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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
    Not bad.
    If the viewer is turned off by the "selfishness" aspect, then chances are that this is not a mind open enough to accept her philosophy.
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    • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 3 months ago
      "selfishness" i.e. qualified by elaborating as "Rational Self Interest"
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
        Selfishness is a buzzword, used by Rand antagonists to turn people away from her philosophy, even though they know it is not used in its pejorative sense.
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        • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 3 months ago
          Yes, that is why I clarified with the over-arching "Rational Self Interest." My belief is that people have not grasped the meaning and intent in context, when the Objectivist uses the term selfishness.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
            You've got that right. One of the things that often amazes me is how those who have either read or heard some gobbledegook about Objectivism spout the conclusion that it's a childish, unimportant hunk of stuff derived from her fiction. When I question them, they get very defensive, but when you boil away the layer of fat, you discover that it can't be any good because people actually try to live my its precepts and those who try to live by it are only emulating the heroes from her books.
            El Barfo! (A little Spanish expletive) I respond: "Don't you think emulating one of her heroes would be a good thing?" If they would answer honestly they would have to say, "I've never read her books." Never got that honest answer, yet.
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            • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 3 months ago
              I always like to go straight for the throat, and ask them if they believe Robin Hood is a good hero or a bad hero, then as them specifically why.

              Then I grill them on what planet stealing is a good thing, or practicing charity with something you did not earn.

              Robin Hood was a great example of BAD selfishness, since he stole, coveted, and did it all so he would be looked upon as good while all the time doing evil deeds.

              And your 100% correct, the people who condemn the Objectivist, have not read Atlas Shrugged, or the Fountainhead, or my personal favorite, Anthem.
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 3 months ago
                Robinhood actually took back tax money taken from the people by the bureaucrats. So he wasn't stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, he was reclaiming stolen property to give back to its rightful owners. Like Ragnar.
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                • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                  Whatever Robin Hood did or was described as doing by the original legend, true or not, he is generally regarded as stealing from the rich to give to the poor. That is generally what is meant in discussions of Robin Hood today. Many people don't make the distinction between the wealthy and the King's tax collector.
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 3 months ago
                    I know....but why not tell the real story and that the story was retarded in an attempt to vilify the rich because certain someones thought that made for a more sympathetic story line. Liars.
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                    but that is exactly Ragnar's point. Where is the tipping point to "stealing" from a tyrannist like Prince John?
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                    • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 3 months ago
                      And in the book John Galt did not agree with Ragnar either, and did not "help" him in his piracy, but in the true nature of the individual did not prevent him either thus supporting the "Rational Self-Interest"
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                • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 3 months ago
                  Stealing is stealing PERIOD!!!
                  If you are not going to live by the laws then we have a lawless society whereby everything is permissible, and viola we have total anarchy.

                  If "The People" want to change their government and the taxation they bear, then they should do it. Oh wait, the Colonies did that hence the USA. Hrmmm...There is a RIGHT way and a WRONG way to solve the issue but stealing regardless of the motive is still wrong.
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                    but the point is tyranny. Robin of whereever (this is in dispute) came home from the Crusades to find his land confiscated and controlled by the Sheriff of Nottingham. He was responsible for many people. Since he was displaced, he gathered a small army together to defend the rightful King and recover the property stolen from the assets seized from his property and his villagers (employees). While one should work within a reasonable system to change how things are done-one should not have to stand aside and do nothing while they are being made slaves. We have sent two clear voting messages to the Congress and the leaders continue to ignore our votes. At what point do you say you are no longer represented? and would that be a tyranny?
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Correct, stealing is stealing. But reclaiming stolen property isn't stealing. That is true even if the stolen property was done so by corrupted government.

                    Look at it this way, if your neighbor borrowed your lawn mower, even with your consent, but then refused to return it, and then you went over and retrieved it, were you stealing? RH is the same thing. What was taken was done in a corrupt manner. The retrieval of same is merely returning property to its rightful ownership.
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        • -2
          Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
          But AR herself said that she intentionally used the word to elicit controversy, when self-interest would have been more correct and less bombastic.
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          • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
            She did not say that. You are misrepresenting again.

            Ayn Rand:

            "The title of this book may evoke the kind of question that I hear once in a while: 'Why do you use the word 'selfishness' to denote virtuous qualities of character, when that word antagonizes so many people to whom it does not mean the things you mean?'

