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25 Years Ago: The Objectivist Reformation

Posted by WDonway 9 years, 2 months ago to Philosophy
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How David Kelley won me to "Open Objectivism" 25 years ago

My own happiness and values, the work I did and the people I loved, gave meaning to my life. But if you should ask whether or not I had any significance in the world, in its destiny, I would say that I had the intellectual honesty, at age 17, to see the greatness of "Atlas Shrugged"--and that 25 years ago, in New York City, I attended a meeting called by my friend, David Kelley, to announce his dramatic public break from an Objectivism taken by Leonard Peikoff down a road toward closed, doctrinaire conformity, retreat from debate and challenge, and tests of loyalty. I already had agreed to serve as a trustee of the new "Institute of Objectivist Studies," and I did so for some 20 years, but that evening in a hotel on Lexington Avenue, the audience excited and inspired in a way I rarely have seen, I heard not a rousing campaign speech for a new "party," but what surely was one of the most rigorously philosophical, uncompromisingly intellectual presentations of fundamental issues that ever blessed a movement's "schism."

To listen to David's speech again, after 25 years, brings a smile. What speaker, for what new "party" or movement, ever won cheer after cheer from his audience with discussion of Intrinsicism and Subjectivism versus Objectivism in epistemology? What speaker ever quietly told his restive, excited listeners, in a Manhattan hotel meeting room: What we are meeting about, tonight, is a disagreement about the nature of objectivity?

Forgive me for injecting this : It was glorious from the start! The audience that packed the room was made up of refugees, exiles, from the the philosophy and movement that they had risked so much, faced so much ostracism to support--refugees who had been told that they had failed the loyalty test. And to them, David Kelley said: I, too, was tempted to walk away and leave Objectivism to its terminal dogmatic slumbers--but the ideas are too important to me, and to the world, and I cared for too many people who had invested too much in the vision of Ayn Rand.

As I listen, again, to his almost hour-long exposition of the conflict defined by Leonard Peikoff's "ex-communication" of him, and David's systematic response, I realize--as perhaps I did not realize, then, in the excitement of the occasion--that that evening David defined "open Objectivism" in terms and exacting standards are those of today's Atlas Society. To do so, he ranged over the history of philosophy and its great movements--Platonism and Aristotelianism--that shaped the evolution of 2000 years of Western civilization. He defined what made a philosophy specific and complete, so that we understood that if Objectivism was to become more than the "ideas of Ayn Rand," become one of the few philosophical movements that have carried their thrust and impact through centuries of restatement--Objectivism must become not "the ideas of Ayn Rand" but certain essentials that define what makes Objectivism original, what it contributes that is new to the world of ideas--a philosophy that joins the main currents of thought, identifiable in many guises, for centuries to come.

David's exposition of those innovative essentials amounted to an intellectual tribute to Ayn Rand, highlighting her originality and importance, and, in doing so, what interrelated system of ideas defines "who is an Objectivist"--but leaves a world of interpretations and applications to be tested and accepted or rejected by Objectivist thinkers.

Looming over the audience that evening was the sense that we were meeting, now, without so many who once were our friends and colleagues, and perhaps never again would be, and the question: What could have so separated us from them, who seemed to share every idea?

What had infected Objectivism for so long, David said, what had tainted the fellowship of wonder and delight at Ayn Rand's ideas--the discovery all of us cherished as the most important moment of our lives--was a kind "tribalism." That, of course, is another of Ayn Rand's brilliant explanatory concepts. Most of us felt that Objectivism defined our direction in life, what was true, but for some Ayn Rand herself had become their standard and ideal. To them, she came to represent what we must believe.

I admit that I smiled at this, too. I had felt it. I received the very first issue of the "Objectivist Newsletter," and every issue thereafter, through the "Objectivist" and the "Ayn Rand Letter." But the most surprising part of following Ayn Rand's ideas, month by month, was that she endlessly surprised us. We thought that we understood her ideas, her principles and her system, and that, now, it was clear how we must judge issues that arose. Except that, again and again, she surprised us. On accepting federal college scholarships (sure, it's your money or the money of your parents), on competing governments (what happens when you and I fight and your government comes to save you and mine comes to save mine?), and a woman as president of the United States. Every issue had some surprise for those who knew her philosophy but had forgotten that above all we must look at reality.

