Really? So now we're shrugging from the gulch? How do we possibly get to that point? Were there threats of violence? Are we forgetting what we're here for? Is sharing and debating, learning and educating of the ideas that brought us here becoming too trivial to bother?
I was just reading a quite heated debate on one of the threads here with DB and some others while I wanted to comment a few times the thread was a few days old and DB and others had handled it very well I did realize that while I came away somewhat irritated that some Gulch members could be that irrational over that subject while quite rational on some others it did help me settle a few things in my own mind and reaffirm my own knowledge.
You guys get into these heated debates and I'm sure it must get very frustrating when your best efforts can't sway the irrational ideas that another is professing but I can guarantee you that someone out here is learning.

I am astonished! I participate is several forums and this is the most tolerant, urbane and civilized I have encountered on the internet.
My favorite forums are sports forms related to my undergraduate university and the passion is outrageous but it is why we love each other. This school has an us against the world attitude and it is the university of a hard scrabble state. Although an amazing number of us are pretty successful and have advanced degrees from this and other schools we can devolve quickly to our more barbaric behavior learned on the school yards of rural America in blue collar towns. After a particularly nasty brawl there are some that pick up their marbles and go home but most end up forgiving, forgetting and returning. Some are put on time out by the moderators and the wait patiently to rejoin the fray.
Sometimes people make emphatic assertions just to stimulate the discussion. Sometimes people touch a nerve in someone inadvertently that they regret. Sometimes without body language or facial expressions, words take on very different meaning. Everyone needs to be less thinned skinned so open discussion can be conducted without everyone feeling that they are walking on eggshells.

I am very glad that I was not involved in all the ruckus. Scott, I know that you see CG as young and misguided, but I respectfully disagree. I think it would be easier to deal with an open and avowed collectivist who was 100%. CG is somewhere in the middle, which is more evil, saying collectivist statements at times and espousing other things at times. Personally I think he is malignant and harmful, even if he does it unwittingly. He is doing a lot of harm here in the Gulch. I value the Gulch and my way of dealing with CG is to completely ignore him. Once after trying so hard, I commented, "OK. I give up."
But I also feel strongly that for good and decent Objectivists to leave is allowing that malignancy to win. I certainly cannot judge what any person's limits are, but I hope that a few of the people I admire most here in the Gulch will find their way clear to stay. You are needed.

Fivedollargold is very appreciative of his Gulch friends, even CG, with whom he seldom agrees.

For my part, I saw the abuse of a respected member, and even though I pointed out, rationally, the reason for the distress it caused many who participate here, the message was lost. Words were turned around. I cannot compromise with my moral code. The root of all this dissonance is still here, mild mannered and leaving destruction behind.

I will truly miss the wonderful rapport I have had with so very many here. I can call you friends, and mean it. Thank you for teaching me so much!! It was an honor.

NonMoochingArtist

I'm afraid I have to disagree strongly with Scott's representation that I am leaving the Gulch because it no longer meets my needs. My leaving has nothing to do with the Gulch. It is based on principles and values that I'm being asked to compromise. I've lived a hard life and the biggest thing that's not only gotten me through it (with some scars, but otherwise whole), but allowed me to do so with dignity, success, and accomplishment has been those Objective principles and values.

Some of AR's quotes are appropriate for this discussion:

1. “It is eminently reasonable that men should seek to associate with those who share their convictions and values. It is impossible to deal or even to communicate with men whose ideas are fundamentally opposed to one’s own (and one should be free not to deal with them).”

2. “In a free society, one does not have to deal with those who are irrational. One is free to avoid them.”

3. “The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.”

4. “When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit.”

5. “I shall choose friends among men, but neither slaves nor masters. And I shall choose only such as please me, and them I shall love and respect, but neither command nor obey. And we shall join our hands when we wish, or walk alone when we so desire.”

I'm not a big quoter of AR. I've lived an Objectivist life since I was a child. I was raised that way, so in discussions about Objectivism, I much prefer to speak from my own reasoning and observations of life. But at times, her statements can so clearly state an issue so much better than I that I will fall back to her brilliance. Such are those above, and in this situation, though all apply, #'s 1 and 2 really speak to me.

