Why Objectivism fails in the United States

Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 2 months ago to Philosophy
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Because there aren't enough sane people left to make it work!

This also explains MUCH about not only our medical system but our government in general! It is also no wonder to me that the top ten on the list are decidedly left-leaning states. Michael Savage may be right when he asserts that "liberalism is a mental disorder."
SOURCE URL: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/1-3-disability-have-mental-disorder-429-dc


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  • 10
    Posted by ProfChuck 9 years, 2 months ago
    If a person does not understand the true meaning of liberty they cannot be relied upon to defend it. The most insidious form of servitude is that where the slave is kept unaware of the weight of his own chains.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
    I do not understand the comparison. However, I get your point. You understand that religion helps to further confuse definitions. which aids the left. Reason. 1st and last. is the alpha and the omega. is the source, the ending be.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
      Yes, and while there are all kinds of psychological motives for embracing all kinds of bad ideas including religion and a lot more, attributing "psychology" as the cause of them is bad philosophy and evades the entire history of western philosophy and its influence on the course of civilization. Taking pot shots at the "insane" is no explanation.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      Not sure what you're getting at. The list itself pointed at decidedly left-leaning, anti-religious states as those most likely to diagnose with "mental disorders". It should also be pointed out that the more "religious" states such as those in the South tended much more towards private charity and personal responsibility as ways to deal with legitimate mental disorders. The liberals in the Northeast were all about getting on the public dole.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 2 months ago
        Don't think you can call Massachusetts anti-religious. There are enough catholics here take over Utah!

        I actually think the tenancy for letting people "coast" comes from the lack of understanding of the discipline required to succeed. This may be a consequence of the "we are all winners" mentality.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
          and a "first world" complacency. Much like the anti-vaccine movement. Young parents today do not remember polio and iron lungs, higher infant mortality rates, much shorter life expectancy etc.
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          • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 2 months ago
            Necessity is the mother of invention (and initiative).
            First World Complacency, the next local minima to be overcome in human development... assuming religion will continue its decline under the light of first world science and absence of cave men scared of lightning and thunder. Of course being afraid of GMO food is roughly equivalent.
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            • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
              I wouldn't be too sure. I was in social media talking to otherwise rational conservatives, when the subject of Ouija Boards came up this way-"you let her daughter bring one of those into your house without permission?! Evil resides in those things" head hitting desk
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              • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 2 months ago
                I hope your example is like the few examples of flat earthers and cannibals.

                My ex-mother-in-law says things like, I have nothing against black people, I just don't want my daughter to marry one. My kids don't even understand what the difference and all the fuss is. Two generations, just about gone, except for Al Sharpton and welfare.
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 9 years, 2 months ago
    The American Psychiatric Association has a 30-40 year history of defining and re-defining mental illness giving slackers an excuse to drop out and live as parasites on the backs of the productive.

    The old USSR used to do the same thing with dissidents except they put them in mental institutions since they couldn't understand they were already living in a workers paradise.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
      The history of this is uglier in the US than you may be aware. At the creation of Shenandoah National Park by Progressives in the 1920s and 30s thousands of "mountain people" were forcibly displaced by the government. Many were moved into psychiatric institutions as supposedly inferior humans.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
        I'm also thinking of 19th century GB. Common practice for husbands/guardians to put into psychiatric hospitals the "disobedient" females in their families. The lure of the disability check I guess trumps the the real risk of possibly losing rights sometime in the future. Currently, if a physician is aware that a person is taking any kind of anti-depressant, he must ask and document whether or not that individual has firearms or he risks a licensing violation.
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
          Even doctors in Massachusetts are up in arms over the government controls prohibiting them from treating patients for pain and the progressively increasing bureaucratic 'reporting' and prescription requirements.
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      • Posted by j_IR1776wg 9 years, 2 months ago
        It is uglier, but I am aware. Andrew Napolitano 's Suicide Pact chapter 5 Turn-of-the-Century America well details the horrors wroth by The Defense Secrets Act of 1911, The Espionage Act of 1917, and The Sedition Act of 1918
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
          You should also read about that era (and the rest from before the Revolution to the early 1950s) in Arthur Ekirch's Decline of American Liberalism. The parts on Progressivism and Pragmatism are especially good.

          But descriptions of the not as well known mass condemnations by the National Park Service and the mass commitment of "mountain people" to asylums are harder to find.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 2 months ago
    Most definitely Michael Savage is right that liberalism is a mental disorder. The primary symptom of that disorder is a denial of reality, followed by a process that AR described as "blanking out". This is followed by a faking of reality.

