It's hard for me to think of a philosophy as anything other than a belief system. You can say I doubt therefore I think, and I think, therefore I am, but after that certainty starts to bog down and you have to actually believe something.

            If you assume that what you believe is actual truth then you risk being blind to your own errors.

            I believe that the scientific method can be used to find truth and that it can be used to understand any aspect of the real world. I cannot prove either of those propositions.

            I don't 'believe' in gravity -- I accept observations of its existence as a working hypothesis in the absence of contradictory data.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
              Why are you here? Did you like the movies? Have you read any of Rand's books/
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              • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
                I've read Atlas Shrugged a couple of times, watched the movies, read a number of articles, listened to interviews Rand. I've got a couple of long time objectivist friends. I've generally considered myself a libertarian for 30 years.

                There are interesting people to discuss things with.
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                • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
                  As in the mold of Hayek and Von Mises?
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                  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
                    Truth be told, probably Heinlein. But I liked Road to Surfdom. Interestingly he seems to separate a free market from a social welfare state. He doesn't mind taxation and welfare as long as it doesn't attempt to control the market.

                    Haven't read any Von Mises -- little formal philosophy actually. But my reading list is growing. I was sent off to look into Karl Popper based on your comment yesterday.

                    To sum up what I got from the "Cliff's Notes" (i.e. Wikipedia version). You can prove something false, but not true. As you say, you can still work with knowledge you haven't proven true. Of course that implies the "science is never settled" .
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                    • Posted by khalling 8 years, 11 months ago
                      More formal study of Objectivism might answer some of these questions for you. As I already posted, "The Primacy of Existence" by David Kelley addresses the subjectivism of needing perfect knowledge. It's a long talk but it is very interesting, there's lots of humor and interesting analogies. You can download it to a stick and listen to it in the car while you're in traffic. :)
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                    • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
                      That is Popper nonsense. Of course you can prove something is true. Popper is confusing omniscience with knowledge.
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                      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
                        I guess coming from a math background I have a stronger threshold for the word 'prove'. The person building a house can consider the world flat but that does not mean it has been proven to actually BE flat.

                        In your objection to omniscience, are you contending that you could consider something true and an omniscient entity would know to be false and it would actually BE true, as opposed to you being wrong?

                        I guess you are pushing me in the direction of Popper.
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          • Posted by salta 8 years, 11 months ago
            I respectfully disagree about beliefs and science. Anything we learn (ie. not instinct) is a belief... anything we deem true. Belief in science is based on evidence, and in religion is based on faith.
            Science never has any certainty about anything. All theories have a level of doubt, which is reduced every time testing does not break the theory. As WilliamShipley said, even the theory of gravity has a tiny level of doubt.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
              You are pushing Karl Popper's point of view of science. Popper is wrong. Knowledge is not about "perfect knowledge". To have perfect knowledge you have to omnipotent. A person building a small house is not wrong (does not have knowledge) if he assumes the Earth is flat. He has more than enough knowledge to build his house.
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              • Posted by salta 8 years, 11 months ago
                Exactly, there is no such thing as "perfect knowledge", only reductions of uncertainty. That is the purpose of any measurement in fact (Claude Shannon, 1948), we stop when we have enough accuracy for purpose, as in your house/earth example.
                (We seem to agree on that, yet your comment was phrased like a counterpoint.)
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            • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
              Agreed. We can either seek for a perfect knowledge (total, all-encompassing, zero-ambiguity knowledge) of a thing, or we can content ourselves with "good enough" as dbhalling proposes. Was Niels Bohr's concept of the atom "good enough"? Was Einstein's general theory of relativity "good enough"? If so, what is the point in seeking "grand unified theory" since what we have is "good enough"?

              Inventors are never satisfied with "good enough". Business entrepreneurs know that without continual improvement, their product and service offerings will eventually be surpassed by their rivals. What is the point of technological improvement if we are satisfied with "good enough"?
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              • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
                You are confusing what knowledge is. Knowledge is an understanding of the world in the context of what you are trying to accomplish. If you goal is to understand everything in the Universe you will always fail, but if you want to understand the tides, then Newtonian gravity works almost perfectly.
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                • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
                  You take the viewpoint that it is failure not to understand everything and you place success in your own mind of paramount importance. So you limit your own definitions in order to place your goal of "success" within reach. I understand what you are doing - it has everything to do with goal setting and feeling of accomplishment. That being said, however, your definition of knowledge is self-limiting, and I don't accept it. Knowledge simply IS and it out there for us to obtain.

                  I choose to recognize where my sphere of knowledge begins and ends knowing two critical things: that it is not the summum bonum and that it is highly likely that it ever will be the summum bonum of the matter. And that is OK. What I do not accept, however, is that my current sphere - limited though it may be - is my end goal in the matter. At some point is that sphere "good enough" to get certain tasks accomplished? Absolutely. One doesn't need a master's in fluid dynamics to unclog a toilet. But to design a better toilet?

                  What if one wants to know why all the dinosaurs died? What if one wants to solve Grand Unified Theory? What if one wants to build a terraformer for Mars? For these types of endeavors, the concept of limited knowledge is self-defeating. One MUST be willing to step beyond his or her preconceived notions not only about what they think exists around them, but about their own abilities as well.
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                  • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
                    Do not confuse knowledge with omniscience.
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                    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
                      Omniscience is the state of obtaining all knowledge. Knowledge IS, while omniscience is a characteristic assessment measuring the possession of knowledge by an intellectual being. Ignorance is anything short of omniscience and may be applied per subject or in general and is the range of everywhere from abject ignorance (0% surety) to confident surety (99%).

                      But there are actually two standards at play - not one. The first is the ultimate standard itself: omniscience or 100% surety. The total portion short of 100% is made up of faith (the belief that something is true) but we should also be cognizant of the non-omniscience implicit within these assertions.

                      The second standard is what measure of surety is sufficient for a specific task, which you correctly point out is usually not 100%. We may not need to know whether or not our house will withstand a magnitude 6 earthquake or be infested with termites within 10 years, but if one satisfies himself with less than 100% surety, he inherently accepts the portion of faith that makes up the remainder!

                      In physics and chemistry, we track precision and accuracy (different concepts with regard to measurement) because inherent in every measurement we make is _uncertainty_ - or incomplete knowledge due to limitations of instruments, our own intelligence, etc. We can assert that 2 + 2 = 4 with better than 99% surety because of the sheer number of times it has been asserted successfully, but there will always be a minute portion of that which remains ambiguous because perhaps we haven't yet tried to assert 2 + 2 = 4 within a black hole or some other obscure or trivial circumstance. It is the age-old caveat: "as far as we know".

                      Thus knowledge is not a characteristic of a person at all - surety is. And surety is a measure of the amount of applicable knowledge one has obtained.
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              • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
                Good enough means sufficient for the purpose at hand. We frequently simplify the world. A typical high school physics example might involve the work involved in moving up stairs. You have a horizontal and vertical vector, frequently they just want the vertical calculation.

                But humans move up stairs in an up and down stride which means that you actually go up a lot farther than the height of the stairs. On another level there is the variation in gravity as you move away from the earth. Your weight changes as you inhale and exhale.

                We don't solve problems with the perfect answer, we do good enough for the purpose.
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