A spear in the heart

Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 3 months ago to Culture
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I watched American Sniper with my son today. Touching movie. Discussing the movie on the way home my son explained that he doesn't "wave the flag like you do." To make a long drawn out conversation short...

Thank you Mr. Paul, apparently my son is a dupe and I am an animal (my words, not his).


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  • Posted by coaldigger 9 years, 2 months ago
    We (hopefully) teach our sons to think for themselves but expect them at 20 to have reached the same conclusions we have at 45. The only way this should be possible is if they matured at double our rate or if we stopped thinking after 20.

    I have 3 sons. One is 52, one is 47 and one is 41 and they are at different stages. I think the gap between each of us is shrinking but I am still moving the bar.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 2 months ago
    We went to see the movie last night... I found (for the most part) I really liked the movie. Probably one of my favorite scenes was when the shamaal was overtaking the city as they were trying to get off the rooftop. They were really lucky to have found the RRT... in that kind of dust storm, you really can't see 3 feet in front of your face.

    I know it was a "war movie", but the one part that left me wanting more detail was the end, where Kyle abruptly from combat psychosis to a perfectly well adjusted guy. Not sure if Eastwood was trying to trim minutes or what, but documenting his recovery - even if all of 15 minutes of screen time - would have done a service, both to movie continuity and to the viewers to help them understand that process.

    All in all - I give it 4.9 stars. :-)
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 2 months ago
    There is a saying that the young vote with their hearts and the old vote with their brains. That's not quite true. Think of Harry Reid and many other Dem "elders" in office.
    This country killing soldiers by playing cowboys and Indians in Vietnam and the (not quite for my reason) protests against that war gradually transformed me into a lib. Of course my youth got all caught in the counter-culture movement unique to that time. (There's another one (a plain ole' culture movement?) via Internet and Facebook unique to this time).
    I was heart-broken when Robert Kennedy was assassinated. I was itching to vote for his run for president since he was against the war.
    I was drafted, placed in the Marines, listened to all the indoctrination at Parris Island and still remained a lib.
    When our troops abandoned Vietnam to its fate, I was again a civilian. I hated all that useless loss but I was all "I told you so."
    Then Jimmy Carter came along. I voted for him. Just those four years completely turned my thinking around.
    I voted for Ronald Reagan twice for both his terms.
    I hoped just four years of Obama would turn this country around. Maybe I should have taken the 8 years of "Teflon Man" Clinton more into account.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 2 months ago
    Do not despair, AJ.
    I have heard it said that, “If you are not a liberal at twenty I would say you had no heart. If you are not a conservative by 40 I would say you had no brain.” Unattributed, I believe it is a paraphrase...
    It was first said by Francois Guisot, a French monarchist statesman:
    “Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head.”
    (Said in reference to whether France should be a republic or a monarchy.)
    It was later adapted by French Premier Georges Clemenceau:
    “Not to be a socialist at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head.”

    In any case the America the younger generations see is not the one we knew. Still I wonder how much of the rest of the world he has seen and how much history revisionism he has been exposed to? How old was he on 9-11? Has he been exposed to places like Haiti or other really impoverished nations, or the brutality of places under Sharia?

    There may yet be time. Patience and guidance on your part may yet change his perception.

    Though I was never a Liberal in the modern sense of the word, I do remember how much the following quote from Twain struck me as accurate later in life.

    “When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.” Mark Twain
    The exact ages are not critical, but the premise is often true.

    Your son is lucky. You are still around for him, and can expose him to different perspectives.

    Best wishes,
    O.A.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 2 months ago
      It's too bad we have to let those 20 year olds have the vote.
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      • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 2 months ago
        How about a Jeffersonian-Washingtonian Era litmus test revival?.... Property ownership as a measure of 'competence to vote' in the first place?

        I'm just kidding, right?
        Maybe...
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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 2 months ago
          (1) I'm for it, and (2) It would actually still be legal if the qualification applies to voting for both state and federal legislators (though it would trigger a decrease in that state's representation under Section 2 of the 14th Amendment).
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
        In a nation where conscription began at 18, the right to vote at 18 was reasonable. If they were going to be asked to serve, they should have an input on those who were determining what that service would entail.