David Kelley's "campaign" for his new "party" was a philosophical exposition, logical step by step, giving fair recognition to attacks on him, answering them. It was an evening when we became exponents of a philosophy of reason. The price we paid was to relinquish the sense of superiority and security we had cherished as paid-up Objectivists. We no longer belonged to the tribe. For some, as W.H. Auden wrote--no, let me say, only, for myself--"We wandered lost upon the mountains of our choice. Freedom was so wild."

But, by the end of that historical evening, that had changed, for me. I knew with far greater exactitude what I believed, what was "Objectivism," and why it represented a great philosophical revolution. And I knew that in years to come I would be discovering, identifying and defining, what Objectivism implied in every area that concerned me.

I could accept, I think, that I was an "open Objectivist," but that is not the way I put it, not in my own mind. For so long, I had learned my Objectivism with others, some who became officers and directors of the Ayn Rand Institute, and that I never have seen again, and they had challenged me, again and again, if I knew "what Ayn Rand said."

Now, although Ayn Rand, her ideas, and her novels were whatever was left, in me, of "worship"--of reverence for truth and the good--I was on my own. Now, it was real: my mind, my responsibility, and my relationship--unmediated--to reality. Did David Kelley "give" that to me that evening in New York City?

No, that would not be true. David did for me, that evening, what John Galt did. Do you remember? In Atlas Shrugged? Someone asked Galt how he had brought them out on strike the great heroes of capitalism? Do you recall how he replied?

"I told them that they were right."
SOURCE URL: http://www.atlassociety.org/founding-atlas-society


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  • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 2 months ago
    I found this interesting. I found AS 45 years ago but was unaware of the "movement". Of course I have read everything I could find written by Rand. I watched a few short videos featuring commentary by Peikoff, and didn't like him at all. I know that's a subjective judgment, but he didn't project the joy and sense of life that Ayn Rand did.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 2 months ago
    I just toured Jefferson's house in VA last week. I was struck by how much thought they actually put into what they were doing. Particularly in the development of the Constitution. Even so, it was imperfect and sowed the seeds for government taking from one and giving to another. There was lots of disagreement and compromise involved in producing the final document. Once done, if you look at the history of the development of the country since then, there was a lot of "not doing what the consititution says"- there was taking the land from other countries by war, the pursuing of the mormons for religious reasons instead of the separation of the church and state as was promised, and the continuation of slavery even by Jefferson and others for a long time. The point is that it takes a LOT of intellectual thought to even set up a country that will last, not to mention sticking to its principles, The imperfections in the formation of our country has finally led to where we are now with a socialist president and imminent bankruptcy.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 2 months ago
      Of course Jefferson had very little input to the Original Constitution since he was not at the convention. I believe he was in France and got updates via Madison.
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      • Posted by term2 9 years, 2 months ago
        He seemed to write a lot about his ideas, including his dislike of slavery (of course he had over 200 slaves for HIS plantation). Interesting how he could justify that one...
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        • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 2 months ago
          I am not condoning owning slaves because I find the idea repulsive, but I suspect his dislike for slavery and owning slaves is very similar to people who despise government programs and yet take full advantage of them. If it is legal and you don't take advantage of it, you're put at a disadvantage. It is an intentional part of the system of dependency and how many people do you know that turn down government subsidies or grant? :)
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          • Posted by term2 9 years, 2 months ago
            You are right about that. BUT, this dude claimed to be one of the founding fathers !!! Probably holds him to a higher standard I would think. I can understand that in that period, sending your slaves out into the world could actually put them in considerable danger, so maybe he was at least somewhat good to them and protected them within his plantation.
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            • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 2 months ago
              True but we would not have gotten a constitution had he and other not compromised on that subject. I was the way of the time. I believe I heard he was good to his slaves. True or false I don't know. Was not there. Again not condoning. :)
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 2 months ago
    The one thing I found wrong with the Objectivist community, was that it almost seemed to have turned into a personality cult based specifically on Rand. I also believe certain emotional preferences informed her judgments.