    Nobody stays here by faking reality in any manner whatever.
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  • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 2 months ago
    When you have a system that allows this nonsense, don't be surprised when people do it. They think they are smarter than us idiots who work for a living.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
      I sometimes wonder who is the bigger fool. Those who game the system and get these benefits, or me for continuing to "play fair" and getting fleeced to have my earnings given to those who cheat the system. I really feel the fool.
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      • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 2 months ago
        Robbie, you are so right, but the reality is that if we refuse , we go to jail. They have the "law" on their side. So what is the answer?
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
          I really wish that I knew. If you cheat, you are unlikely to be caught, let alone go to jail. But if you refuse to participate, you are most likely to be identified, convicted, and sent to jail.
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  • Posted by ekr990011 9 years, 2 months ago
    First of all ironic that objectivism comes up as a misspelled word...

    Anyways the reason it fails is the reason why a lot of things fail. Too complex and too many voices fighting over the myriad of issues addressed in it and it is not reduced to it's lowest common denominator. Meaning that to fully understand objectivism you could not pick it up in a day or less, even though it is inherently moral.

    If those who follow it cannot even agree then how do you expect to convert others?
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
      It's not too complex. The subject matter is complex, which requires thought. If it were all easy it wouldn't have taken so long for Ayn Rand to come along to formulate it. You aren't supposed to be able to pick up important knowledge in a day or less.
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      • Posted by ekr990011 9 years, 2 months ago
        I agree with it being complex and not doable in say one day however if the message sent out to, lets say everyone can't be explained in essentially an elevator talk then it will never grow. Not saying it should be that way just saying that it is however.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 2 months ago
    Even our founding fathers didnt guarantee private property and forbid the government taking from one and giving to another. Over time, people realized they could use government to get what they wanted and have others pay for it. Now there is an entitled class who feels these goodies are due them, and others should pay for them (called the "rich"). The rise of government is predictable in that the only way these people can get goodies is by the force of the guns the government has.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
      The founders didn't use government to redistribute private property. Federal eminent domain was rarely used at all until the end of the 19th century. But the states used it before that, and through at least the 1930s state condemnation power was used to take private land and remove people for National Parks, e.g., Acadia, Smoky Mountains, Blue Ridge and Shenandoah.

      This wasn't a matter of people realizing they could abuse government power, it was due to a major shift in philosophical outlook. Changes in interpretation of the Constitution were rationalizations of that.
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      • Posted by term2 9 years, 2 months ago
        I wasn't thinking so much of eminent domain as taxing some for programs benefitting others which is rampant today. The constitution didn't seem to prohibit that
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 2 months ago
    The numbers are more than I would expect. 10 million people, presumably not including the elderly.

    If those people are disabled from bona fide mental illness, I wish we could catch it before it became debilitating. If they're faking, I wish we could detect it and get them off the program.

    It's sad that those commentators live on left/right ideological sanctimony and indirectly contribute to these problems.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 2 months ago
      10 million people is a gross underestimate, I think. Romney was wrong with his 47% comment; he underestimated by 5 or 6%.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 2 months ago
        "Romney was wrong with his 47% comment; he underestimated by 5 or 6%."
        I always agreed with Romney's comment, give or take a few percent. About half the people don't pay income taxes, so income taxes won't be the biggest issue for them. It's just a fact. I don't understand the controversy.