As much as this Gulch and its mission, the friends I've made here, and the joy of sharing this Objectivist philosophy means to me, asking me or even suggesting that I set those aside for the good of all, that it would be better for me to 'go along to get along', and that I just ignore insults to those principles, convictions, and values is abhorrent to me and my integrity.

There is a price that we've all had to pay, willingly, in order to live a life of this philosophy. We are few among many, in our world, our nation, our community, and even in our families. We are often misunderstood and almost always misrepresented. We are those that are asked, even expected, to help. Help our families, our communities, our nation, the many-- and we have to say no, unless it's in our personal interest to do so. And we are often despised, hated, and denigrated by those we say no to. But those costs are worth it.

At this point I've had to say no again. It's not having to say that so much, as who I'm having to say it to that is causing me to step away and spend some time resolving this issue in my own mind. I may return, I may not. But either choice will be with my principles, values, and integrity in tact.

I wish each and everyone of you success in your search for truth and thank you for value I've gained before this.

If several of my favorite posters are leaving because you are allowing CG to remain, I am being deprived of learning and enjoyment from their posts. Get rid of CG as he is not contributing anything to my enjoyment of life!

"Their concerns are valid and should be heard - regardless of how they choose to deliver their message."
brilliant.

I myself, am not involved with the detailed structure of being objectivist. I had to stick to high level explanations and decide if it fitted what I felt. After listening to the whole AS novel, I felt that AR understood what was going on a long time ago and I had a great respect for that. My take on discussions is that I cannot be pulled down by people who may or may not be deliberately baiting or manipulating me, I do not have the time or the patience to worry about it. Our situation on this earth is so dire because of the Looter structure taking everything out of it and stifling innovation that one troll or arguer or just cantankerous person is not something I want to try to judge on. If a person seems particularly vicious or vindictive I just down vote and hopefully a couple others will validate that and it will go bye bye. Other than that, maybe someone who voted twice for Obama might actually be so confused that they cannot separate fact from fiction, and so seem to wobble all over the place. Maybe I never got into the discussions that generated the angst over this, but I would ask the Producers to please consider that fighting with one idiot does not a battle make: we have a whole civilization to try to convince is crazy. I do not see us ever changing them as they are to addicted to the Looters payoffs... but hopefully we can find a way to start over after they whole thing tumbles down. And we all know it is doomed to tumble, no Looter civilization can continue if just because entropy will take over and squish it.Thisquote I put at the bottom of everything I can in the hope someone will realize how true it is:

“The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see.” - Ayn Rand

I am reeling. I started a new job a couple of months age and have since been a very rare lurker in the gulch. I don't know what I missed but I am stunned to discover that long time, relevant producers/contributors are leaving or considering leaving this forum, stung and insulted by other members.

Scott the reason you are losing people who have been here a long time is you have refused to listen that CG is a troll. I tried to point this out to numerous people almost a year ago. I think this is a huge mistake.

Scott. When I was a kid, in the summers we would drive up Hwy 99 in the San Joaquin Valley of California to go water skiing. We used to pass livestock trucks. The message on the trucks read: 'Eat more lamb. 100,000 coyotes can't be wrong' I would add that neither can that many Objectivists.

for transparency, I want to make clear that admin can and do vote

Sad :(

I truly love GG but after reading these posts feel intimidated. I feel lf I were rejected here it would sting. I would feel rejected by people who share my world view. I think it might inhibit what I write. Usually I post without editing because I think I change what I feel or want to say when I don't just go with it and I don't have much time either.

Scott, thank you for you administration efforts.

I'm thinking another strategy here is to encourage participants to first state that they will not respond to one who has lost their respect and then do it. Or just ignore such posts, i.e. never engage them.

That's open to like-minded agreement among participants and encouraging such non-response. Problem solved?.

I do that on a variety of discussion groups in many domains including professional ones. And I'm sure some people view me similarly and ignore me. That's the free market at work.

Would the noise level be intolerable to have this as a recommended solution?

OK. I get it. This is a place where there is no room for independent thought. We either tow the line on what we think and get judged by how closely we don't stray from group thought. You have to be a fundamentalist. I read Rand's books in at 19 years old. I have applied her philosophy to my life since then. I did shrug, moving to another country. I appreciate what you do and I love the movies. I wish you luck but this is not a place for me.