            "To those who ask it, my answer is: 'For the reason that makes you afraid of it.'

            "But there are others, who would not ask that question, sensing the moral cowardice it implies, yet who are unable to formulate my actual reason or to identify the profound moral issue involved. It is to them that I will give a more explicit answer.

            "It is not a mere semantic issue nor a matter of arbitrary choice. The meaning ascribed in popular usage to the word 'selfishness' is not merely wrong: it represents a devastating intellectual 'package-deal,' which is responsible, more than any other single factor, for the arrested moral development of mankind.

            "In popular usage, the word 'selfishness' is a synonym of evil; the image it conjures is of a murderous brute who tramples over piles of corpses to achieve his own ends, who cares for no living being and pursues nothing but the gratification of the mindless whims of any immediate moment.

            "Yet the exact meaning and dictionary definition of the word 'selfishness' is: concern with one's own interests.

            "This concept does not include a moral evaluation; it does not tell us whether concern with one's own interests is good or evil; nor does it tell us what constitutes man's actual interests. It is the task of ethics to answer such questions.

            "The ethics of altruism has created the image of the brute, as its answer, in order to make men accept two inhuman tenets: (a) that any concern with one's own interests is evil, regardless of what these interests might be, and (b) that the brute's activities are in fact to one's own interest (which altruism enjoins man to renounce for the sake of his neighbors).
            ...

            "Yet that is the meaning of altruism, implicit in such examples as the equation of an industrialist with a robber. There is a fundamental moral difference between a man who sees his self-interest in production and a man who sees it in robbery. The evil of a robber does not lie in the fact that he pursues his own interests, but in what he regards as to his own interest; not in the fact that he pursues his values, but in what he chose to value; not in the fact that he wants to live, but in the fact that he wants to live on a subhuman level (see 'The Objectivist Ethics')
            .
            "If it is true that what I mean by 'selfishness' is not what is meant conventionally, then this is one of the worst indictments of altruism: it means that altruism permits no concept of a self-respecting, self-supporting man—a man who supports his life by his own effort and neither sacrifices himself nor others. It means that altruism permits no view of men except as sacrificial animals and profiteers-on-sacrifice, as victims and parasites—that it permits no concept of a benevolent co-existence among men—that it permits no concept of justice.
            ...

            "To rebel against so devastating an evil, one has to rebel against its basic premise. To redeem both man and morality, it is the concept of 'selfishness' that one has to redeem."




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  • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 3 months ago
    Great find! This should be played in all schools every single day.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
      Ed: While I don't have any problem with what was shown in the video, would you advocate for me to play a video of the philosophy of Catholicism or of Judaism? You can say that Objectivism isn't a "religion" so it isn't the same thing, but if it serves to displace religion, then isn't that the same thing? One doesn't get to say that their philosophy is OK because they know it to be "true and real" because others have just as much a right to say so about their philosophy.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
        I get the spirit of Ed's remark. Really what this is about is introducing a prominent 20 th century philosopher quickly and intriguingly. Perfect for high schoolers. Religion and significant religious leaders are addressed in History classes. At least were when my kids went through. It doesn 't present as an either or to religion. More a who and what. Right now few high schools I 'll bet ever discuss Rand in spite of her achievments. To your last point, individuals can and do assert truths philosophically. Objective reality is the same for you and me. Beliefs are subjective.
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      • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 3 months ago
        Objectivism is not a religion. It’s an inspirational philosophy of life that promotes individual values. To me religion is an individual value. Therefore the philosophy of Objectivism is useful to people of all religions or no religion at all. That is the reason I would advocate this message in schools. I don’t see it displacing religion nor would I ever advocate that. Religion is an individual choice.
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        • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 3 months ago
          Many years ago I read about Budhism and came to my own conclusion - that it was a philosophy and not a religion. Sure, it's packaged and churched up, but it didn't seem like a religion to me. Just one dummy's take on it.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
          "It’s an inspirational philosophy of life that promotes individual values." - I could say the same of most of the various persuasions of Christianity. When it comes to how you should behave - morality - then everything is philosophy only, or everything is religion only. You cannot state that one form of moral beliefs is one thing and another is something else, as some are very fond of stating: A=A