        I don't think that's related to this article though.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 2 months ago
          Going back to the article, I will argue that a slight majority of the American population are so delusional that it is not possible to obtain an Objectivist society by majority vote.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
    Just where is it that Objectivism has a strong foothold? From what I see, the answer is nowhere. The problem is that we are dealing with a plague. It is the plague of ignorance and irrationality. As a result, only those who are already cured can help to cure the rest of mankind, and there are so few trying to cure compared to almost the entire of humanity that even though Atlas is one of the most popular books ever written, the amount of people changed by it is miniscule compared to everyone else. However, the fact that this blog exists, that the movie was actually produced, gives one hope that persistence will inevitably pay off.
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  • Posted by samrigel 9 years, 2 months ago
    In this dumbed down society Objectivism cannot compete with Santa Claus! For those who do not understand freedom and liberty it is far easier to sit back and follow orders.............as long as the checks keep clearing the bank!!
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 2 months ago
    I would suggest that it is not Objectivism that fails. it is the people who are failing.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      I agree with the intent, but Objectivism can't really succeed without participation. And it is that potential for participation which is being undermined. My title was a tongue-in-cheek attempt at pointing out that until people actually think and take responsibility - two primary pillars of Objectivism - it can not move forward.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 2 months ago
    Objectivism fails in the US because it has never been tried.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
      That is true, but the problem is how to get people to understand it and realize that it's a lot more than politics. Without reason there can be no individualism and rational egoism, and without those there can be no capitalism.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
      Objectivism must fail because it does not account for the fundamental failing of humans. Some will always try to dominate, and most will always acquiesce. Any system that doesn't account for those realities is a pipe-dream, and as flawed as utopianism.
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      • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
        Objectivism does not "fail" for rejecting religious notions of original sin and does not deny that some people try to dominate, let alone advocate "utopianism". You are supposed to know that by now. If you can't stop misrepresenting Ayn Rand's philosophy on behalf of your religion you should take it somewhere else.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 2 months ago
    "In Washington, D.C., according to the report, 42.9 percent of disabled beneficiaries as of December 2013 had been diagnosed with a mental disorder."
    A contagion, that apparently starts and spreads out from the nation's capitol... hmm, that explains much.
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  • Posted by wiggys2 9 years, 2 months ago
    Objectivism has not failed in the United States as evidenced by the number of people who are reading Ayn Rand's books. however, what has failed is to communicate to people when they are young that they need a philosophy by which to live. and if they were educated as to the different philosophies available they would chose OBJECTIVISM.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
    Is it any wonder? Mental illness, except for some rare instances, isn't something that can be "seen." Thus, so long as you can either fool someone or they are a willing accomplice, you can easily get a mental illness diagnosis.
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  • -2
    Posted by helidrvr 9 years, 2 months ago
    Objectivism fails because it is in the end still a collectivist philosophy.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
      Objectivism is not a collectivist philosophy. It's influence is limited by the lack of understanding of what it it, including from large numbers who say they like Atlas Shrugged and spout all kinds of nonsense contradicting it.
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      • -2
        Posted by helidrvr 9 years, 2 months ago
        Does objectivism support minimal or "limited" government?
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        • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 2 months ago
          If you read Atlas shrugged, when Dagny accidentally crashed in the Gulch, she was being shown around. John G. told her there is not really much of a government around, just a courthouse. So I would say very, very, very limited Government. Ironically, the founding Father's also viewed very limited Government as seriously important, hence the 10 specific enumerated powers the Federal Government should be limited to, but which they (All Politicians) have ignored especially since Woodrow Wilson.
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          • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
            The gulch was a private enclave with invited participants only, not a model for society and government. At the end of the novel, the judge was modifying the Constitution to properly limit government as was originally intended.

            Helidrvr's snarling misrepresention of Ayn Rand as a "collectivist" is because he doesn't like that Ayn Rand was not an anarchist. Never mind that you can't have a society based on individualism with protection of the rights of the individual under anarchy, but not everyone is attracted to Atlas Shrugged for valid reasons.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 2 months ago
          "Does objectivism support minimal or "limited" government? "

          My reading of the objectivism in AS and Fountainhead is it's a philosophy consisted with limited gov't, but it doesn't tell you details about gov't. Some readers may form factions, identity groups, or whatever that provide an informal orthodoxy of what objectivists are supposed to think on policy questions, but this is contrary to objectivism. Objectivism, in my reading of the books, is about thinking for yourself, respecting others' right to their own life and what they make of it, being honest with yourself about what you observe, using rational critical thinking to examine the world, and acting based on what *you* believe is right for *you* and never out of pity, guilt, or any emotion or thought associated with managing what *other people* think.
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          • Posted by ewv 9 years, 2 months ago
            It isn't contrary to Ayn Rand's philosophy to try to establish correct principles and laws for public policy in accordance with the basic principles of protecting the rights of the individual under limited government. This is not "factions, identity groups, etc." Someone had better try to establish more detailed principles of proper government and work with others to implement it. Changes in policy for the better don't happen on their own.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
          any contractural agreement between two or more individuals could be classified as "collectivist" which would include a group of anarchos all agreeing to enforce some sort of property right-"I won't steal your stuff if you don't steal mine." which is also, incidentally a form of government the minute you assign adjudication to someone in a dispute.
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          • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 2 months ago
            I think that would depend on the agreement.

            An agreement written or verbal, forged by mutual agreement free consent by and between parties, is not "collectivist" in any way shape or form.

            Of course, if the agreement between parties is to FORCE someone or some other group to do something against their best interest or against their will, or coerce in some way to provide something in support of others. Then you have a collectivist agreement.

            ObamaCare is one such agreement, made 100% by Democrats against the will of the people to force some to pay for something they may not want or need to support others who demand by virtue of tears and guns Health Insurance. Refer to Francisco's speech on money.
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            • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
              my other point is once there is a dispute, there needs to be a remedy. a third party makes that decision usually. that 3rd party? that is a form of govt
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              • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 2 months ago
                Agreed in most cases. I always in my agreements avoid that by using a "mediation" agreement, whereby a mutually agreed upon mediator is selected. In the two cases where a mediator was in process of being chosen, both myself and the other party decided to come to our own agreement and settled the issue using good old fashioned communication.
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                • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
                  that's when it works great. sometimes...there are cases where even though a party agreed, they pull back when the decision is handed down. Often, this can be a party who does not realize that the point of mediation will start with-you will both lose something in this. Then, there is enforcement as the best alternative
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