        Now, with a total voluntary military, that is not the case. Individuals can decide whether to serve at 18 or older, irrespective of their ability to vote. The 26th amendment should be repealed.
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  • Posted by sumitch 9 years, 2 months ago
    I have a son that hates Israel because the "Jews killed Jesus". He thinks they are the cause of all the problems in the Mid East. I asked him if he expected them to just sit there and count the incoming rockets. He also hates insurance companies because they "take money for nothing". I've noticed that he took the money when he wrecked his Porche and almost killed himself and took the money when he, wife and daughter got T boned. I hope he gets a brain between his ears before it becomes really important. I was divorced when he was 18 months old so never had the chance to try and teach him anything.
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    • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 2 months ago
      That last sentence touches me, sumitch. I had my son when I was older and very experienced - ready to teach a son everything a father would want to. But, my son came down with pretty severe autism around a year old. It was very heartbreaking to me.

      From one father to another, I hope you find peace and happiness with your son.
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      • Posted by sumitch 9 years, 2 months ago
        I'm very proud of his accomplishments as a developer with Yahoo and there's no question that he is intelligent. I forgot to mention that his wife is diabetic so getting company insurance is #1 or 2 on his list when being interviewed. I guess it depends on whose horse is being gored.

        We must take the joy we can find.

        I can't imagine the suffering you must have endured. My problems are minor when compared to yours.
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  • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 2 months ago
    I happen to be in agreement with your son and Dr. Paul. You may want to try to objectively listen to your son's reasons for agreeing with Ron Paul, rather than condemning your offspring and myself and many others as "dupes" (or, as was also said on this post, "illiterate" or "naive").

    The following are some of my reasons for thinking Paul's military stance would be preferable. Just as the Democrats should not have a right to pick my pocket for welfare and social programs, the Republicans should not have a right to pick my pocket to go fight boogeymen all over the world. I should have a say in both. In other words, if charity should be voluntarily funded, so should the military. No one should have the right to forcibly take my money from me to support whatever pet cause they think is important, when I disagree. It's philosophically inconsistent and hypocritical to say you know how other people's money should be spent, but the other side doesn't.

    Given the many examples of the government's corruption and waste that are frequent topics of conversation here in the Gulch, would you claim that we can nonetheless trust our government when they say another country is "bad" or a threat, and we should expend our money and blood attacking them? I don't trust that the government's chief motive is to protect the people. Have you heard of Operation Northwoods? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_N... At least a segment of our government wants war badly enough to intentionally attack the very people they are sworn to protect. They're willing to stage false flag attacks and blame a scape goat to justify war.

    Ayn Rand wrote that the police and courts should be voluntarily funded. She and Ron Paul are in agreement about many things philosophically. Hopefully no one here would classify her as a "dupe," "illiterate," and "naive."
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      I've done my own research on islam and have my own experiences with muslims, multiculturalism, and a passivated and dumbed-down society to form my own opinions on this matter. I do not need to study Dr. Paul to see that he is wrong on this issue. In fact, of the 85% of his views I can agree with this is part of the 15% tin-foil hat that stops me from fully supporting him. You see, I don't take my views and positions entirely from anyone, not Paul, not Rand, and not Jesus Christ.

      I apologize if you feel offended by my assessment but its my right to gather information, process it, come to my own conclusions and then call things as I see them without regard for other peoples feelings.
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      • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 2 months ago
        The issue of military funding isn't a matter of feelings for me. It's a matter of facts and morality.

        What Paul and Rand said is that funding -- both for charity and wars -- should be voluntary. This rests on the conviction that the person who earned the money is the best (and the only morally justified) person to decide how it should be spent. I'm sure you'd agree this rule should apply to YOUR money. Yet, unless you're a hypocrite, the rule must apply to others, too.

