Dictatorship and Tyranny are Good

Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 2 months ago to History
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Words change meaning over time. When the founders of our republic called King George a tyrant in the Declaration of Independence, they were relying on a commonly understood reference from ancient Greece that all educated people of their time understood. Tyranny was not bad government. It could be good government. But the tyrant was a pervert. Oedipus was the paradigm. We call the play "Oedipus Rex" but that is Latin. The Greek title was "Oedipous Tyrannos." But he was not alone. Dirty jokes were told about Peisistratos, Tyrant of Athens.

In the Greek Dark Ages 1100 to 700 BCE kings ruled, as they had from time immemorial. Then came a revolution. The Phoenicians brought commerce and writing. And something else came, too. Buddha, Thales, and Confucius lived (born or died) within 100 years of each other.

In Ionia of the Greek world, 13 colonies experienced a multifaceted revolution. Philosophy supplanted religion. Writing replaced speech. Commerce overshadowed farming. Coins were invented. Tyrants were chosen. The citizens of the town gave control of the business affairs of the state to successful men on the rise. Touting Pythagoras, Carl Sagan denounced Polycrates, the Tyrant of Samos as a "caterer." Indeed he was. Polycrates of Samos was a successful businessman who took over management of the town.

Tyranny led to oligarchy. The decision-makers could not find a manager, so they ruled by committee. Oligarchy led to democracy: everyone with standing gets in. It happened as fast as three generations, but no more than three lifetimes, not less than 700 BCE to 550 BCE across the Greek world. Once democracy, coinage, writing, philosophy, and commerce were the norm, tyrants fell into the shadows and tyrannicide was heralded.

The Thirty Tyrants of Athens, was in fact an oligarchy in the wake of the Peloponnesian War that killed rich people and seized their property.

Dictatorship was a constitutional office of the Roman Republic. In times of crisis when the senate (not the only legislative or judicial assembly but the overarching one) was divided, the senate empowered one person of good character to command. The paradigm was Cincinnatus for whom veterans of the American Revolution named their new settlement of Cincinnati, Ohio. Twice Cincinnatus took charge; and twice he returned to his farm.

The dictators of the 1930s, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, Metaxas, Franco, and others, were proclaimed only to be guiding their nations through temporary crises. In the USA nothing in the Constitution prevented Roosevelt's third and fourth terms. Consider that in the UK, Churchill was turned out as soon as the war was won. (Rationing, for instance of chocolate, continued for another ten years.) In theory, at least, a democratic republic can appoint a dictator to guide the ship of state through the shoals of crisis.

Generally, we all hate dictators and tyrants. I assert that that is a prejudice, foisted on those not deeply educated by a public education system in service to democracy.


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  • Posted by ISank 9 years, 2 months ago
    Yes I am prejudice against anyone who a) wants my earned money and b) seeks control over my decisions in life. So yes prejudice and unwilling to live under such.
    Good? Hell No! But then again I'm a product of private schools.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      Nothing in what I presented gave any hint about how the tyrants and dictators were paid. Apparently, Cincinnatus was not paid at all. As for tyrants, some had good schemes; others had bad. As I said, they were self-made men on the rise, successful businessmen who took over the business of the town. When a tyrant went too far, someone killed him. Read the history. Get the facts.

      Unless you had the privilege of a school that was above the law, such as Andover, Choate, or Phillips (or an equal girls' school), or maybe were home-schooled, then actually, most so-called "private" education especially Catholic schools, are still within the public norms. Your teachers went to public universities; your school conformed to state standards.
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  • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 2 months ago
    There is no such thing as a good dictatorship. There may be better dictatorships but never good. People are intended to be free by nature. A dictatorship is nothing less than slavory. Pretty close to what we are living in right now in America.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      I just gave you an example of a good dictatorship: Cincinnatus of Rome. "Their power was originally neither arbitrary nor unaccountable, being subject to law and requiring retrospective justification." - Wikipedia. " Dictators were also appointed to serve administrative or religious functions, such as holding elections (comitiorum habendorum causa, the second most common form of dictatorship) or driving a nail into the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus to end a pestilence (clavi figendi causa)." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dicta...

