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Ayn Rand-Good For You, Bad For Everybody Else

Posted by khalling 9 years ago to Philosophy
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the author is of course ignorant about Objectivism and pure Huffpost anti-producer. I commented. consider commenting. in order to not go crazy, just pick one thing she says and take that on. Let us know on this post if you do so we can like your comment. Battle! we have the world to win
SOURCE URL: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/madelynne-wager/ayn-rand-good-for-you-bad-for-everyone_b_7099338.html?ir=India


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  • Posted by woodlema 8 years, 12 months ago
    I really wanted to address this one.
    _______________________________
    From the article:
    Moreover, Rand also (naively) believed that, in a free society, taxation should be voluntary because the "proper services" of a government -- like the police, armed forces and courts of law -- are obviously needed and citizens should therefore be willing to pay for such services.
    _______________________________

    It is obvious to me that the author of this does not understand the position Ayn Rand took on the voluntary taxation to pay for government.


    She wrote on this topic in the essay “Government Financing in a Free Society”, published in The Virtue of Selfishness:

    Any program of voluntary government financing has to be regarded as a goal for a distant future.

    What the advocates of a fully free society have to know, at present, is only the principle by which that goal can be achieved.

    The principle of voluntary government financing rests on the following premises: that the government is not the owner of the citizens’ income and, therefore, cannot hold a blank check on that income—that the nature of the proper governmental services must be constitutionally defined and delimited, leaving the government no power to enlarge the scope of its services at its own arbitrary discretion. Consequently, the principle of voluntary government financing regards the government as the servant, not the ruler, of the citizens—as an agent who must be paid for his services, not as a benefactor whose services are gratuitous, who dispenses something for nothing. (Ayn Rand)


    Also the form the tax takes is extremely critical.

    For example an Ad Valorem tax is a complete violation of freedom and the principal of private property. A transfer tax on property, is very different even if the amount is identical and here is why.
    Ad Valorem property tax is what you pay to the county on the appraised or estimated value of your property. This is in perpetuity and forever. In essence you are “renting” from the County government the property you pay for. Even when your mortgage is paid for, or you paid cash you are FORCED to continue to make these payments to the government.

    A transfer tax ends after it is paid. If you wrap it into your mortgage like you would additional funds to build a garage, once that mortgage is paid you pay NOTHING ever again on the monies used to pay the transfer tax.
    If I pay cash for my property, once that transfer tax is paid which funds the people and infrastructure to retain these records is paid, never again to I have to pay the government as long as I reside in my property. I can improve my property add buildings, and do not pay more for my success and labor as I expand my property. The government has NO claim on the property at all. That is a voluntary tax paid when I decide to purchase, not a forced tax in perpetuity.
    In states where cars are property taxed the same is true. Go to the car dealer pay 40k for your car, and then do not pay the property tax and see who owns that car. They (Government), like your home will strip it away from by force and sell it to someone else. That is NOT freedom.

    When Government provides a service and charges for it, this is voluntary. You do not want fire protection for you home, do not pay the fire department.

    However in this areas you would find the free market resolve the problem and provide an industry to address such things. Oh Wait!!! Insurance!!!! Which is voluntary.

    When I take out a mortgage the only reason insurance is required is to protect the Bank who has an interest in your property until that mortgage is paid off. Again voluntary. Do not want to pay insurance, then save money, pay cash, and take all the risk yourself.

    Property taxes are forced on us to fund the education of other people’s kids. I do not have kids, yet I am forced to pay property taxes to fund things I never chose to have. No different than me buying a 100’ yacht and then expecting all my neighbors to pay for and maintain it.

    When we are FREE and responsible for ourselves it is good for everyone rich and poor, especially when we have to pay for our own choices and decisions without forcing others to pay out of their heard earned product.

    So these liberals and people who do NOT reason and think have no clue what freedom really is and what it really means. They have been so indoctrinated into a nanny state they are willing to give up all freedoms and become not only slaves to the state but also wards of the state forsaking any individualism they have left.

    The Book 1984 is a good example of this. Disagree and you are sent to room 101.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3U83QLo...


