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Subject: Tall Skinny Lawyers

Posted by richrobinson 9 years, 3 months ago to The Gulch: General
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This may be old but it's the first time I saw it.

Subject: Tall Skinny Lawyers



You might be quite surprised ...Most of us know of the comparable relationship between Lincoln and Kennedy, but have you ever considered the comparisons between President Obama and President Lincoln?

Parallels of Abraham Lincoln and Barack Hussein Obama.

1. Lincoln placed his hand on the Bible for his inauguration. Obama used the very same bible Lincoln used for his inauguration.

2. Lincoln came from Illinois. Obama comes from Illinois.

3. Lincoln served in the Illinois Legislature. Obama served in the Illinois Legislature.

4. Lincoln had very little experience before becoming President. Obama had very little experience before becoming President.

5. Lincoln rode the train from Philadelphia to Washington for his inauguration. Obama rode the train from Philadelphia to Washington for his inauguration.

6. Lincoln was highly respected by some, but intensely disliked by others. Obama is highly respected by some, but intensely disliked by others.

7. Abraham Lincoln was a tall, skinny lawyer. Barack Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.

8. Lincoln held to basic Conservative and Christian views. Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.

9. Lincoln volunteered in the Illinois militia, once as a captain, twice as a private. Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.

10. Lincoln firmly believed in able persons carrying their own weight. Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.

11. Lincoln was undeniably, and without any doubt, born in the United States. Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.

12. Lincoln was honest - so honest that he was called 'Honest Abe'. Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.

13. Lincoln preserved the United States as a strong nation, respected by the world. Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.

14. Lincoln showed his obvious respect for the flag, and the military. Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.

15. Lincoln followed the U.S Constitution faithfully. Obama is a tall, skinny lawyer.


Amazing isn't it!!


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  • 12
    Posted by khalling 9 years, 3 months ago
    Lincoln did not follow the Constitution faithfully. 1. There would be no direct tax. He passed an income tax 2. He created legal tender laws which were ruled unconstitutional. 3. Passed the 16 th Amendment but did not get rid of the Draft. 4. He violated the 1st Amendment multiple times shutting down newspapers that wrote opinions that he disagreed with. Please note : all of these unconstitutional acts were done in the name of war. War is an excuse often to remove our liberties.
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    • Posted by jimjamesjames 9 years, 3 months ago
      I have always held Lincoln to be our first communist (small "c") president. Even as a kid, I was always curious as to why states, which created the union, couldn't choose to secede whenever they wanted. The fact that Lincoln initiated force against the secessionists on the pretense that "a nation divided cannot stand," was spurious, in my view, because, one, it was an obviosity, but, two, did not justify force. Does not: "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness" apply anywhere at anytime?
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
      C'mon, be honest here - Presidents cannot enact laws, only Congress can do that, and the P either signs such into law or not. However you want to characterize what L or O have done as P, it has not been to create laws.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 3 months ago
        President's highly influence the laws passed. Show me that he vetoed these laws. you just want to argue
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          His suspension of Habeas Corpus has always bothered me. I read some kind of quote once that said the Constitution is not there for when times are good but for when times are tough. Lincoln ignored that.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
          Not at all. Presidents have committed unconstitutional actions (most egregiously the current one). But they cannot enact law, thus whatever they have done is not legal. I just wish that there were those with the authority which had the gonads to do their duty. Whether it was legal or no, what Lincoln did was in the best interest of the nation - and was eventually rectified. The current regime, I fear, will not have the same result.
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      • Posted by sumitch 9 years, 3 months ago
        Why then is Obama care a law if he didn't create it?
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        • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago
          Congress enacted it as the Affordable Care Act.
          The media and politicians nick named it ObamaCare since he was pushing congress for it.

          It was created/written by staff from the white house and congress along with outside consultants.
          It was not written by Obama OR Congress
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
          The Congress passed a bill in both houses, and sent that legislation to the President who signed it into law. It was done according to the methods prescribed by the Constitution.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, slavery ended earlier than it would have, but that doesn't excuse the reasons for the war, nor justify the war, nor excuse Lincoln's premeditated acts in causing the war. (In my opinion;^)
    Apologies if it appears that I am too vociferous in my comments. I hate what happened to the republic as a result of Lincoln's actions, and the fact (imo) that Lincoln has escaped responsibility for them.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
      I don't seek to excuse the war, or even to provide justification for it (that is for others with more time and knowledge of the facts). Regardless of all of that, a great evil was ended, and that was a good thing.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Such rules change for the expressed purpose of tripping up people like Hank Rearden. Just ask Floyd Ferris.