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          • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 3 months ago
            But those are not the defining characteristics of any religion, including all variants of Christianity. The essence of Christianity is a belief in God and his divine offspring, Jesus Christ. All religions advocate for some entity or force outside of this world. Objectivism does not. Therefore, it is not a religion.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
              The genesis of the philosophy is immaterial to the essence of it being a philosophy. As I said, if you want to call them all philosophies, that's fine with me. But they are all equal in the fact that they are platforms for a moral code. None is "better or worse" just different. And so long as they are harmonious in their call for living together, then they should all be accepted.
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              • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 3 months ago
                A "platform for a moral code" is a system of ethics. There is an Objectivist system of ethics and, in a rudimentary form, most religions have some sort of ethical code (e.g. the Ten Commandments). That much is true, but it sure doesn't mean that objectivism is a religion. And, of course, it is impossible for contradictory ethical systems to be correct. The moral codes of Christianity and Objectivism cannot both be correct. Therefore, they cannot both be "accepted" by the same person. Choose one (or neither).
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                • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                  He also rejected the significance of the entire content of metaphysics and epistemology, relegating them to no more than a "platform" for a "call for living together".

                  He doesn't understand any of this. He's a religious zealot hopelessly trying to rationalize whatever his politics are regardless of whatever actual reason he came to it.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                  Please explain to me how they differ in how an individual interacts with others.
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                  • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 3 months ago
                    I will assume you are not joking. A Christian is an altruist who believes God commands him/her to sacrifice themselves to others (even as Christ supposedly did for all of us). An Objectivist rejects this notion and believes that man should live for himself selfishly and, further, that altruism is inherently evil and contrary to man's nature.
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                    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                      Other major differences include the concept of morality itself as based on choice and causality versus duty and commandments, the notion of inherent sin, and the purpose as a mystical soul and another world.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      Then you have a misunderstanding of the tenets of the Christian faith.

                      What is your problem with Judaism? How about Hinduism, or Buddhism?
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                      • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 3 months ago
                        Are you saying Christianity does not teach us to love others above ourselves? To be our brothers' keeper? Do you honestly think that the ethics of Christianity are compatible with Objectivism? I'm beginning to think you are pulling my leg.
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                        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                          No, he's not pulling your leg. It's what he is. His ignorance of Ayn Rand's philosophy is challenged only by his militancy in misrepresenting it and in proselytizing for his religion.
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                          Yes. Christianity does not teach to love others above oneself. It also does not tell you that you are your brother's keeper. I challenge you to support that from the New Testament from the Catholic Bible.
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              • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                Hello, B,

                Again, I think, there is a confusion here because of imprecise terminology being used.

                Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. are religions, not philosophies and not ethics theories. There are philosophical aspects and ethics issues in them. But, without a doubt, their bases are faith. Faith is by definition not a rational proposition.

                As I pointed here recently in a different context, I have a moral code, not based on a specific philosophy or on a specific religion. It is: nobody has the right to DECIDE what is good for me AND I AM responsible for ALL my actions. You can advise me, but I am the final authority.

                I vigorously disagree that none of the religions or of the philosophies is better or worse, just different. In my opinion, there are huge differences in goodness or badness among both religions and philosophies. The beauty of this life is that I am entitled to that judgment. I learned long time ago that is nearly impossible to reason about religion with religious people. Here, among us Objectivist (which you said you are not), we can analyze and analyze forever the details of goodness or badness of religions and philosophies and "measure" them on some kind of "scale". Still, we would in the end part, each with our own opinions, perhaps somewhat improved, but friends as before.

                Do you see the differences I am trying so quickly to describe?

                By the way, this whole subject is the reason why I recently posted the little piece about the quote from Augustine of Hippo. I am surprised how little rational reaction I provoked. You only pointed out that clean of heart does not mean free of sin. That is only a tiny side issue.

                Friends as before (I hope)!
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                • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 3 months ago
                  I don't know if you were responding to me (I have never said I am not an Objectivist) and I don't see much to quarrel with in your post except your definition of your "moral code" which seems to lack much in the way of content. Hitler could agree with it.
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                  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Sorry, J,
                    I was responding to Robbie53024, who did answer to my question elsewhere that he is not an Objectivist. My thick fingers typed B instead of R.

                    I now understand that he thinks that Objectivism is a religion of worshipers of Ayn Rand. I certainly do not agree with that view.
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                  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Hello again, J,

                    I just noticed that in responding to you I neglected to respond about my moral code.