      Also, you need to define what you mean by "free." Under dictatorships described above, nothing was said about citizens losing rights. The dictator was simply a manager. The appointment of a dictator did not create state-wide slavery of the the citizens. I encourage you to investigate the facts of history.
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      • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 2 months ago
        Share the facts beside wiki. I will contend the people are not intended to be managed either. Free is free. A is A.
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
          So, if you were a Roman citizen and the Gauls were attacking and the Dictator called up a legion, you would just say that it was not your problem?

          "People" are "managed" all the time: find a business that does have a manager. You are free to quit. And, I suppose in Roman times, you were free to run away… but just don't try to come back and pretend you were not there when your neighbors all answered the call.

          Collectivism has its limits, easy limits, close to the individual; but individualism has its limits. If you do not want to be "managed" then you are free to live in the woods. If you want to live among people, then you accept the norms of the society you choose.
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          • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 2 months ago
            "If you live among people, then you accept the norms of the society you choose."

            Exactly right, even if you don't realize what those norms are. It has always been that way.

            If everyone around you is painting themselves blue and you are not painting yourself at all or using a different color, watch out. You will be looked at askance at the best and ostracized or punished at the worst.
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  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 2 months ago
    Mike,

    It does not matter what either dictator or tyrant meant historically now. What matters now is what the sheeple that are spoon fed their history/propaganda think it means now.

    In ancient times dictator or tyrant was not generally an epithet unless they were incompetent at ruling. As you pointed out.

    Unfortunately now, many people only care about who is going to "take care of them" without regard to what their rulers are called or how much power they usurp.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      Selfishness, altruism, and capitalism all had different meanings historically and in the vernacular. Altruism was originally intended by August Comte to mean exactly what Ayn Rand said it did, regardless of the vernacular.

      So, too, might it be necessary and appropriate - a response to objective historical conditions - for an extra-constitutional tyrant (a self-made business leader on the rise) to assume financial control of the state. Tyranny is nothing more or less.

      Similarly, in a time of constitutional crisis, it might prove to be a matter of survival of the people and the state, for one person of good character to take temporary leadership.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      You are speaking of a constitutional republic, whether the USA, the UK, or a European "Rheinland socialism." None of those is a dictatorship. All I suggest here in this discussion is that nothing about a constitutional republic is "written in the stars", i.e., objectively determined. A government can have any form - especially temporarily as defined by law; see above - as long as the rights of the citizens are preserved.
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  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 2 months ago
    Thanks for starting this thread Mike, it touches upon what I consider one of the most interesting periods of history, ancient Rome.

    While Rome did appoint tyrants and dictators from time to time it was never done lightly. It was done in response to a crisis when the normal government was unable to respond adequately. Rome also knew that giving any individual that much power was always a double edged sword.

    You point out Cincinatus as a positive example, and he was.

    However there were negative examples as well, such as the best known roman of all, Julius Caesar.

    In fact his insurrection and the resulting civil war in approx 57bc produced a phrase we still use today.

    Crossing the Rubicon.

    Meaning passing a point of no return, crossing a line you cannot go back from, etc.

    The Rubicon was a river dividing Italy proper, from what was Cisalpine Gaul. Bringing your legions across that river "under arms" meaning in campaign mode rather than garrison mode, was considered an act of insurrection against the state of Rome.

    Julius Caesar did this and seized dictator powers in Rome by force of arms, and in some ways this began the final slide from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire. It took another 3 decades or so, but the die was cast to end the republic as Caesar said when he crossed the Rubicon.

    My point is, that dictators and tyrants came down on both sides of the good/bad divide.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      Right. Good point, T. Mulling this over the past couple of days, I wonder what would have happened with Julius Caesar if the Republicans had not fled Rome. What if Cato and Cicero had stood firm, dressed in senatorial togas, with a citizen army behind him. Yes, Caesar's legions would have won the battle perhaps, but would even Julius Caesar have risked the conflict. As it was the Republicans all fled, first to Brundisium, then across the gulf to Greece. Cato fled to Utica where he attempted to rally a stand against Caesar, but ultimately took his own life rather than capitulate. The Republicans were divided. Caesar was literally of one mind.