    Which brings us to one of the most insightful passages I've ever read concerning the true nature of bureaucrats and their regulations. The author is Ayn Rand. These quotes are from page 411 of my edition of Atlas Shrugged. Basically, Value Creator Hank Rearden has been accused of breaking some regulations the bureaucrats have made about Rearden's steel business having to do with how much or little steel he may produce, when, and to whom he may sell or not sell.

    Says the bureaucrat Floyd Ferris: "You honest men are such a problem and such a headache. But we knew you'd slip sooner or later . . . [and break one of our regulations] . . . this is just what we wanted."
    Rearden: "You seem to be pleased about it."

    Bureaucrat Ferris: "Don't I have good reason to be?"

    Rearden: "But, after all, I did break one of your laws."

    Bureaucrat Ferris: "Well, what do you think they're there for?"

    Continues bureaucrat Ferris: "Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed? We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against . . . We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted [Frederick Mann: Obfuscation of meaning is a key element of the con games bureaucrats and politicians play.] - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." [emphasis added]

    Ayn Rand here writes one of the most brilliant expositions I've ever seen about the core of the bureaucratic mentality.

    Only if you feel GUILTY about your Value Creation can bureaucrats truly control you. When you admit and confess to yourself and to others that your Value Creation is morally wrong, you are psychologically defeated. This is precisely what they want. Only by making you yourself feel like a criminal about your Value Creation can they defeat you.

    The above was taken from AS page 411 and from
    http://www.mind-trek.com/articles/t12d.h...
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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    They are not relevant. If there had been no tariff there would have been no war.
    Read DiLorenzo's book, then we can talk further.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
      Regardless of whatever DiL seems to think, war was inevitable. Besides the situation in the South there was the tension with expansion of slavery to the west. Area expansion was going to happen, but expansion of slavery was not going to be allowed to happen unchecked.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
        No tariff, no war. Slavery was not the issue that fraudulent historians have pretended that it was. As long as you haven't heard the case for the defense you can't make a sound judgement on the issue.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 3 months ago
    I've heard it before. Items 3, 4, and 5 are obviously deliberate imitation by Obama.

    I disagree very much with #15. The suspension of habeas corpus is something Congress, not the President, gets to do in emergencies, and of course the income tax isn't even listed as an emergency power. That set a precedent that a President can do pretty much whatever he wants if HE says there's an emergency. Obama has wasted no time taking advantage, but neither did most presidents in the 20th century. Obama did go farther than they, though.

    And suspending habeas corpus (to lock people up indefinitely without charges) should only be done when the person is an actual danger to the country. Lincoln did it to several hundred Maryland and Delaware legislators lest they enact secession bills. Locking people up to prevent them from speaking to the public is a very evil precedent, and one that Bush II and Obama got away with doing largely because Lincoln did it and got away with it.
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  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This is the Fed as in Federal Government, not the banking crats


    This post of yours (this is an extract) earlier in the thread


    Posted by Robbie53024 23 hours, 12 minutes ago
    Google is evil - use Bing instead.

    There are many who want to knock Lincoln. They are either southerners who can't get over that they lost, or they are those who can't come to grips with the fact that in light of a war, actions need to be taken to win that otherwise wouldn't be permitted.

    You brought up Lincoln-Civil War-and a broad swipe at southerners.

    So that diverted us down this path
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
      Well, this all started as a second hand comment based on the comment by "irrelevantcommentforpoint" who said, in part: "Lincoln had no concern for negroes except as they competed against his constituents. His Emancipation Proclamation only "freed" the ones in territories he had no control or authority over." Which I think is demonstrably false. L-D debates and the Cooper Union speech show this to be incorrect.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
        This has been a great conversation about Lincoln and his Presidency. Most of what I have read has been about his assassination. I hope we continue the discussion.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
          There are many things, both good and bad, to learn from the Lincoln presidency.

          For those who continually claim that Lincoln did not oppose slavery, I point to his letter to Joshua Speed in 1855, and the Lincoln-Douglas debates in 1858 (in which Lincoln was seeking election to the US Senate, not the presidency). Both cases were well before Lincoln had any inclinations towards the presidency. On top of that, his speech at the Cooper Union in NYC prior to getting the Republican nomination to run for president also attests to his thoughts about slavery and the impending political crisis with the South.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
            Sorry for the length, this is from the Cooper Union speech:
            "But enough! Let all who believe that "our fathers, who framed the Government under which we live, understood this question just as well, and even better, than we do now," speak as they spoke, and act as they acted upon it. This is all Republicans ask - all Republicans desire - in relation to slavery. As those fathers marked it, so let it be again marked, as an evil not to be extended, but to be tolerated and protected only because of and so far as its actual presence among us makes that toleration and protection a necessity. Let all the guarantees those fathers gave it, be, not grudgingly, but fully and fairly, maintained. For this Republicans contend, and with this, so far as I know or believe, they will be content.