                    First, let me say that in my opinion religion, philosophy and ethics (moral code) are three different subject matters. To me, religion is based on faith and thus not properly rational. Philosophy is a system of concepts, rationally connected that include a recognition of limited knowledge. Ethics is an outgrowth of the fact that humans are social animals. The fundamentals of my ethics go back to virtues admired by ancient Greeks and ancient Egyptians before them. Virtues are learned values that we rationally consider to be valuable to our own lives. My top values are: justice, prudence, temperance, fortitude, hope and charity. On top of this I believe that in the longest run, good wins over evil. In this, I define good as something the enhances the quality of and happiness in life for me and for all other humans who respect those virtues I listed. I doubt that Hitler would agree.
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                    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                      Ethics arises from the fact that we must each make choices in our lives and what we choose makes a difference, requiring a standard and a code of values. That is primarily a personal matter, not social. How we should deal with others is a consequence. Ethics is one of the main branches of philosophy.

                      Religion is a primitive form of philosophy in its attempt to establish a coherent view of the world and how to live, although through faith and mysticism.
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                      • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                        I cannot quite agree with you. Philosophy, "pursuit of wisdom" in a loose translation, in my view is the most fundamental concept. As I said elsewhere here, in my opinion, religions start from a basic act of faith and then create conceptual structures to answer the questions that philosophy tries to answer. Dogma trying to dress itself in philosophy.
                        If I am alone on Earth, what does it matter if I behave cowardly or courageously? But as soon as I have my parents around, or my wife, or my children, the moral code matters a great deal. Would you say?
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                        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                          If you found yourself entirely alone it would be painfully obvious the importance of the choices you would have to make to live. The most fundamental would be to value rationality versus lapsing into fantasizing to discover where you were and what to do about it. Your life would depend on making choices in accordance with the right standards.

                          Standards of behavior with regard to others depend on what is proper for the individual in accordance with his nature.

                          The constructs cooked up in religion are attempt to understand the nature of reality and how to act. That is what the dogmas of their faith are.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                  Please don't misunderstand that I believe that all religions are equally good or bad, merely that they are all equal in being a system of moral philosophy. As such, individuals need to evaluate the tenets of said philosophies as to what they accept as best.

                  I had a recent interchange with LS who stopped interacting when the questions got to a point where she couldn't respond (my conjecture). So, I'll posit the same to you. Are love or freedom real and rational?
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                    you can't group the two. One is an emotion, the other is concept/system of how we deal with one another. Love can be rational or irrational. what is your end game here?
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                    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                      His game is to bait you into taking his rambling sophistry seriously. The end game is to promote his mysticism. It seems he has an Associate Degree Class II in annoying people as a way of life, trained by the Jehovah's Witnesses. His deliberate harassment and goading trying to make people angry is the essence of "troll". He does not belong here.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      Neither is tangible. Neither can be measured or experienced other than by the individual. If you observed and measured anything/everything about me, you could not state objectively whether I lived in freedom or not (go ahead, dare me to prove it). Objectively, rationally, you cannot prove/disprove my situation regarding love or freedom. Yet, I bet you would call each real and rational.
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                      • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                        Knowledge is intangible also. Can you measure how little you know? Have you ever experienced somebody expressing their intense love for you? Have you ever heard anybody explaining that freedom is a relative concept?

                        Come on, R! I am beginning to question you motives.
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                          People here keep saying that faith is irrational because you cannot prove it, touch it, see it, that this is "mysticism." It is no more mysticism than is love or freedom, neither of which can be proven, touched, measured, or captured and stored.

                          Why do you accept the concept of love or freedom, relative concepts as you identify, but negate that millions of people feel faith with as much or more reality to them?

                          Some here call me a religious zealot, but they are mistaken, I am zealous in my beliefs and will not be cowed by those who want to shut me up.
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                          • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                            Hello, R,

                            OK. I will try one last time.

                            Faith is, in my opinion, a belief or feeling that something is true. Religious faith is, again in my opinion, a belief in supernatural power of one kind of another, i.e. in the existence of God or Gods. That is the fundamental. Of course, even religious people being rational animals, they build conceptual constructs, which I think you believe are a philosophy. But to people outside the particular religion, that is not philosophy. It is dogma pure and simple.

                            The mysticism label comes from the fact that religious dogma cannot be rationally explained and analyzed. It is so because God says that it is. I think some people call that non sequitur.

                            Please note that you just said yourself that you are zealous, thus you are zealot. Sequitur. People smell zealotry.