      Nonetheless, for all of that, would it have been so bad for Rome to have Caesar and Cleopatra rule? Look at what followed… Nero, Caligula… Domitian… Commodus…
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      • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 2 months ago
        I have always wondered how much of the late Rome craziness of the famous four you just cited was caused by lead poisoning through the water supply.

        Given the hedonism of the time, the crazy could have disease origins too.

        As to what Caesar would have done in different circumstances, I think he would do whatever he had to for his own goals.
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  • Posted by Eudaimonist 9 years, 2 months ago
    Just because "tyrants" were appointed in antiquity, that doesn't mean that it is a mere prejudice that we look down on dictatorships today. We have historical reasons to be suspicious of them. Even if a rare dictator is benevolent and returns to raising his crops when the job is done, that doesn't mean that we can simply trust dictatorships as a means of governing society.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      A dictator did not "govern society." See the comments and references above. The dictator was a _constitutional office_ within the republic. It is just as easy to paraphrase your stance and say, "just because a constitutional republic once protected the rights of its citizens does not mean that we can trust it to always do so." Indeed, if you look at the 180+ governments of the world, even the worst of them has some constitution to alternately or simultaneously ignore and hide behind.

      In fact, we have such "tyrants" or "dictators" commonly today. It happens often in business or in community, that when a new chief executive is needed, a temporary CEO or director is appointed by the board for the interim.

      All I suggest here is a bit of "outside the box" thinking, rather than giving in to common cant.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 2 months ago
    Once upon a time... "Liberal" had a completely different meaning... The words change; the masters change, but one thing remains... "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." - Lord Acton The level of corruption and potential for tyranny is relative to the concentration of power over others.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      Lord Acton's warning is seldom quoted accurately or beyond the first sentence. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Perhaps the root of the problem is how we measure greatness. Also, we apparently have no corollary about great women.

      See above: in the ancient Roman republic dictators served a variety of functions and were limited in their powers and were also answerable under law.

      As for tyrants, I said at first that they were successful businessmen, men on the rise, who took over the management of the town. Why do you have a problem with that?
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 2 months ago
        Hello MikeMarrotta,
        Fortunately Lord Acton included the words "almost always." Because some great men are not bad men.
        As to your reference to historic definition of tyrants: I have no problem with that. It is just another word where the modern vernacular has changed. I only have a problem with tyrants in the modern meaning of the term.
        Your historical perspective and info. was actually quite interesting, though I do not see how in the modern definition of the words or the modern examples of dictators/tyrants they are "good."
        No one man or woman should hold such power. That job should not exist.

        Respectfully,
        O.A.
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        • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 2 months ago
          That option was created in the time of the Roman republic to fill an actual need. At times the government and/or its representatives could not get the job done. When that happened it was an option to fix problems. Not at all what we mean by the terms now.

          It was similar to the granting of "imperium" to a consul or other officer to act for and speak for Rome in their duties.

          The difference was large in degree of power granted, but under the law still subject to the same controls. The increased power did make enforcing control a much pricklier proposition.

          Modern era dictators and tyrants are more in the arena of having seized power rather than having it granted. (Inherited tyrants and dictators wield seized power at one or more removes)
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
          So, no corporation should have a CEO? All decisions in a company should be by a majority vote of two bodies before being approved by the CEO? How is any government different from any corporation? It is quite common in business and in public affairs that when the CEO steps down, an interim leader is chosen until the board can hire a new permanent leader. You are saying in that in a time of crisis when the public government institutions are unable to act, that NO ONE should be allowed to provide a solution?

          How to you evaluate George Washington? They called him "father of his country" as a direct reference to PATER PATRIAE, one of the titles of a Roman emperor. Just about every emperor was chosen by the Senate in response to a crisis.
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 2 months ago
            A CEO doe not have the power of force when you have a choice to work for them or not. Like any rule there is the exception that proves the rule. In times of emergency and only then, one person, the commander in chief must be allowed the power to protect the citizens. So long as the person in power can be removed by means of impeachment or vote of no confidence then there is recourse or capacity for redress of grievance. Dictators or tyrants in the modern vernacular that rule with impunity and are impossible to remove except by revolution... by means of arms, should not exist. The examples of benevolent Kings, dictators... single men in power that have not resorted to abuse are too few.
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