            And now, if they would listen - as I suppose they will not - I would address a few words to the Southern people.

            I would say to them: - You consider yourselves a reasonable and a just people; and I consider that in the general qualities of reason and justice you are not inferior to any other people. Still, when you speak of us Republicans, you do so only to denounce us a reptiles, or, at the best, as no better than outlaws. You will grant a hearing to pirates or murderers, but nothing like it to "Black Republicans." In all your contentions with one another, each of you deems an unconditional condemnation of "Black Republicanism" as the first thing to be attended to. Indeed, such condemnation of us seems to be an indispensable prerequisite - license, so to speak - among you to be admitted or permitted to speak at all. Now, can you, or not, be prevailed upon to pause and to consider whether this is quite just to us, or even to yourselves? Bring forward your charges and specifications, and then be patient long enough to hear us deny or justify.

            You say we are sectional. We deny it. That makes an issue; and the burden of proof is upon you. You produce your proof; and what is it? Why, that our party has no existence in your section - gets no votes in your section. The fact is substantially true; but does it prove the issue? If it does, then in case we should, without change of principle, begin to get votes in your section, we should thereby cease to be sectional. You cannot escape this conclusion; and yet, are you willing to abide by it? If you are, you will probably soon find that we have ceased to be sectional, for we shall get votes in your section this very year. You will then begin to discover, as the truth plainly is, that your proof does not touch the issue. The fact that we get no votes in your section, is a fact of your making, and not of ours. And if there be fault in that fact, that fault is primarily yours, and remains until you show that we repel you by some wrong principle or practice. If we do repel you by any wrong principle or practice, the fault is ours; but this brings you to where you ought to have started - to a discussion of the right or wrong of our principle. If our principle, put in practice, would wrong your section for the benefit of ours, or for any other object, then our principle, and we with it, are sectional, and are justly opposed and denounced as such. Meet us, then, on the question of whether our principle, put in practice, would wrong your section; and so meet it as if it were possible that something may be said on our side. Do you accept the challenge? No! Then you really believe that the principle which "our fathers who framed the Government under which we live" thought so clearly right as to adopt it, and indorse it again and again, upon their official oaths, is in fact so clearly wrong as to demand your condemnation without a moment's consideration.

            Some of you delight to flaunt in our faces the warning against sectional parties given by Washington in his Farewell Address. Less than eight years before Washington gave that warning, he had, as President of the United States, approved and signed an act of Congress, enforcing the prohibition of slavery in the Northwestern Territory, which act embodied the policy of the Government upon that subject up to and at the very moment he penned that warning; and about one year after he penned it, he wrote LaFayette that he considered that prohibition a wise measure, expressing in the same connection his hope that we should at some time have a confederacy of free States.

            Bearing this in mind, and seeing that sectionalism has since arisen upon this same subject, is that warning a weapon in your hands against us, or in our hands against you? Could Washington himself speak, would he cast the blame of that sectionalism upon us, who sustain his policy, or upon you who repudiate it? We respect that warning of Washington, and we commend it to you, together with his example pointing to the right application of it."
            "Republican doctrines and declarations are accompanied with a continual protest against any interference whatever with your slaves, or with you about your slaves. Surely, this does not encourage them to revolt. True, we do, in common with "our fathers, who framed the Government under which we live," declare our belief that slavery is wrong..."
            "In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and their places be, pari passu, filled up by free white laborers. If, on the contrary, it is left to force itself on, human nature must shudder at the prospect held up."

            Mr. Jefferson did not mean to say, nor do I, that the power of emancipation is in the Federal Government. He spoke of Virginia; and, as to the power of emancipation, I speak of the slaveholding States only. The Federal Government, however, as we insist, has the power of restraining the extension of the institution - the power to insure that a slave insurrection shall never occur on any American soil which is now free from slavery."
            "But you will break up the Union rather than submit to a denial of your Constitutional rights.

            That has a somewhat reckless sound; but it would be palliated, if not fully justified, were we proposing, by the mere force of numbers, to deprive you of some right, plainly written down in the Constitution. But we are proposing no such thing.