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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 12 months ago
      woodlema -

      Thank you for the rant on property taxes. It is so difficult to get across to most people the fact that such taxes establish that, in effect, you are renting your property from the gov in perpetuity...! One of the balms available in the Gulch is to read stuff such as you just wrote over my morning coffee.

      Jan
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    • Posted by gcarl615 8 years, 12 months ago
      Thank you for this discertation. I would only like to add one point. The government has the power to take your property and taxes at the point of a gun. Try not paying taxes sometime and see how fast the jack boot thugs show up with over powering guns to take your life besides your property.
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    • Posted by Flootus5 8 years, 12 months ago
      Indeed. Great discussion. Which leads me to a budding thought in my mind that has been on the increase because of the discussions here in the gulch. When I really poured through and devoured everything of Ayn Rand that I could get my hands on, I was young and coming out of the liberal Massachusetts education system. Thanks to the latter, I was woefully ignorant of the Constitution and the principles embodied therein. My willing self education of such matters came much later after moving to the west and jumping into politics.

      I have been under the old impression that Ayn Rand didn't weigh in that much on the U.S. Constitution and what would be proper government form. It seemed that to me back then her emphasis was in framing a personal philosophy and a basis of morality for conducting one's life. Government plays a big role in her novels, but also seemed somewhat peripheral to the main theses. This now doesn't make total sense to me and some premise checking I believe is called for.

      I am now thinking of going back and examining this perception with what I now have gained over the years. Looking forward to it. I did re-read Anthem recently and what a refreshing experience!
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 12 months ago
    Huffington Post is a piece of trash. Their articles are so ignorant I dont even read them at all. One could spend weeks refuting all the nonsense in this article, only to have them print up hundreds more just like it. On the one hand, we cant just let our country be ruined by letting this misinformation by so called intellectuals go unchallenged, but I have to tell you its tiring to see so much of it and spend time on challenging it. I would propose at this point, that it appears to be better to just let the collectivist process take its course QUICKLY, and we spend our time on figuring out how to rebuild it properly. In the meantime, hide out in plain sight as in ALONGSIDE NIGHT novel.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 12 months ago
      Mostly agree. Radley Balko's articles on the justice system are worth looking at, but I gave up when HuffPo limited commenting to FaceBook members.

      Fortunately, Balko is starting to publish in other places again.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 12 months ago
        Commenting to Huffington is like talking to a blank wall. They are so far off the mark.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
          yes, but we are in there for all those young libertarians who read and loved AS but haven't yet focused. help them focus. she conflates arguments, distorts premises, and her ultimate goal is to reach those 20 somethings who want to know more about Objectivism but are intimidated. why do you think those articles are up on HP 3x a week. they are engaing in battle. do we put down our sword?
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          • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 12 months ago
            No, we don't. "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." At least one of us needs to rebut, if only to keep our values in their faces. Sometimes the right word at the right time can rescue a mind.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years, 12 months ago
            It feels like we are in a lifeboat with these collectivists who are drilling holes in the bottom of the boat and we are trying to patch them up. I would agree that there are lot of others in the lifeboat who are wondering whether to help bore the holes or to patch them. Its much easier to bore a hole than it is to patch it, however. In AS, the hole-patchers lost out in the end and finally gave up and looked for another lifeboat to jump into !! I am about at that point I think.
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  • Posted by salta 8 years, 12 months ago
    I've heard others make the same mistake she does, thinking objectivists must be "without empathy". The characters in AS show empathy, and laissez faire capitalism requires any business to have a good sense of customers needs.
    I don't understand why people think that, unless its maybe just how Rand's personality came across.
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    • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 12 months ago
      Her personality was ungiving, as it needed to be not to compromise with evil. But I think what they really get hung up on is Rand's concept of selfishness. They can't get over that, when the whole culture is permeated with the notion that selflessness is the virtue, that people should be kind and considerate and helpful and not rapacious.

      The word "selfishness" derails all further understanding. The altruists think of themselves as virtuous; after all, Jesus died for them, and that's to be emulated. It's the stickiest, most powerful meme in the culture.