    Take the matter of "not willing to vote for a woman President." It's because she didn't find it "sexy" to have a woman outranking a man. She considered that a buzzkill. And on that basis--that explicit basis--she rejected the notion of running for President or voting for a woman candidate for that office.

    On the other hand, Jack Nicholson told us, in "A Few Good Men," that "there [was] nothing on this earth sexier than a woman you [have] to salute in the morning." Would Rand have been able to prove him wrong? I doubt it.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
      David Kelley's talk is highly explicit and analytic about the undeniable "cult" aspect of the Objectivist movement at that time--and this, too, ai think. Well worth listening to. There is much original philosophy there, brilliantly presented.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 2 months ago
        Good.

        Personality cults never survive the deaths of their founders.

        But genuine intellectual movements, that move beyond the opinions of their founders, not only survive, but thrive.
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        • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 2 months ago
          I am not sure you are correct, Temlakos. I have read articles about the founding of cults and the stages they go through after the death of their founder. It seemed to me that Randism followed those steps pretty closely (as did Mohammedism).

          Jan
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          • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 2 months ago
            Here's what I was thinking of:

            American Atheists.

            American Atheists began as the family enterprise of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, her husband, and her granddaughter. In point of fact, Mrs. O'Hair was systematically looting the enterprise. She hired a bookkeeper who had the same idea. So one fine day this bookkeeper kidnapped Mrs. O'Hair, her husband, and her granddaughter, and extorted from them several pounds of gold coins. He then murdered the lot of them and stashed the coins--only to have another set of thieves steal them from him. One of life's little ironies, if you appreciate that sort of thing, ha.

            American Atheists not only recovered from that murder, but came back a lot stronger, because they were no longer tied to one person and one person's ideas.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 2 months ago
    Thank you, WDonway. I know that I am not the only one who has been dismayed by a dogmatic approach to Objectivism. I knew vaguely about some of the splinter politics, but I have always been more interested in the ideas than in the social aspects of a philosophy, so I have just mentally registered that they existed - and then pretty much ignored them. I am not inclined to 'go along' with a catechism, so it does not bother me to disagree and then go mine own way.

    Nonetheless, I have had some encounters on other threads of this list that made me wonder to what degree Randism had become a religion. I also wondered what the spread was over dogma amongst the members of this list.

    So I found your essay on the split between Objectivism and open-Objectivism fascinating. It clarified to me where the dogmatic Objectivists are coming from, historically. I agree with Thoritsu that Peikoff performed a great disservice to the ability of rational thinkers to establish a power base by inciting fragmentation. As I have said before, we have to create a 'big umbrella' under which many diverse people are all willing to stand if we want to have a functional effect on politics.

    Jan
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 2 months ago
      I think that part of the reason for this cultism was a fear or almost paranoia that people were going to try to capture Rand's philosophy and pervert it. Of course her enemies or enemies of her philosophy have tried to do just that, which should surprise no-one. When you start an intellectual movement you cannot control it and I think Rand and some of her followers tried to do that. Imagine if Euclid had done this with Euclidean geometry. It would of been a disaster. see the Pythagoreans and irrational numbers https://brilliant.org/discussions/thread....
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      • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 2 months ago
        Neat link. Yes, I think that people cling to 'what is known and safe' and that one of the side effects of this is to try to 'keep pure' a founder's philosophy.

        Speaking more widely, it is difficult to communicate the legitimacy of 'I do not know'. It is the reply you do not want to hear from your doctor...but it may be the most accurate answer to, "What is wrong with me." (Weathermen report the same problem.)

        Reality will just not sit still to be crammed into neat little boxes. We do not like this.