        You say you disagree with voluntary funding, which means you believe money should be forcibly taken from all to fund the cause you favor: war. You must fear that the justifications offered for war would not be sufficient to convince enough people to fund it and/or volunteer to fight in it, if they were actually given a choice. So instead of viewing your fellow man as an end in himself, you see him as a means to your end. This is the rationale of dictators and mafiosos, and very much anti-freedom..

        Are you going out and robbing people and sending the stolen money in to the government? If not, why not? If taking money by force to fund the military is acceptable, why use the IRS and the government as your middleman? If you have the moral right to steal my money to fund war, you might as well do it directly. In my view, theft is wrong, whether you do it directly or advocate for the government to do it for you.
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
          I did not go into specifics to avoid discussion with the paulites and libertarians. I'm not begin dragged into lengthly discourse only to have my convictions stand as presented. Ordinarily I would relish this discussion...but this post is not about paul, the military, or money.
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          • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
            But AJ, you brought up Paul in framing the discussion. And your son 's response was about the military. What am I missing? The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been an utter failure. Billions spent thousands of our soldiers dead and thousands more maimed. I support fighting for freedom but we won and let the losers choose their own anti -liberty governments. It 's like we didn 't even believe in our own Constitution enough to enforce it as victors. Viet Nam all over again. We have not learned and the US is not safer.

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            • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
              I brought up Paul only in describing my sons mental position related to this country.
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              • Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago
                But your vagueness left me confused. What does Paul have to dowith it? Do you see his isolationism ae anti -american? He has certainly said some off the wall things about US culpability in world terror. It does seem that our supporting some these bad policies should not simply because we 'd be anti -american to do so. But his flag comment seemed to be intended as a dig and it worked. When he is on his own he 'll have the space to appreciate the values of his upbringing. Challenging you on patriotism seems pretty healthy to me.
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                • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
                  I have no issue with my son challenging anything I believe in, its part of asserting his ownership of his life - I get it. I know it was a dig. Even so, I was/am very disappointed.

                  I do not think anything Paul says/does is un-American or anti-American. He's just not always right and on some things his stances are ideologically dangerous. Isolationism is definitely part of it. Also an often overlooked element is the right of a people to trade in the world.
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          • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 2 months ago
            I see. The post was more about your feelings of disappointment, and not the actual politics or morality or wisdom of your son's viewpoint.

            I do have a question about your feelings for your son. Would you really prefer for your son to be just like you? Do you wish he would join the military and go to a foreign land to potentially be wounded or die, or commit suicide when he comes home? We have all grown up with the idea that dying for one's country brings "honor" and "glory" - thanks to our government-funded education, and our culture's books and movies. But that seems cold comfort to the parent who loses a child in the types of war we're fighting today, in my opinion. But perhaps yours is different.
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            • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
              You have zero right to have questions about anything I feel, unless I choose to share.

              Life is a marvelous gift and so is liberty. There are those, like me, who would have taken and oath to lay down their lives to preserve what this country is supposed to be. The oath is still there but the country has changed dramatically within my lifetime. Still, there must be people of this this type to ensure that when the SHTF there people there, people of honor and conviction, to pickup the pieces and/or defend whats left until order is restored.

              Either of my children can CHOOSE to serve in the military, as I have, or not without worrying about my love and support. I've recommend to both that they do not join ( if either did, to choose Navy (as I did) or Air force). Should THEY choose to go in then the consequences of their actions, like it was for me, is solely on them regardless of how I feel about it.

              In this country military service is voluntary. "Cold comfort to a parent..." blah blah blah, its the young man or womans choice. If a child dies before a parent for any reason there is no comfort.

              I am far from the bleeding heart when it comes to individuals choosing their destiny. Honor and country are worth dying for and a hell of lot more relevant than dying of a drug overdose, or DUI death, or dying from crime, or a car accident.....
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              • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 2 months ago
                I attempted to address your statements on logical, moral, and political grounds, but you said your post was about your feelings. I thought you preferred to discuss them.