            When you make these declarations, you have a specific and well-understood allusion to an assumed Constitutional right of yours, to take slaves into the federal territories, and to hold them there as property. But no such right is specifically written in the Constitution. That instrument is literally silent about any such right. We, on the contrary, deny that such a right has any existence in the Constitution, even by implication.

            Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events.

            This, plainly stated, is your language. Perhaps you will say the Supreme Court has decided the disputed Constitutional question in your favor. Not quite so. But waiving the lawyer's distinction between dictum and decision, the Court have decided the question for you in a sort of way. The Court have substantially said, it is your Constitutional right to take slaves into the federal territories, and to hold them there as property. When I say the decision was made in a sort of way, I mean it was made in a divided Court, by a bare majority of the Judges, and they not quite agreeing with one another in the reasons for making it; that it is so made as that its avowed supporters disagree with one another about its meaning, and that it was mainly based upon a mistaken statement of fact - the statement in the opinion that "the right of property in a slave is distinctly and expressly affirmed in the Constitution."

            An inspection of the Constitution will show that the right of property in a slave is not "distinctly and expressly affirmed" in it."

            "A few words now to Republicans. It is exceedingly desirable that all parts of this great Confederacy shall be at peace, and in harmony, one with another. Let us Republicans do our part to have it so. Even though much provoked, let us do nothing through passion and ill temper. Even though the southern people will not so much as listen to us, let us calmly consider their demands, and yield to them if, in our deliberate view of our duty, we possibly can. Judging by all they say and do, and by the subject and nature of their controversy with us, let us determine, if we can, what will satisfy them.

            Will they be satisfied if the Territories be unconditionally surrendered to them? We know they will not. In all their present complaints against us, the Territories are scarcely mentioned. Invasions and insurrections are the rage now. Will it satisfy them, if, in the future, we have nothing to do with invasions and insurrections? We know it will not. We so know, because we know we never had anything to do with invasions and insurrections; and yet this total abstaining does not exempt us from the charge and the denunciation.

            The question recurs, what will satisfy them? Simply this: We must not only let them alone, but we must somehow, convince them that we do let them alone. This, we know by experience, is no easy task. We have been so trying to convince them from the very beginning of our organization, but with no success. In all our platforms and speeches we have constantly protested our purpose to let them alone; but this has had no tendency to convince them. Alike unavailing to convince them, is the fact that they have never detected a man of us in any attempt to disturb them.

            These natural, and apparently adequate means all failing, what will convince them? This, and this only: cease to call slavery wrong, and join them in calling it right. And this must be done thoroughly - done in acts as well as in words. Silence will not be tolerated - we must place ourselves avowedly with them. Senator Douglas' new sedition law must be enacted and enforced, suppressing all declarations that slavery is wrong, whether made in politics, in presses, in pulpits, or in private. We must arrest and return their fugitive slaves with greedy pleasure. We must pull down our Free State constitutions. The whole atmosphere must be disinfected from all taint of opposition to slavery, before they will cease to believe that all their troubles proceed from us.

            I am quite aware they do not state their case precisely in this way. Most of them would probably say to us, "Let us alone, do nothing to us, and say what you please about slavery." But we do let them alone - have never disturbed them - so that, after all, it is what we say, which dissatisfies them. They will continue to accuse us of doing, until we cease saying.

            I am also aware they have not, as yet, in terms, demanded the overthrow of our Free-State Constitutions. Yet those Constitutions declare the wrong of slavery, with more solemn emphasis, than do all other sayings against it; and when all these other sayings shall have been silenced, the overthrow of these Constitutions will be demanded, and nothing be left to resist the demand. It is nothing to the contrary, that they do not demand the whole of this just now. Demanding what they do, and for the reason they do, they can voluntarily stop nowhere short of this consummation. Holding, as they do, that slavery is morally right, and socially elevating, they cannot cease to demand a full national recognition of it, as a legal right, and a social blessing."

            Again, this was from before Lincoln was nominated as the Republican candidate for president.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Everything King George did regarding the colonies was legal.
    Slavery was legal.
    Lincoln refused to meet with the southern representatives to prevent war. That was legal, too.
    Dictators do things every day that are legal, and are reprehensible.
    Lincoln arrested many who spoke out against him. That was not legal, but Saint Lincoln gets a grand memorial in the Dark Center.
    Sometimes legal isn't enough, and men of conscience do not accept it.
    I do not accept Obama's legal orders regarding health care whether passed by con-gress or not.
    But this is way off topic ;^)
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
      And what the colonists did was illegal, but morally right.
      Disregard the law at your own peril. You may be morally right, but will you be around to enjoy it?
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
    Poor old Lincoln. He would not even recognize the USA if he were here today. I can picture him now, at first thrilled to see a "negro" as president. Then appalled when he finds out about him. I can almost hear him say, "What madness is this?"
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    • Posted by irrelevantcommentforpoint 9 years, 3 months ago
      More likely he'd admire how completely his "internal improvement" corporate welfare policies had succeeded without even acknowledging the damages done to liberty ... since his actions prove he cared nothing about liberty.
      Lincoln had no concern for negroes except as they competed against his constituents. His Emancipation Proclamation only "freed" the ones in territories he had no control or authority over. Consumate politician and power monger.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
        OooooF!
        I sure have a lot to learn about Lincoln Google, here I come.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
          Google is evil - use Bing instead.