        Jan
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
      " I have had some encounters on other threads of this list that made me wonder to what degree Randism had become a religion. I also wondered what the spread was over dogma amongst the members of this list. " hmmm. interesting on this site. do you remember what post(s) jan?
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 2 months ago
    This rift between peoples that largely agree, troubles me greatly. Clearly Objectivism must be open, communicated and openly debated. Peikoff has done us a disservice. I have to say, I think Ayn herself started down this road with her tirades against Libertarianism. I feed Ayn felt Libertarians were co opting her movement and her control.
    As a result, we have a splintered groups of freedom seekers without power. These groups collectively have one foot in social freedoms of the democrats (sort of) and the other in fiscal freedoms of the republicans (sort of), when most Americans in would agree that freedom in the right answer in any small roomed debate.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 2 months ago
      I think that a big part of this is that Rand and most free market economist really do not agree philosophically. Hayek thinks we need a free market because of the limitations of reason, which makes him a favorite among the religious free market people. Von Mises is amoral about people's economic choices and thinks the market is completely subjective, which is similar to Friedman's position. And the Murray Rothbard group thinks man is evil (original sin) and therefore we cannot trust government, making it again a favorite of the religious crowd. There is no school of economics that is consistent with Rand and she did not develop one. I think that is the source of this conflict.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 2 months ago
        Interesting comparisons. I suppose I'm with Friedman, but I'm far less studied than I suppose I should be for the strength of my convictions. Now you are going to send me off to study.

        We need the "one ring" to find common ground and pull together against the great ignorance, but glibness, of socialism.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 2 months ago
          I am going to develop this exact line of thought a little better for my talk at the Atlas Society. My next non-fiction book, Source of Economic Growth, which I hope will be out in March is going to suggest a school of economics that is consistent with Rand's ideas.
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    • Posted by PURB 9 years, 2 months ago
      When I saw Rand at FHF, she expressed indignation about some group called IFRS, Individuals for a Rational Society. She saw them as "poaching" on an audience she'd created.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
        So did Plato poach on Socrates? Can students of philosophy not improve upon the ideas and work of others? Think about math science inventors! This is how we progress!
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        • Posted by PURB 9 years, 2 months ago
          Thanks khalling for your question and observation.

          I do, however, question the "similarity" of your question to my posting. Plato contributed originality--whatever its worth, whatever you think of it--to Socrates. IFRS handed out pamphlets to a line outside the FHF, Boston, to an audience assembled by Rand. IFRS did not contribute originality to Rand's ideas (within my memory; I was 16) but were in substantive agreement with her.
          IFRS was not Plato to Rand's Socrates.
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          • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
            I am not familiar with the group. I assumed you brought it up in this post as having something to do with the Kelley split. I tried to find something about the group in a google search. also came up blank.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
      I very much agreed with David Kelley that disagreements in philosophical scholarship is handled through position papers, allowing scholars who have spent significant time and talent on treating their subject matter an opportunity to argue their position.
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  • Posted by PURB 9 years, 2 months ago
    I was in the NYC audience when Dr. Kelly announced his formation of the Institute for Objectivist Studies. He was as impressively clear and logical then as he is today.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
    I go pretty far back in Objectivism. As with most of you, upon reading the novels then turning to to the first Branden newsletters, and clarification via her books I became inundated with Rand and enlightened to the point of inevitable hero worship. The splintering by Kelly and others represented something wiggling around in the back of my mind for some time. It's funny, how an unrelated thought leads to a doubt that grows. Attending a Piekoff lecture, his constant smoking bothered me. Didn't he know that was what killed A.R.? It started the thoughts of perhaps the top Objectivists weren't as rational as they should be. I could likely write a book, or at least an article on the trip along that path. But I won't. They say that before death a man's life passes though his mind. Boring, boring!
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
      I'm guessing you have some interesting memories.