                I personally would be willing to lay down my life for freedom, or in defense of my loved ones. I would not, however, consider service in our current military to be concerned with those things other than nominally.
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 2 months ago
                "Honor and country are worth dying for.." that's just the thing, you can't make that statement and think it applies to everyone. That's a personal individual decision. You can't say one form of death is better than another for anyone but yourself. Or what is honorable. And I'm not so sure this country is still honorable... look around. The foundation was honorable but it's crumbling fast now Also, I'm not positive the military is wholly voluntary either. Just yesterday my youngest was notified that he's been enrolled in the selective service. Um, what purpose does that serve and who the fuck "selected" it.!? ..it sure wasn't my son. Our military men and will be tested some day And I hope they do the right thing when they are. Do they own themselves or does the military own them? Who will they honor?
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                • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
                  I cannot defend the selective service. Although dormant and unused, its still a listing in the event of war. I disagree with it.

                  As for the rest...if you can see the decay, as I do, then you are knowledgeable enough to understand the myriad of ways to fight what is coming. If you are in this country and you see no hope in restoration or value remaining that could be redeemed then shrug.

                  While this country and its people are dishonorable, there is still a firm foundation to build on if we can scrape the shit off it and wash it down. That fight is honorable and worth dying for.
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
                    I have 2 views: 1) Privileges like the right to vote should have a cost and that should be national service, predominantly the military but there could also be a couple others that could accommodate the true conscientious objectors, and 2) One can always leave the country that asks for their service, preferably that should be at the age when registration for the SS would be effective (perhaps give them that entire year to decide), under the theory that the individual is of majority and can decide if they want to avail themselves of the privileges of that nation then they need to be willing to defend those privileges if called upon, and if not they should not enjoy those privileges and leave.

                    People only value those things that have come at a price, and voting is "too cheap." Freedom has also come at too low a price for most in the US who have it, and they seem to believe that it is free, it is not. It has been "paid for" by the blood of countless generations.
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  • Posted by Snoogoo 9 years, 2 months ago
    Don't lose hope! I was a total lib in my early 20's and teens. I registered Democrat! What changed my mind? I worked and lived in Chicago and briefly worked for CPS. Let him see the results of socialism and the 'Great Society' first hand and live in it and he might change his mind. I saw a lot of little kids with great potential who were indoctrinated to believe they were perpetual victims by their teachers, parents, and pretty much everyone around. Teachers complaining to second graders that they don't make enough money.. parents living off the government, telling their kids they should get a job where they don't make a lot of money so they can qualify for welfare. Kids afraid to play outside because only criminals have guns and gangs have taken over, living lives subsidized by the taxpayer. Kids who get taunted for reading books and doing well in school being accused of "acting white". Reality will change his mind but he will have to face it.
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    • Posted by norman1 9 years, 2 months ago
      this kids reality is not yours. he is from a generation of basically illiterate youth and for that reason i very much doubt that he will change as you say you have. it must be annoying to AJ to see this in his son.
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      • Posted by Snoogoo 9 years, 2 months ago
        When did this hopeless generation start?
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        • Posted by norman1 9 years, 2 months ago
          actually the hopelessness started when dewey entered into the school system at the turn of the 20th century.
          it really picked up steam when my generation became teachers, i graduated high school in 1959. i saw how my sister who became a teacher functioned. she would probably be angry if she read this as i never told her what i thought.
          then of course the government decided that the students weren't doing well so they stepped in further than they already were and as things work with government intervention things got worse. all who think that things in general will get better in the usa are sadly mistaken. education wise we are a 3rd world country or worse. at least in the third world country the youth know how to survive even though they are basically illiterate. here the youth do not know what to do, accept ask for everything. depresses me to write in this subject.
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          • Posted by Snoogoo 9 years, 2 months ago
            Well I'm 29 so perhaps that explains my relentless optimism. Apparently I'm part of Generation "Y" for whatever that means, but I hate to judge what is going to happen based on such wide assumptions. For all I know, the generation after that will be the "Alex P Keaton" generation who rebels against their ultra liberal parents. At least that is my theory.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 2 months ago
              "Well I'm 29 so perhaps that explains my relentless optimism. Apparently I'm part of Generation "Y" for whatever that means, "
              I'm 39, Gen X, and I'm highly optimistic that even now people my age and younger reject ideological dogma.
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            • Posted by norman1 9 years, 2 months ago
              snoogoo if you take the time to read Ayn Rands essays on education in THE NEW LEFT;THE ANTI-INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION )1971) as it talks about education it will be very enlightening for you. Also there are a multitude of works by Miss Rand that if properly understood will allow you to understand why your future is bleak.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 2 months ago
          It's been around for over a hundred years, but really started to take off with the "Great Society" programs of the '60's. They decimated lower income family structure which has been the impetus for nearly all the subsequent decay. And we cannot turn back the tide until those programs have been eliminated.
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        • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 2 months ago
          I see signs of it in people who are in their 20's or so - the "I'm not thinking about government, or politics, or any of that stuff" was the first I began to notice. If you make people take "Civics" and then make it so BORRRRRING that a person couldn't pay attention to it is she tried, you begin to turn a people in a certain way, and it spreads from there.
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  • Posted by paturpin 9 years, 2 months ago
    I read AS when I was 23, over 40 years ago, I became a believer at that time but I still had many years of growing and learning and experiencing life to bring me to where I am today. I guess what I'm saying is there is hope for everyone, its not over till you're over.
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  • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 2 months ago
    AJ, I must confess to not understanding your comment, which is obviously 'out of context' because no detail is provided. What did "Mr. Paul" do to cause this vitriol?
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  • Posted by richkinley 9 years, 2 months ago
    My daughter is 27, my two sons are 25 & 13. The youngest is the most conservative by far. He's seen all three AS movies, and joined me in the "I am John Galt" YouTube clip.