          There are many who want to knock Lincoln. They are either southerners who can't get over that they lost, or they are those who can't come to grips with the fact that in light of a war, actions need to be taken to win that otherwise wouldn't be permitted. The real question is are those actions temporary or permanent. In the case of Lincoln, they were either temporary or were subsequently ratified by the congress.

          As for the EP, that was a cleverly crafted proposition. Since Lincoln couldn't enact laws (or amend the Constitution) by himself, he couldn't change the law in those states that remained in the Union, but he could take a military measure (which is what the EP was) to deal with the populace in warring territory. It actually was quite a clever solution - the slaves didn't need to be emancipated in the North, because there weren't any (or very many), and by using a military proclamation, he sidestepped the legal aspect.
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          • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
            No doubt, Lincoln was clever. But so are most of the congess-critters with power in the Dark Center today. Those who published the history of Lincoln were crafty, too, but they had to make it appear that the war was moral and to blame it on the loser, who never gets any say in how history is written. They took a 'cleverly crafted proposition' that freed no one and claimed for all posterity that Lincoln freed the slaves to justify his acts of war against his own people who resisted because Lincoln was a looter who was stealing from one group of American's and giving the proceeds to his pals who in return advanced Lincoln's power.
            Most of Lincoln's rave reviews come from big government looters, but the most objective look at Lincoln comes from Thomas DiLorenzo, not a southerner, who rips the facade off the sleezy politician. If you really want to know the facts about Lincoln and his Tariff War, read "The Real Lincoln."
            It isn't people who can't come to grips with acts in war that criticize Lincoln. It's people with conscience that were taught to think that America stands for something better, and that hiding the truth is reprehensible. Lincoln was reprehensible and the history written about him is a fraud.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
              I seem to recall that it was South Carolina that seceded from the Union that was the spark that caused the Civil War. We can argue whether secession was legal or not, there is no definitive answer. As such it was up to the President and Congress to determine how to address the action.

              One cannot say that it was authorized for the South to secede and that they should retain rights in the Congress. You just can't have it both ways. And if they hadn't seceded, then their actions were civil insurrection properly under the purview of the federal government.

              The cause of slavery was clearly brought out in the Lincoln/Douglas debates. While Lincoln was not a vociferous opponent to such in the debates, one must recognize that in an environment in which the southern states were part of the electorate, like any politician, Lincoln could not take a strong position that would alienate a good portion of the voters.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                South Carolina's secession was a consequence of the unbearable tariff situation.

                Regarding "One cannot say that it was authorized for the South to secede and that they should retain rights in the Congress", seceding states should only have lost rights in the Congress AFTER secession, but likewise, after secession, what right did the federal government have to continue taxing them? South Carolina viewed their situation before secession as "taxation by the two wolves and one sheep deciding what is for dinner rule". After secession, they viewed themselves as independent. Go to Charleston, SC sometime, and listen to their side of the story. It is much different than what is taught in the textbooks.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                  I'm not going to defend the tariff situation. But that was created by the congress. Makes one wonder about the basic system. Should this not have been a legal challenge taken to the SCOTUS? Either the system is proper or it isn't.

                  In the end, a great evil was eliminated. Whether that was the underlying intent or not seems immaterial. Had the war not been fought, would the end result been much different? Certainly slavery would have continued for some period of time longer, but do you think it would still exist today? Doubtful. Would a South, as a separate nation be much different? I think it would be much worse off.

                  I find the motivations much less important than the results.
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                  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                    If the war had not been fought, 620,000 soldiers would have lived a lot longer, and millions of people would have lived better lives. The southern states would not have been destroyed economically and might have been a significant competitor to Lincoln's political supporters. The expansion westward might have occurred much faster, without that pesky war causing all those poor investments in armaments.
                    Americans might have had a very different attitude toward central government and individual liberty might have survived much longer than it has.
                    Results would have been quite different, and possibly much better.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      But certainly not better for the roughly 4 million blacks in the south at the time, nor likely their children or grandchildren. Not until the industrial revolution in the early 20th century would their burden POSSIBLY been lifted.