                            All the best. Goodbye!

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                            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                              Are you not zealous in your beliefs?

                              What if I told you that God is nothing more than the essence of whatever/however the universe was created? Or are you of the belief that all that is spontaneously originated out of nothing?
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                              • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                                The universe was not created out of "nothing". Existence did not come from non-existence, which literally does not exist. There is no metaphysical Nothing out of which anything could be created.

                                If you want to understand how the physical universe has been evolving then consult science. When you don't know, you have nothing to say. Fantasizing about mystical realms will not tell you.
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                          • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                            Faith is an invalid means of obtaining knowledge by feeling, resulting in mysticism. It ignores that human thought is not infallible and requires rules of applying reason based on our perception of the world.

                            To love is to value. Freedom is the absence of coercion. Neither are mysticism.

                            Your constant, repetitive, inappropriate promotion of religious dogma on a forum for the ideas of Ayn Rand, which you trash in ignorance along with your personal smears and attacks, certainly is zealotry and does not belong here. No one wants you to "shut up", when you don't know something the rational position is to stop talking about it. It is you who has nothing to say. Take it wherever you want to but it is inappropriate to keep intruding on this forum with your religious proselytizing.
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          • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 3 months ago
            religion: qua religion, in the sense of blind faith, belief unsupported by, or contrary to, the facts of reality and the conclusions of reason.Faith as such is detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason.
            playboy interview with AR
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            • -2
              Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
              As quoted by one sitting in the pew of the religion of AR. Just because she said it, doesn't make it truth.
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              • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                It isn't true because she said it. It's true for all the reasons that have been given many times and which you continue to ignore. If you cannot contain your hatred for Ayn Rand's philosophy and cannot stop your misrepresentations and personal smears then go somewhere else. It doesn't belong on this forum.
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                • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 3 months ago
                  ewv,
                  thank you for your response. Robbie is just argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. He will not go away regardless of how often you present reality to him. he has yet to understand that A is A.
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                  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                    I don't think he argues for the sake of arguing. He is a repetitious, annoying religious zealot. Jehovah's Witnesses don't argue for the sake of argument either.

                    "A is A" seems to be some kind of dogmatic slogan for him, open to sanctioning any arbitrary assertion he wants. His bizarre statement, "You cannot state that one form of moral beliefs is one thing and another is something else, as some are very fond of stating: A=A", is false. "A is A" does not mean that "one thing" and "another" must be the same whenever he wants them to be.
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                  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Let's just never respond to him again. Boycott is legal in the Gulch. Isn't it?
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                    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                      It's called "don't feed the troll". Choose carefully what is worth responding to and for what purpose. Sometimes an explanation offered for that which does matter to more sensible people (with no hope of the troll understanding) can be valuable for insights in ways the troll didn't anticipate.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      Don't you find it curious that one who supposedly believes in "value for value," doesn't feel the need to become a Producer member? Doesn't that make you wonder just how honest they are in their philosophy?
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                • Posted by MelissaA 9 years, 3 months ago
                  Although I do agree with her on a lot of things I do disagree with her on some I can see their point. Just because ayn rand said it does not automatically make it true, you should read and research and discover your own opinions. If some of those are different than hers good for you! That means you are thinking for yourself and not blindly accepting everything you read as truth.
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                    It is also true that that we cannot be expert in everything. We might make assumptions that when we run up against areas of disagreement the expert has looked in depth at that area and may have more facts than we have or spent more time logically addressing the issue.
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                  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                    In addition to "reading and research" you should also understand what Ayn Rand meant by what she said and her reasons for it.

                    Neither your ideas being the same nor different than hers says anything about thinking for yourself versus blindly accepting what you read from her or anywhere else. It depends on whether or not you are in fact understanding and thinking. Disagreeing could just as well mean that one blindly accepts or has been manipulated by what someone _else_ said.