    I still have hope for the older siblings, and I continue to sow the fields with seeds.

    Hang in there!
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 3 months ago
    It is the primary job of sons to spear their fathers in the heart, for several years. He got potty-trained, didn't he? [I assume you wouldn't be taking him to the movies with you if he hadn't!] This, too, shall change.
    Oh, and I'm with LS - I don't understand your last line.
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  • Posted by mdant 9 years, 2 months ago
    I know how you feel...and more. On the good side, there is much truth to all the well wisher comments made so far and I wont go into that anymore as they have done so. However, you could end up in place more like myself and I will make a few comments about that.

    I have had an extremely difficult time with my daughter as she seems to be growing up completely despising me for the very things that would be admired and appreciated by people on this site. I would try and chalk it up to a teenagers rebellion but she seems to have completely embraced her mom's (my ex-wife) way of thinking and view on life. To quickly describe that, my ex wife's mindset is very similar to Hank Rearden's wife and mother in Atlas Shrugged. As a result of all this I still hope that something changes with my daughter but I have had to accept reality that your family is a crap shoot as to how they turn out because you can really only have much influence if they have a mind that is similar to yours in the firs place. The Atlas movie did not go much into Rearden's family situation but the book was very helpful in helping me deal with this. It was fictional but shows reality. There were so many aspects of his relationship with his family that I can not go into them all but they help you understand and deal with the fact your hope and effort with your family can only go so far and in the end you just have to accept things the way they are and move on. But hey, if your lucky your son will go through some issues but end up much like yourself. That happens a lot too.
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  • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
    For the record, I have no expectation that either of my children will hold everything I value as dearly as I do. I fully expect them to do many things I would not do and understand that, out of love, I must accept them.

    I am more than a little disappointed to learn that my son doesn't value this country as much as I do. Like Ron Paul, he is naive in his thinking on this matter AND will end up seeing his idealism decimated by the reality of the coming all-out culture war.

    I do not want to open a pissing match with the Paulites and Libertarians on this site. This is why I kept things vague.

    Even so, I am sorely disappointed, and even hurt to a degree, by my sons perspective.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 2 months ago
      On the very surface, someone saying he doesn't wave the flag is vague. It could mean almost anything.
      I haven't seen the movie, though, and I don't get the Paul reference.
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