      As for rational thought, how do you rationalize AR's extramarital interactions. Certainly she didn't value marriage as an institution that bonded one man and one woman, and as such how could she rectify remaining married and having extra-marital relations?
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
        this is a sticking point with me as well. The government sanctioned institution I can see she might ignore. The personal pledges she made with Frank and he to her we do not know, and those would be the important pledges and not our business
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        • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
          In my area, Lee Shulman, also a shrink, organized the first of what he called the Ayn Rand Society. Shulman and his wife became close friends with Branden and right after Branden moved from NY to California, they soon followed him. Since I knew the Shulmans on a social basis, I got to know Branden on a little closer level. He truly worshipped her, but when she found out he was having an affair while still married to Barbara, she blew her top, not seeming to realize she was doing exactly the same thing.
          "Lord what fools these mortals be." Puck in Midsummers Night Dream.
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          • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
            she claimed much more...but that was the sticking point...maybe betrayal? but she clearly was willing to betray Barbara.and even dangle carrots to appease her, which was not reasonable to Barbara's own talents and initiative
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            • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
              It was always a weird situation to me. Somehow, Rand was so powerful and admired, maybe even worshipped that Barbara was able to cast a blind eye to the affair and continue to love A.R., blaming it all on Branden. Everyone in the "collective" seemed to know what was going on and yet, they were so honored to be an "insider" that it was never mentioned.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
      I'm interested herb :)
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
        That's a good point. The Detroit area Objectivists couldn't believe the break-up between her and Branden had anything to do with sex. Of course it must be some deep, meaningful philosophic difference. And, the opinion was on her side making Branden out to be a villain. He was her equal in every way except in the writing department. When the truth came out it was a blow. It was as if a son was having sex with his mother. Then there was Frank. Living in the shadow of Rand must have been like paddling a canoe in a hurricane.
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  • Posted by WilliamCharlesCross 8 years, 10 months ago
    Coming to this discussion long after it has ceased to generate comments, took me back to my "personal moment" regarding the authority of Ayn Rand as a person vrs the overall validity of her ideas. That was the letter she wrote to her subscribers regarding the split with Branden.

    I can look back and feel a little pride that my initial, gut reaction was: NO WAY was I going to stop reading Branden. He had already presented his extended essay on Psychological Visibility in the monthly co-publication with Rand, and it had impressed me with it's original insights, and it's application of introspection tempered with reason. Rand presented no rational reasons to follow her dictates. To me it sounded like a smear job that Elsworth Toohey might have written.

    Lucky for me. While Branden's first book was a nicely reasoned development of a rational approach to psychology, it was the second major book, The Disowned Self, that was the breakthrough in making the process of psychotherapy "real" in a way that no other book, in my experience, ever has. It helped me when help was really needed, and I've always felt a personal debt to him that equaled my feelings for Rand's overwhelming influence in my thinking. I still have my 48 record set of "Conversations," issued monthly in the early 70s. All of this was before the record finally began to be set straight in his and Barbara's books about their personal life and times involved with Rand the individual, and the real reasons behind the split. By then I was assuredly what Rand often denigrated as a "self-styled Objectivist," who had my own life to figure out.
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  • Posted by wiggys2 9 years, 2 months ago
    OBJECTIVISM has not been reformed. some people like to think that they can improve what exists. Remember A=A. If this fellow david kelley is so well known in the objectivist circles how come i have never heard of him. has he published anything?
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    • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 2 months ago
      Are you for real, wiggy2? Where have you been? What are you doing here? David Kelley's credentials are too long to list here. See http://www.atlassociety.org/david-kelley...

      Yes, A=A, and when truth is twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, they will try to make you believe that B is A, too, and get you to blank out contradictions instead of looking at everything objectively. David rescued Objectivism from becoming a closed system, a dead-end dogma, a personality cult. That's what happened in history to all good ideas that the "heirs" rigidify to their own limited understanding so as to maintain control over their disciples.