      That's why Rand went so extremely to the opposite end of the scale. And why the bleeding hearts associate hers with heartlessness, greed, exploitation; and they don't realize they are doing exactly that with their redistributionist schemes!
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      • Posted by salta 8 years, 12 months ago
        I agree, that word is a barrier. Most people reject the book Virtue of Selfishness just from the title. Most people don't even read the first few pages where she explains what she means by that title.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 12 months ago
    The article is alot of nothing. The doesn't understand that we have a managed capitalist system with an immoral government. This is what is rendered in "Atlas Shrugged". It is sad to see this happening.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 12 months ago
    It didn't take more than a couple of sentences to find the first evidence that they hadn't even read the book at all: "our markets are not fair as Rand would suggest."

    Rand never claimed the markets were fair and she cited exactly why they weren't: government interference and cronyism. And it isn't as if she is the only one. Many other economists have noted the very same.

    The next line told me all I needed to know about the article's author: "And our world is not as straightforward as her philosophy assumes."

    Have you ever noticed that when a liberal gets cornered about a specific, central policy failure resulting from their ideology, their response is always a deflection about how complicated, nuanced, or contextual the problem is? The underlying assertion is that there is always something particular about that instance that makes it a unique instance - something out of their control over which they should as a result not have to take responsibility for. And yet all this time all they keep doing is insisting they need MORE power: more things under their control they can later blame someone or something else for when they fail.

    My statement to liberals: you show me you can take responsibility for the little things - good outcome OR bad. You're like a teenager who wants to drive but not pay for the car insurance or gas, and blames the other party when you run a red light and get in an accident. Part of growing up is taking responsibility for one's actions. You want me to treat you like an adult? Act like one.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 12 months ago
      When I tell the Left things like that, they reply that all cronyists are Republicans. How do you argue with someone whose head is that far up where the sun don't shine?
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 12 months ago
    Taking on this author is a daunting task. Not because she is difficult to counter, but because there are so many possible Rand quotes and concepts, that it makes it hard to choose just one or two. I have chosen the concept of causation to counter her, but I've left it up to her to relate it to her article. Otherwise I'd have to wear out my index finger typing a multitudinous replies. "In order to make the choices required to achieve his goals, a man needs the constant, automatized awareness of the principle which the anti-concept 'duty' has all but obliterated in his mind the principle of causality -- specifically, of Aristotelian final causation (which in fact applies only to a conscious being), i:e:,the process by which the end determines the means, i:e:, the process of choosing a goal and taking the actions necessary to achieve it." -- Ayn Rand
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  • Posted by smichael9 8 years, 12 months ago
    Based on Ms. Wagner's original article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/madelynne-...) she must have had a significant change of mind in the intervening months or possible a slew of negative feed back from progressive readers. As CEO of Brightest Young Minds, I would have thought she would have more conviction of her ideals. Alas, we live in a time of minimal moral conviction and an inability for many people to stand firm for what they believe in.

    I suggest Ms. Wagner re-read AS carefully and consider the fundamental truths that are clearly detailed in that document.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years ago
    Do we have the world to win? Is that really a responsibility that comes with being an Objectivist?
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    • Posted by 9 years ago
      very clever, j :)
      It's a goal-not a moral duty [edited to add happy face]
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 12 months ago
        I was being quite serious, khalling. My daughter has been using the word "dystopian" a lot lately, and it certainly applies to Atlas Shrugged. Whether we have to, or even should try to, win the world is a serious debate that I am admittedly struggling with. Certainly Dagny struggled with this. Is the world worth saving? Dagny thought so, but John Galt thought it had to be destroyed so that it could be resurrected properly (with an intentional tweak toward Christians there). Should we be trying to convince people of whether Objectivism is the correct way to live one's life, or should we let people come to that conclusion on their own? Ever since being asked to be a Gulch ambassador, I have to say that I am leaning toward letting people come to their conclusions on their own. Presenting facts and correcting errors are both fine, but going any further seems like unnecessary, and more importantly unwanted, proselytizing. Currently this is the contradiction in my own life I am having to work through.
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        • Posted by iroseland 8 years, 12 months ago
          The dystopia in Atlas Shrugged was not caused by the strikers. They only stopped trying to prevent it and let nature take its course..
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 12 months ago
            For the most part, you are correct. I do, however, note that Ragnar intercepted ships, D'Anconia blew up his own mine, and Galt did multiple things to "accelerate" the end for Taggart Transcontinental. They did more than "let nature take its course". Otherwise, Dagny wouldn't have referred to Galt as the "destroyer".
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            • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 12 months ago
              D'Anconia blew up his mine so that they could not get the wealth derived from his mind. He was leaving it as he found it - like Ellis Wyatt did. They were "letting nature take its course" but also returning the changes they had made to their natural conditions.