                    "Disagreeing" with someone is not a sign of independence. Believing you have to disagree in order to be independent is just as dependent on what someone else says as believing you have to agree.
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                    • Posted by MelissaA 9 years, 3 months ago
                      I get your point. But come on don't be like that, i said I agree with most disagreed with a few points, I'm not doing it because I believe I have to. There are people I look up to and respect, but also have different opinions from. Its a fact of life everyone gets some things wrong. I do too
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                      • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                        do you mind giving an example of an Objectivist position you disagree with? just curious
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                        • Posted by MelissaA 9 years, 3 months ago
                          One example is the a is a or existence is existence. The universe can be neither created or destroyed. I have a hard time believing that everything has just always been and always will be there had to be a beginning and eventually there will have to be an end.
                          Please don't argue with me I picked the least controversial one I had
                          My point in all this is we all won't agree on everything, that's what makes being on here fun. We agree on the big stuff disagree on the little details. So we debate them and but at the same time respect one another's opinions
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                          • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                            Everything hasn't been as it is now, and won't stay this way. For the meaning of the principles of existence and identity see the Leonard Peikoff "OPAR" book referred to previously. The philosophical meaning of existence or the "universe" is much broader than the concept of the physical universe of earth, the planets, stars, etc.
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                            • Posted by MelissaA 9 years, 3 months ago
                              I read that in a rand quote perhaps it was taken out of context?
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                              • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                                yes. But that's ok, you just need to read some of her non-fiction. Here is a starting point from Galt's Speech:

                                "To exist is to be something, as distinguished from the nothing of non-existence, it is to be an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes. Centuries ago, the man who was—no matter what his errors—the greatest of your philosophers, has stated the formula defining the concept of existence and the rule of all knowledge: A is A. A thing is itself. You have never grasped the meaning of his statement. I am here to complete it: Existence is Identity, Consciousness is Identification.

                                Whatever you choose to consider, be it an object, an attribute or an action, the law of identity remains the same. A leaf cannot be a stone at the same time, it cannot be all red and all green at the same time, it cannot freeze and burn at the same time. A is A. Or, if you wish it stated in simpler language: You cannot have your cake and eat it, too.

                                Are you seeking to know what is wrong with the world? All the disasters that have wrecked your world, came from your leaders’ attempt to evade the fact that A is A. All the secret evil you dread to face within you and all the pain you have ever endured, came from your own attempt to evade the fact that A is A. The purpose of those who taught you to evade it, was to make you forget that Man is Man."
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                                • Posted by MelissaA 9 years, 3 months ago
                                  Ok thank you! I now actually know the meaning of that statement
                                  Confession time I read the entire speech in one day and I'm afraid I may have glossed over some of it
                                  Also philosophy has never been my strong suit ( to put it mildly in reality i am almost failing the subject in school) I'm better at the political side so thanks for the help
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                                  • ewv replied 9 years, 3 months ago
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                    There are truths that are observable, measurable, and repeatable - that is science. All else is opinion. A moral code, how one bases one's life and interaction with others, is the biggest opinion out there. AR says that O is the only valid moral code. I say that thousands of years demonstrate that she is wrong. Tyrannical rule is not science, yet, but it is certainly observable, and repeatable. We may one day be able to measure tyranny - or bullying, or what AR called "Attila."
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              • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                minus 1. Objectivism is not a religion. You hang out on the site, but you have no interest in reading the most basic of her non-fiction.
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                • -1
                  Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                  minus 1 right back atcha. I didn't call Objectivism a religion, but that there are those who treat it as such. They seem to believe that anything that came out of the mouth or typewriter of AR is the undisputed truth.

                  I don't even treat what my parish priest says as the "gospel truth," nor that of the Pope himself for that matter - yes, I'm a Catholic heretic.
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                  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                    We have seen what you write. You don't read and don't understand what the philosophy is, yet continue to attack it and personally smear those who agree with it as you proselytize your religious opposite. You are attacking people you know nothing about. You have no objectivity in your dealing with others, a philosophy you are ignorant of, and your own speculations about the universe at large, all from your own imagination.
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      • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 3 months ago
        Equating philosophy = religion is a false equivalence. Philosophy tries to discern underlying principles upon which reality is based; religion tries to guess at a series of guidelines that will produce a positive outcome in a non-real scenario (ie 'go to heaven'). There is no advantage in philosophy not changing as our understanding of reality improves. There is a compelling reason for a religion that thinks it has found a Truth to not change it.

        That being said, one of my strongest complaints against Objectivists and Randists is that they begin to treat philosophy as religion. I have even been told that I cannot 'pick and choose' amongst what Rand said with respect to what I want to represent as my philosophy.

        Jan
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
          It is true that religion is not equivalent to philosophy, but it is a primitive form of it, attempting to formulate an integrated view of the world and how to live by primitive, invalid methods of speculation and faith. Religionists don't believe they are guessing, they accept mystical faith as a supposed means of knowing.