      You have a lot to catch up with.
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      • Posted by wiggys2 9 years, 2 months ago
        Interesting credentials but had it not been for Ayn Rand existing in the first place to present the philosophy of objectivism for him to study he would never have developed it himself. now that it existed before he was born and he took the time to study it he eventually came to the conclusion that he could some how improve upon it; just a pipe dream on his part, and possibly yours.
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        • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 2 months ago
          And Ayn Rand's ideas would not have occurred to her without Aristotle and Victor Hugo and all the other earlier minds who influenced her. As she said, throughout history there have been men who took first steps down new roads, armed only with their vision.

          That is how history works, each step, each new vision moving humanity through the evolutionary pipeline, each precious new discovery serving as the stepping stones for those who come after.

          Only history, 100 years hence, will tell whether Ayn Rand's original ideas were better served by the Peikoff orthodoxy or by Kelley's living openness that brought Objectivist truths into the wider culture. Clearly you feel bound to a rigid view, just as religionists cling fanatically and unreasoningly to their concrete-bound holy writ.

          In the final analysis, only Ayn Rand's own words, her writings, will speak for her. They get filtered through the ambient culture, into the context of that culture's mindset and linguistic evolution. Her context must be kept in mind, as circumstances may change while objective reality endures. When Atlas Shrugged was written, there were no cellphones or computers. The movies correctly adjusted for that, without undermining the essential message of the novel.

          Ideas spread from mind to mind, and each mind is possessed of volitional consciousness with which to integrate those ideas that will move mankind forward into a future so far above the present as we today are above the prehistoric hominids.

          Those visions of what mankind can achieve are not pipe dreams; they are the blueprints for what the best within us can reach.
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          • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 2 months ago
            What you are missing is the fact that Ayn Rand concretized those whose ideas preceded her. she recognized their importance and did not take the credit herself for everything she said because she always recognized where the information came from. However, she is gone 25 years now and her ideas have gained a larger foot hold than before she died. also, the Ayn Rand institute has grown substantially over the years because her ideas have been proving to be so valuable. as for Kelley versus Peikoff, I am quite sure that Pweikoff has a substantially larger audience or following than Kelley.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
              Arguably, although Ayn Rand had some original and important ideas, her real significance was educating and exciting a new generation about the power of the Western intellectual tradition: Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, John Locke and the Enlightenment, Thomas Jefferson and the "Founding Fathers," Ludwig von Mises and Austrian economics, Victor Hugo and the great Romanticists, and occasionally a contemporary innovator such as Betty Friedan. What she did above all was take the best and most consistent of each of these, integrate those ideas, supply what was missing (e.g., in the argument for egoism, the argument for rights, the justification of Romanticism by the theory of sense of life) and present them in novels that made those ideas alive and thrillingly important and "relevant" to the young intellectual. It is almost humorous when you consider that in her novels, in order to appeal to the fire of youth, its natural rebelliousness against the establishment, she made big businessmen into REBELS against the establishment! How is that for a Romantic magic trick? The one debt that perhaps she suppressed was to the contemporary Catholic philosophers expanding the thinking of Thomas Aquinas. Isabel Patterson, a brilliant intellectual and Ayn Rand's mentor, was a Catholic intellectual and introduced Ayn Rand to the modern Thomists, from whom she got some of her epistemology, such as the theory of concepts. The only thing in the Thomist system that she left out was the Unmoved Mover, or "God," probably for fear of tainting her philosophy. She did acknowledge Aquinas in general with high praise, saying that she acknowledged a debt to "one and a half philosophers": Aristotle and "half" of Thomas Aquinas. More than half; all she left out was what Aquinas saw as the one ineluctable premise of his epistemology: the unmoved mover. It is worth noting that Objectivism was selective in its borrowings. David Hume is presented as the climax of irrationality (his theory of causality--event to event--versus that of the Thomists (identity causes action); but every one of his arguments against God is accepted and advanced against the Thomists--who supplied much of the Objectivist epistemology. Oh, what a tangled web we weave...
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              • Posted by PURB 9 years, 2 months ago
                Rand "had some original and important ideas"?

                As opposed to her unoriginal and unimportant ideas?

                My advice is to formulate your ideas more accurately--and don't use demonstrative adjectives (like "some") without realizing how your audience might interpret or misinterpret your intended meaning.