              Galt was the destroyer because he was taking away the great minds upon which the economy depended. Not feeding your enemies is not the same thing as attacking and destroying your enemies - although it might ultimately have the same result.

              If we don't win the world then what is the alternative? Just going on our way. Shrugging? And isn't that the ultimate destruction?
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 12 months ago
                I think you have defined very well the dilemma for those in the Gulch. Is shrugging the ultimate destruction? Isn't that why it took Dagny SO long to shrug?
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        • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 12 months ago
          proselytizing? I don't think objectivism ever involves this. I think the question you are asking is whether "this world" can be saved without a major catastrophe? I don't know. Either way it is by building an proper philosophical base that we can end up with a reasonable society someday. Most revolutions end in disaster. If things fall apart today, I think we are more likely to end up in disaster than the phoenix rising
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 12 months ago
            I don't think Objectivism involves proselytyzing either, and that is why I am a little uncomfortable with the idea of being a Gulch ambassador.

            The question really is whether it is possible to achieve a reasonable society via reformation of an existing society or whether it is necessary to start from scratch like America's founders did.

            I don't see any phoenixes rising either. This is why I am more convinced than ever that it is time to start working on Atlantis.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
              the Ambassador program is simply to help those who show up in Atlantis get their bearings, know the ropes. It also is a way to run new ideas past some people. Did Galt every time he had a dinner party in the Gulch invite everyone in the Gulch over ?
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        • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 12 months ago
          I think that there is a real answer to your question, jbrenner, and that answer is "allosaur". Allosaur did not even know about Ayn Rand until he saw one of the movies - and then he went hog-wild and is with us here in the Gulch, happily chomping on passing comments as if they were wayward hadrosaurs.

          I think we do need to put a good face on Rand's philosophy, whenever we get a chance, but we can accept that the return may not be visible for us: Would we have even known about our happy allosaur if he had not also joined the Gulch?

          Not replying to such articles is, I think, falling into the same trap that let us ignore socialists in education...because they were sequestered there and could not possibly do much harm...

          Jan
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 12 months ago
            There are some people who will come to a fuller knowledge if we do act as Gulch ambassadors. I sometimes do that, but it is as much for my own enjoyment as it is for their benefit. If I were to ever see the ambassadorial role as a burden, then I would cease doing it.
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        • Posted by $ Snezzy 8 years, 12 months ago
          JBrenner says, "I am leaning toward letting people come to their conclusions on their own."

          I came to Objectivism about 50 years ago through the influence of a college friend. I pestered him with lame questions concerning the periphery of the philosophy until he finally refused to talk to me any more. "Go read Atlas shrugged," he said. "There is no point in my discussing Rand with you any longer."

          As for an Atlantis, we must seek to be as wise as those who cast aside King George. There were really rather few of them.
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  • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 12 months ago
    I do not do Facebook and thereby cannot create an account. If someone wishes to post the following (which could be a response to several points, please feel free to do so.)

    An example of typical government involvement in about anything.

    The EPA was born and the first task it took on was to clean up the North Eastern Fishing companies. These companies after all were dumping the waste from fish process on a beach. This made the beach ugly and polluted the ocean.

    You see there was a beach where virtually all the fish processing plants in the north east would put the waste from the fish (bones, guts...) and the seagulls would clean up the waste. It had been this way since colonial America before the revolutionary war. The EPA in its wisdom thought this bad, so they banned it.

    The result was that land fill started to occur and the seagulls, no longer able to gain their own food as it had been given to them for over 100 years, started to drop dead in the hundreds and then thousands. The stench of the rotting corpses was linked to the businesses poor practices in waste disposal and the EPA saved the day with clean up crews.

    At this point we have increased tax requirements twice, once to police the businesses so that the waste did not end up on the beach, and again to clean up the mess the change in law created.