                      You are right that those other things likely would have been the case. Does that good override the evil of those left in slavery?
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                      • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                        Until you go look at the data that DiLorenzo assembled it is pointless to continue because you have done exactly what the historians want you to do: change the discussion ignoring Lincoln's political excuse for making war on his own people.
                        It wasn't about slavery, it was about looting from one group of people in order to gain power for another group who could not compete with manufacturers in Europe, and increase of power for Lincoln and central government. Ultimately slavery was increased in that the sovereign people of the states were enslaved by government and the republic was destroyed. That is Lincoln, the politician's, legacy.
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                          I think that you way overstate the impact of Lincoln. Most of the damage came later as a consequence of progressivism, and Lincoln was no progressive.
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                          • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                            Until you have read DiLorenzo's work, we can't continue to discuss it because you can't analyze information you haven't seen. Its like a jury only hearing from the prosecution in a trial.
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                            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                              In looking for some info on DiLorenzo, I came upon this article by DiL on a book by Thomas Fleming: "Fleming actually understates this point: Slavery only benefited the slave-owners who exploited the slaves but was economically harmful to all the rest of Southern society because slave labor is inherently inferior to free labor. The entire South was poorer as a result. Moreover, the average Confederate soldier, who was a yeoman farmer who owned no slaves, was harmed by the slave-owning plantation owners through unfair competition."

                              So, according to Fleming (and DiL I would imagine), the entire South rose up in order to protect an economic system that was inferior, and dominated by a small minority just for giggles it would seem. They would have thrown off the culture of slavery immediately and willingly had the North merely negotiated with them? It is not that simple.
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                              • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                                Again, it wasn't about slavery. the South didn't oppose the north on slavery because it wasn't an issue at the time. Not an issue that caused the war, only an excuse to fraudulently justify the illegitimate war. Read more about the history of tariffs imposed by the Whigs and then by GOP on the south.
                                And read DiLorenzo's book The Real Lincoln, not just others commentary on DiLorenzo. Its akin to reading liberal reviews of Atlas Shrugged.
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                                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                                  How do you rectify that with Lincoln's Cooper Union speech - given before he was the Republican candidate for President? And even with the Lincoln-Douglas debates conducted 2 years earlier?
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                                  • freedomforall replied 9 years, 3 months ago
                  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                    You are right about one thing. Slavery would have gone away without the war.
                    If you check the facts you will find that Lincoln refused even to meet with members of congress from the south who wanted to discuss a peaceful resolution just days before the fighting began. By his actions (not historical propaganda) it appears that Lincoln wanted to punish the south for defying his 2nd tariff of abomination. Historians have perverted the history for 150 years and they continue to offer their perverted propaganda today.
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                    • Posted by Owlsrayne 9 years, 3 months ago
                      We still have a slavery system today but much more subtle. Let's start at the bottom; first we have the Welfare System, then the poor in rural America, the Coal Miners put of work by BHO, most of the middle-class male workers who have been out of work for years. Pretty big slave market if you ask me!
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      The South was not going to peacefully give up slavery. There was no other economy other than that supported by slavery. Nor was the culture ready to give it up, hell, we were still fighting to eliminate the vestiges of it a hundred years later. So your argument is without merit.
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                      • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                        Every other place that had slavery gave it up peacefully because it became economically unsound. The merit of my argument is the economics of slavery.
                        See comments above and read DiLorenzo's books. They are very rational and thorough. There is no point in discussion if we don't have a common body of knowledge to analyze.
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                          I don't disagree that slavery would have, eventually, gone away on its own in the US. But slavery still exists today around the world. It is evil and should be eliminated as quickly as possible. I cannot see a moral principle like elimination of slavery being "balanced" with an economic argument. There is no comparison. The evil of slavery should be a moral imperative. A moral people should do whatever is possible to eliminate slavery at every possible opportunity.
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                          • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                            The issue isn't slavery. It never was slavery. Until you have also read the additional information available regarding the reason for the war we have no basis for further discussion.
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                            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                              I've never said that the issue was slavery, merely that the result was an end to slavery. That was a moral good, regardless of the cause itself.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Do the ends justify the means?
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      No, of course not. However, as events unfold, if good can come about from bad, that can overcome some of the bad that was caused.
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                      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                        When you say that "I find the motivations much less important than the results", you open yourself up to the Dark Side of the ends justifying the means.