                For instance, I have some original recipes which are likely new to you--perhaps 3 or 4. No more than 6, I suspect.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
              No one means that David Kelley "reformed" Objectivism in the sense of its ideas. If, again, you listen to what he said, you will see that he "reformed" a kind of cultism that had grown up around Ayn Rand and that she, certainly, would not have wished and that went against the whole spirit of her philosophy. David Kelley has not suggested any revision of any idea Ayn Rand put forward. He did write a book arguing for an eighth Objectivist virtue, benevolence, which met all the criteria Ayn Rand set for virtues and was implied by the virtues she did identify. The book presenting the case for adding the virtue of benevolence is available; it does not mean, in any sense, altruism or even kindness; it states that an openness to others, and an assumption that they are of value--until proved otherwise--is a fundamental aspect of rationality in dealing with people and a principle of high importance in pursuing ones rational happiness. That is the kind of possible development of Objectivism that he meant. And if that threatens a constant tinkering with Objectivism, then realize it is the only change that David Kelley advocated in 25 years and he thought it momentous enough to warrant an entire book in evidence and justification..
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
                AR reveled in the cultism that she fomented. How else do you explain the original "collective?" And what about her relationship with Nathaniel Branden? She was not above being treated like a cult hero.
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              • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 2 months ago
                thank you for lecturing me on Ayn Rand. She was the single most important philosopher we have seen. Kelley is an also ran.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
                  I agree. So does David Kelley. Never in any possible context did David Kelley suggest that he might be other than a teacher of Objectivism. The only point he made in his talk, which you really must hear, is that Objectivism, like Platonism or Aristotelianism, could be enlarged and applied--and that Objectivism inevitably would be if it became an enduring historic force. Certain specific premises that identify Objectivism as a specific and different philosophy would remain the core called "Objectivism." Meanwhile, of course, any responsible philosopher would insist that there are the ideas of Ayn Rand--hers, immutable, a historic record--and there is "Objectivism" defined as the integrated set of new principles that identify Objectivism as a new and distinct phillosophy.
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            • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
              Well she never mentioned Locke and he clearly influenced her thinking. As to your last statement, Objectivism is not a popularity contest, so what is your point?
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        • Posted by PURB 9 years, 2 months ago
          morning wigs
          Your unswerving admiration for Rand may be admirable. May I ask you a question?

          How "in fact, in reality, on earth" do you KNOW that he (David Kelley) that "had it not been for Ayn Rand existing in the first place to present the philosophy of objectivism for him to study he would never have developed it himself"?

          I don't suggest that Kelley would have figured out Objectivism on his own. But frankly, IDK.

          What on earth do YOU know that I don't -- and how do you KNOW it?

          "Two questions are involved are involved in every conclusion, conviction, decision, choice or claim: What do I know? --and How do I know it?" (Ayn Rand, ITOE, 1967).

          So, how do you know it?
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        • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
          I can only ask: did you listen to the linked talk by Dr. Kelley? (Ph.D.-degree Princeton University, in philosophy.) If so, and you say what you are saying, then it is beyond my poor powers to convince you.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 2 months ago
    Indeed and again indeed. Thanks for the posting and the reminder of who we are - not who we worship.
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 2 months ago
      Worship?
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      • Posted by $ Snezzy 9 years, 2 months ago
        Ever since I can remember, concerning anything about Objectivism, there have been people whose approach to the philosophy was, "Ayn Rand Says..." Well, if I remember correctly, Ayn Rand said that it would be wrong to take her words on faith. In answering the question, "Who is to decide who is right and who is wrong?" she said (or so I remember), "You are!"
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      • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 2 months ago
        Humans are hard-wired to identify and internalize values. The higher a value, the more power it has within the mind and psyche. At the strongest point it becomes worship. Unfortunately, people are impressionable, and their highest reverence can often be captured by unworthy targets, or imaginary ones. Peer pressure, a collective force for adhering to shared beliefs, can reach fanatic proportions. We are seeing its wreckage all over the world.
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