    Fast forward a decade where homes built on top of the waste landfill sites sank into sinkholes. Business was blamed and people began to sue the fish processing industry. Did government step up to fix the wrong they created with the policies they laid out? No, business was again made the bad guy. Result Fish processing plants and fishing companies alike began to close and did not renew the now very costly permits that paid for the government created costs to clean something up that had an excellent and natural process of disposing of the waste.

    When few American companies would renew the fishing permits much of our fishing waters were licensed to Canadian companies and the north eastern fishing industry became an hard hit area of the economy.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 12 months ago
    All right, I forced myself to read her whole article. It made me feel as though I had just slogged my way through an uncleaned pig sty. Even the seemingly positive things she said about Rand were just damning with faint praise, a camouflage behind which to slip in the knife. Fortunately, several commenters did debunk her. Such a cesspool of illogic and deliberate obfuscation cannot be allowed to pass unchallenged, at Huff and anywhere else.

    We have our work cut out and for the most self-interested reason: this is not the kind of world we want to live in.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 8 years, 12 months ago
    This is the best post ever! Thank you, KH. The comments written by Gulchers after the article are so great, I've copied them into a file on my computer to peruse later for possible modification for my own use.

    I hope Gulchers will do this kind of thing often for any articles that use Ayn Rand's name to get higher Google rankings. It might just help some people see the light.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 12 months ago
    I just put the following comment there:::

    "'Objectivism assumes that hard work is the primary determinate [sic] of one's success.' . This is not true. . Objectivism posits that the value of a person's contributions determines his or her success. . Contributions arise from skill, inventiveness, creativity, focus, persistence and, yes, hard work. . If hard work were the determinant, a ditch digger would be worth more than a back-hoe operator. . The greatest of the contributors to value is inventiveness. . When I invented a new way to make lubricating oil flow away from machines at a factory where I worked, it became "the mason principle" and I was promoted as a result. . Try that with a shovel and sweat. -- j"

    first, the sic word is determinant.

    second, this is so fundamental a point that the
    author trivialized Rand by claiming it. . but the
    biggest problem with the article is the claim that
    Objectivist principles tend to allow businesspeople
    to gang up against us. . monopolies, collusion,
    the whole gamut of nasty stuff. . I'm working on
    a way to refute that.

    you may have a better way. . Do It! -- j

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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 12 months ago
      "Objectivist principles tend to allow businesspeople
      to gang up against us. . monopolies, collusion,
      the whole gamut of nasty stuff"
      I don't have a great refutation, but my thought is all that nasty stuff crops up under any human system. She acts as if she's comparing it to some ideal system that eliminates those elements.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
    Businesses pay no taxes. They collect for the government and are allowed to deduct the cost of being tax collectors - the rest is passed on to the end product consumer who pays all the taxes.

    In countries with honest book keeping it goes under a heading COG for Cost of Government
    Here we pretend businesses are just plain folks.

    Beyond that flawed premise the article is just another apologist for a world worse than any depicted by Ayn Rand. Left Wing Fascist Socialism. Given the state of todays education I see no reason why this individual should conclude anything else. Philosophy like math is SOOOOOOO HAAAAAARRRRRRDDDDDD
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  • Posted by waytodude 8 years, 12 months ago
    As in Ayn Rand becoming increasingly frustrated with trying to explain her philosophy I too get tired. Those with the intellect will survive while those who don't won't. I quote from Forest Gump " Stupid is as stupid does".
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 8 years, 12 months ago
    Did anyone look up the BYM website and Ms. Wager? It is a non-profit and every few words, the phrase "socially conscious" is used. For someone already drawn to such organizations, it would take quite a while for them to understand the writings of Ayn Rand - if ever. I am sure she is brain dead to such topics as UN Agenda 21, and how it would ban private property ownership, as not sustainable. She seems clueless that the companies with the negative tax liabilities, were huge contributors to the Obama campaigns, and are joined at the hip with him. Crony capitalism, at its finest. Nowhere do I see any mention of the companies being short changed by the poor academic preparation of the future workers, or of the millions donated to failing school programs by corporations, to look good. This gal seems to have no sense of personal responsibility, and does not seem to desire freedom for students. The right to succeed or fail on their own merit and ambition seems lost to her.
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 12 months ago
    The author of the article does not understand that before Ayn Rand was in the USA and before i think Lincoln was president our country was as she thought it should be. Things started changing after Lincoln and when she got here and studied the history of our country she saw the change that took place and wrote about what she was seeing and continued to write about the demise that was taking place. I do not see us ever going back to the way it was so I believe more strongly than ever of the demise.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 12 months ago
    This article reminds me of the argument, "if we don't have drug prohibition, some people would have substance abuse issues." (as if substance abuse were solved under their program!)