I think you do everyone a disservice by calling "all others" zombies. How can you attract the potential newbies if you insult them first?. They may actually read what you wrote.

Exchanging ideas and having conversations is one thing. When I read AS and talked about the book I experienced group think trying to pull me back into the existing current and religious thought. You cannot tell people what to think. If they allow you to do that they are emotionally needy and looking for group validation. Learning is a process people have to go through. You can't skip the process. I feel, not think, people are basically seeking answers to philosophical questions to have more meaning in their lives. I was lucky to have been born extremely disadvantaged but with very hardworking and independent parents. They believe the same thing you believe but it was their culture and they didn't read it in a book. I married into a very educated family so I also learned from that. Then there was starting a business with loans and great success. Later court, another lesson. To get back to now, this country is in a free fall and iwe are unable to discuss things in a way that will bring more people to our philosophical point of view. The failure is because we are developing a business model and applying it to every aspect of life. I don't disagree with this logic but you have to have a rational argument that this is better. The guy who has lost his home because of government forcing banks to make bad loans backed up by Fanny and Freddie doesn't care about philosophy unless he can see how it will make life better for him. He's been screwed and probably doesn't have clue how it happened. Those are the people who need to be reached. They won't sound pretty or educated posting. It will take a while for them to hear you. As we refine our views we go back and forth for a while. But to have conversations with only those who already think as we do will change nothing. The world is in a bad place and while we have answers if we cannot relate to people our cause is lost. I really don't FEEL the wheels in motion can be reversed. We have lost our freedom to Corporate and Government bad guys. If there is any hope people outside our philosophy have to be influenced to join us. The 20 something's are another problem. They are looking at the world in a different way. They have been deeply influence by government schools and progressive thought. These are just the problems I see. I would find a way to reach more people. You might find yourselves a very small group in a Country with very little freedom.
I did not edit do I would've lose meaning. Forgive errors.

By the way, I do know there's a lot more going on here than CG. My rule of thumb is that If I can't engage someone in a civil manner, then I just don't engage.
I was taught don't ever get in the mud and fight with a pig; all that happens is you get dirty and the pig has a good time!
In the few videos I ever saw of Rand, she was firm, but always polite.
Edit: clarity

Reading many of the comments, it seems to me the issue, the REAL issue is that many, many posts divert from Objectivism to anything but...and this is what is really causing some contention.

Perhaps the format of this particular Gulch needs radically modified from pretty much open forum to a strictly moderated question and answer.

Where each thread is ended when the Admins close off a thread. There are many successful forums and if the intent is to be myopically focused ONLY on how Ayn Rand's explanation of Objectivism is to be considered perhaps this would be the answer.

Following the interviews I have watched with Ayn Rand, she was not shy about discussing her point of view on any topics at all.

I am not a Jerry Springer viewer or a 'rubbernecker' but I have to admit that I am really curious about what happened...

My first exposure to Aynn Rand was at a social gathering at a small condo in Tiburon Ca. around 1970. I had been asked to tag along with a friend of mine who thought I would be interested. And I was interested, but it seems they weren’t that interested in me. They were having a party later and I was not invited, according to my friend the host felt I was not the “right type” Referring to my self-educated status and not inclusive of business acumen. To me those attending this Aynn Rand social event appeared more interested in how their conversation sounded than what it communicated. For my part I wasn’t interested in talking about the philosophy of living large, I was busy doing it. Nonetheless through the BS filtered enough about Aynn Rand to pique my interest. So I went to the source, read her books, checked up on her ideas, and fell dead in love with her.

Just recently I was reminded of that 1970’s historical party. I went to my attorney / business partner with a well thought out legal position. Part way through my theoretical justifications I observed him in pantomime masturbation or elsewise stated… He was doing the crazy hand jive motion with his hand. He then told me, “George, it is important in life not to believe your own lies.” And ‘that’ reminded me of my first and last Aynn Rand social gathering.

In our attempt to explain to the people who don't get what has happened maybe pointing people to Anonymous Documentary 2014-2015. Sometimes, just like with the AS movies, a visual explanation helps.

I am not new to the philosophy at all. I am 30 years living it. I may not be a fit. I am not being rude because I respect you. I may have a different view of it's application. I appreciate your words.