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                        • Posted by xthinker88 9 years, 3 months ago
                          The ends must always justify the means. If not, then you should not be doing what you are doing. Sorry. People using this statement is one of my pet peeves.

                          What people usually mean is that the end (most usually a good end) does not justify every possible means of getting there. But that is completely different than saying the ends do not justify the means. They must always. If the ends do not justify the means then nothing else can. :)
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                          Not at all. If a tornado wrecks homes in a town and I'm a builder and suddenly get more business because of it, does that mean the builder is suddenly evil? Whether the Civil War was directly caused as a war to end slavery or not, that was the result, and that result was good.
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                          • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                            Good? No. Southern congressmen were willing to negotiate to avoid war. Lincoln refused.
                            http://www.civilwar.org/education/civil-...
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                            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                              Do you seriously believe that the South was going to negotiate away its entire economic system and culture? I don't think so.

                              Whitney invented the cotton gin in 1794, yet 70 yrs later, slaves were still being used to pick cotton. The constraint of separating the seeds from the fibers dictated machinery, but the labor of picking the cotton was not constrained, nor was automation cost effective compared to slave costs. The south was not going to impose additional costs upon itself to replace slaves with machines on its own.
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                              • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                                You don't have the data to discuss this without being misled by fraudulent historians.
                                Slavery wasn't the issue; it was only used to bless Lincoln's sin by the powers that wanted war for economic reasons. The war was about money and power for Lincoln and his backers, but that would have meant history would brand Lincoln and his GOP as the war criminals that they were. No, they had to have a moral imperative and the American public swallowed the con because it was pounded into the heads of all the children at government schools.
                                If you don't care about discussing this, go ahead and judge only on the basis of the government's case, while ignoring the evidence presented by the counsel for the defense. The loser of the war (outnumbered 3 to 1) is guilty and sentenced to hard labor without benefit of representation.
                                You can not justify this war by not reading the case against it.
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                                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                                  I keep telling you (and others) that I don't dispute that. Regardless of whether slavery itself was the cause, the result is that slavery was abolished, decades before it would have been otherwise.
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                                  • freedomforall replied 9 years, 3 months ago
                                • Posted by sumitch 9 years, 3 months ago
                                  I prefer the notion that Lincoln was working to save the republic. A radio host that I like , Mark Davis, said that was true but if you were black it was definitely about slavery.
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                                  • freedomforall replied 9 years, 3 months ago
                              • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 3 months ago
                                Please read the history of the tariffs. There was a previous instance showing exactly how serious the south was in opposing such a tariff. History called it the Tariff of Abominations and it caused the Nullification Crisis. This continued to cause political conflict for 20 years thereafter between the Whigs and the Democratic party. The Whigs did not survive their own stupidity but memebrs of the party created the GOP and followed the same insane path demanding corporate welfare for the north to be paid by the south. Lincoln and the GOP and their backers knew that the south would not stand for such a tariff and they proceeded with it anyway. They wanted to crush the opposition in the south by any means necessary including war.
                                That was the situation and the reason for the war. It was premeditated and it had nothing to do with slavery.
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_A...
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                                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                                  Was the action done "legally?" In that it followed whatever legal process there was to enact such a tariff? If so, then the South had no cause to complain.

                                  We face much the same today. I am forced to purchase healthcare insurance against my will (Ok, I really don't have to since my employer provides same, but I would if they didn't). Do I have justification just to stop paying my taxes? I wish that I did, as I'd do so immediately (and that doesn't even identify all the other things that I don't agree with in all the alphabet agencies). You can argue that it was punitive and wrong all you want, but if it was enacted legally, you have no basis for supporting illegal action.

                                  As I said before, the issue of secession is not yet settled. What is settled is that a state once having joined the union cannot unilaterally dissolve that union. It may be possible if both parties agree on the dissolution (or the other states agree on absolving one of them of their bonds to the union, I hope that is the case).
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                                  • freedomforall replied 9 years, 3 months ago
          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
            Regardless of whether I am a Southerner or not, Lincoln was a mixed bag as a president. People forget that the Civil War started more over tariffs than slavery, particularly on agricultural goods, that by far disproportionately affected the South. After the secession, Lincoln barricaded Charleston as retribution for the South's no longer paying the tariffs. Moreover, the Emancipation Proclamation and other bills passed after Lincoln's executive orders "passed" without votes from the South and then were enforced on the losing subjects after the War of Northern Aggression.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
              But was it a good thing or not? Sometimes the right thing is brought about in the wrong way.
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              • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago
                Depends on your perspective doesn't it?