    As Ms. Wager says, sometimes managers work out sweetheart deals with their boards. Some people find a way to pay negative taxes.In life's lottery some parents help their kids with time and money, and others are abusive. Some people develop health problems and others stay healthy despite bad habits. I agree with her, but she says that as if gov't has the solution to make those problems go away and make life fair.

    I disagree with her saying Objectivism supports "judging others' situations without empathy". It's saying (based on my limited reading) forced empathy is a horrible thing that destroys the human soul.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 12 months ago
      I have noted that most of the people under 35 seem to think that 'judging' is BAD per se. "What gives you a right to judge that person?" they ask. "Me." I reply, "I give me that right."

      I tend to put my foot down on my prerogative to make a personal judgement on anyone or anything I choose - with or without empathy. (This aversion to judging may be a spinoff of the groupthink that is being trained.)

      So, while I agree that Rands philosophy is incorrectly labeled as being without empathy (as is any rational thought process - look at Mr Spock), I think the real issue is the right to judge.

      Jan
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      • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 12 months ago
        As Rand said, "judge and be prepared to be judged." Judging is what lfie forms do, every second of their existence. Call it evaluating. It is the prime directive of survival.

        Perhaps what some people think judging means is "condemning". That usually happens when two people meet whose premises are at odds, and neither can see the other's viewpoint in order to find the point of "no conflict of interest." Without that, the ideas go to battle, and the people go to battle, with escalating demonization and condemnation of that which threatens the comfort of their own unquestionable ideas.

        So people who see things rationally are accused of lacking not only empathy but also sympathy because they refuse to concur in error. And how do we know there's error? Check those premises, back to the singularity. Rnad has given us the flowchart with flawless logic.

        I have another whole essay on how logic and emotions collide. It can wait.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 12 months ago
        I'm 39, so I just made it. :)

        This reminds me of what Rand says about the world "selfishness". It often is presented as selfish-and-cheating/stealing, so she purposely used the word in the title of Virtue of Selfishness to make a distinction between self interest and using force.

        Similarly, there's judging people and trying to make them follow your judgments, which are completely different.
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        • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 12 months ago
          You are always welcome to be an anomaly! (I have spent most of my life in that category...)

          It is an uphill battle to get a positive connotation on 'selfishness'. I personally find it more productive to undermine the case of being 'non-judgmental'. Since I tend to be personally xenophilic, it is pretty easy for me to deflate a lot of the common assertions that go with being judgmental.

          Jan
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      There is no discernable point I can take from your comment. Instead of re-stating Ms. Wager, consider stating what YOU think. Ms. Wager speaks in what I like to call NGO speak. Most college grads that are working for NGOs have mastered this new language. It's english on its head. .
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      • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 12 months ago
        NGO speak. I like that. I have noticed that middle management revels in PC-speak (which I will now call "NGO speak"). If you talk with the owners/presidents/CEO's of the company you tend to get plainspeak.

        Jan, speakin' plain
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 12 months ago
        I'm saying she points out true facts about life not being fair, implying gov't could make it fair.
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        • Posted by MinorLiberator 8 years, 12 months ago
          Life or The Universe, if you will, can neither be "fair" nor unfair. It simply IS. That people are born with different abilities is just a simple fact, and some will achieve more than others. Some, much more. So what?

          The government can't "fix" that, nor should they. And any rhetoric about "leveling the playing field" or "making incomes more equal" is just that, meaningless political rhetoric.

          And whenever they try, even with good intentions (a rather big assumption), they still only succeed in making people worse off.
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