                The war resolved the question as to are the states individually sovereign or not. The answer after the war is that the states are no longer sovereign.

                In that respect I definitely do NOT consider it a good thing.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                  I don't think that it actually answered that question. What it did answer is that unilateral action is not permitted to dissolve a union.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Technocracy is right on this one. The loss of state sovereignty was instrumental in the eventual changes regarding how senators are elected, which in turn, has turned a constitutionally limited republic into a mob rule democracy.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      I'm not so sure that the 17th Amendment logically flowed from the Civil War, and since it took about 50 yrs, I don't think that you can make that case. No, it flowed more from progressivism and a thought that the intellectuals and direct election was preferable. I doubt that most of those evaluating the amendment were looking at this as a states rights/sovereignty issue as much as that "the people" should have direct involvement in electing the "elites" to rule.
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                      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                        Unquestionably, the 17th Amendment flowed from progressivism, but it would not have been likely if Lincoln had not previously established a precedent of getting away with violating the Constitution.
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                          Unfortunately, progressivism flows directly from the Enlightenment and a sense that the intellectuals can solve problems merely by thinking them through. That I think had more of an influence than any precedent on "violating" the Constitution. The 17th isn't a "violation" in the strictest sense, as it used the methods identified in the Constitution to make the change. It was wrong headed and stupid, but not a violation.
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                  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago
                    The Union is therefore not voluntary. And it wasn't unilateral action either, more than a single state seceded.

                    Claiming that as a unilateral action is the equivalent of saying the the US acted unilaterally in both Kuwait and Iraq. When in fact a coalition took action in both interventions.

                    It follows that the Federal Government has abrogated all sovereign power to itself since the civil war.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      What I mean by unilateral, is that only one party decided that secession was conducted. I would say that this is a contractual situation, and both parties must agree. But as I said, since it isn't addressed in the Constitution, the question is still to be resolved.

                      I don't think that the Fed Gov't has assumed all sovereign power. As I said, the question seems to still be outstanding. Until/unless there is a definitive answer, we still don't know. For example, could current states "buy" their way out of the union?
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          • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
            OK, Robbie, I'm learning.
            Look, I'm a very old guy. Even though I have been using computers for over 20 years, I am the kind of user who just sticks to what I've learned. I don't know, or really care to know how it works, just so long as it works. Why pray tell, is Google evil, why is Bing superior? I've been using Google since its inception. Is Bing easier to use? How does it differ from Google? At present I am reading 3 different books, and doing research and communicating with people all over the world. I really don't want to learn any new computer programs. Help!
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            • Posted by sumitch 9 years, 3 months ago
              I've a #1 son that is a developer (he corrected me when I called him a programmer) for Yahoo in San Jose. He was just transferred there last June. I mistakenly gave him access to my computer so he could fix some bugs for me and thereafter he was constantly sending me new wowsy programs. He just can't understand that I'm almost out of my league after email, spreadsheets and the calculator. I have to admit that I'm using the dictionary more than ever to try and keep up with some of the discussions in here.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
              Like Brenner states, there aren't many search engines that aren't corrupted. Google uses your info, and their clients interests to manipulate the ranking of the items that it shows you. I think it is being done for nefarious/political purposes.
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
              Google has an agenda most people don't know about. They were the driving force behind the Arab Spring, for example. But Microsoft (owner of Bing) is not a lot better. Frankly there are no good search engines left since Yahoo ruined AltaVista, the last search engine that didn't add a bunch of "hits" that really weren't hits.
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              • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
                So, it's merely a matter "of two evils, choose the lesser." I was aware of both of the sins of Google and Bing. I use Google simply because I'm more familiar with it. I only learn new things if they interest me or have some utility value. For example, I just obtained Dragon, the voice to typing program since my hands are being attacked by neuropathy and I'm a lousy typist to begin with. At my age I can assume room temperature at any time so I won't waste any of it if I can help it.
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                  I have invested in two different versions of Dragon Naturally Speaking over the years, and have been terribly disappointed both times. Dragon wouldn't install onto a computer that was more than six months old; it expected only an upgraded RAM and the latest operating system. Moreover, when I did get Dragon to install, it recognized fewer words that I use in technical papers (heavily chemistry-laden) than Microsoft's built-in speech recognition. Both MS and Dragon's speech recognition is still inferior to Apple's speech recognition from the 1990's. That is the one thing worth keeping a Mac from that era for.
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                  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
                    My copy seems to work OK. It's a little herky-jerky but I have the cheapest version. Apparently, the version I have as advertised on TV, is a door buster used to get you to buy the $199 version. Fat chance.
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