          A philosophy may expand, improve its formulations, or correct errors, but valid basic principles do not change. It isn't 'A is A' one day 'A is B' or 'not A' the next. The philosophical notion that on principle there are no principles is Pragmatism, not philosophy itself.

          Your being told that Ayn Rand's philosophy is an integrated system with logical dependencies and not a Chinees menu open to whatever you want it to be does not mean it is a religion.

          No one told you that you can't personally believe whatever you want with as many contradictions as you want for your own philosophy, but that isn't Objectivism.

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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 3 months ago
          I support everyone's right to pick and choose.
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          • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
            You have a political right to believe anything you want to, including falsehoods, with any picking and choosing you want. That is not the topic under discussion.
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            • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 3 months ago
              I could not have asked for a better example of someone who considers Objectivism to be a religion.

              Jan
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              • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                You do not have an example of someone who considers Objectivism to be a religion. Your comment is a dishonest, unresponsive smear.
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                • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 3 months ago
                  No. It is not. It is what I believe to be an accurate statement. Please note that it was made without use of any florid descriptive terms (unlike your post, ewv) and without rancor.

                  I do not accept the "Catechism" approach to Objectivism. There is no 'litany' and the concept of a philosophy that is based on independent thought and rationality being packaged as 'you must accept the whole thing hooklineandsinker' is absurd.

                  I will consider and accept the principles that I find rational. There happen to be more of those principles in Objectivism than in most other philosophies.

                  Jan
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                  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                    You can believe whatever you want to, but your smears and misrepresentations do not belong here. You did _not_ identify an example of "someone who considers Objectivism to be a religion". No one has advocated a "catechism" or "litany", nor was there "florid description". You don't have to "accept" anything. Whether you like it or understand it or not, Ayn Rand's philosophy is an integrated system of principles in a logical hierarchy, not a Chinese menu approach to philosophy for eclectics. So is physics. That does not make either a "religion", nor does it dictate to you what to do with your own life. No one told you that you cannot "pick or choose" anything from anywhere. Your statement is false, but the eclecticism is all yours. It doesn't change what Ayn Rand's philosophy in fact is, with or without your approval or hysterical smears.
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        • -2
          Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
          Yes, and they get really mad when you point out that they are sitting in the pew of the church of AR. ;-)

          To what would you attribute this definition: the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc. Sounds like religion to me.
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          • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
            No. Sounds to me as a definition of philosophy.
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            • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
              After the first line with his usual ignorant personal insult, he described philosophy while leaving out his primitive method of mystic faith to pretend he should be taken seriously.
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            • -3
              Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
              Then I don't think that you understand the purpose of religion.
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              • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                The purpose of religion is to impose on people a dogma, which the priests try to pass a quasi-philosophy.
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                  Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                  Some do, I would certainly say that most of Islam is dogma, fundamentalist Christian seems to be (I'm not that close to it that I would state that as fact), and those who call themselves "Orthodox" I would consider dogmatic.

                  The only religion that I'll attempt to speak authoritatively about is Catholicism. I'd say that even the Pope's of late have been less dogmatic in their perspective - heck, the current Pope has even opened up to homosexuality. There are some things that are fundamental, not necessarily dogmatic.
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                  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Did you notice that you said first that fundamentalists, presumably the people who stick with fundamentals, to you are dogmatic. Then you said, second, that some fundamentals are not dogmatic.

                    To me, dogma, as a conceptual structure, is a top down affair. But since we use "fundamental" as a descriptor here, it would be more appropriate to speak of bottom up. In any case, dogma is a structure, consisting of very basic "undeniable" (read unchangeable) fixed beliefs and then, following from that, a set of rigid, also undeniable truths.

                    Catholic Church has tried many times to rescind certain parts of their dogma, which were before that change just as "self-evident" dogmatic truths as everything else. A conceptual structure from which you can cut out pieces and the rest supposedly remains sound and untouched is not something I can consider with any confidence.

                    In the Soviet Union, the communist dogma was for all practical purposes a religion and writings by Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin were in effect their "bible".
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                    • -3
                      Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      "Fundamentalists" is a label, not necessarily an accurate description.

                      For the Catholic church, the prohibition of killing is fundamental and not dogmatic. All life is sacred, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. Just as much so is that fact that one owns oneself.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                The purpose of religion is to attempt to rationalize that which is beyond man's comprehension. Before I take flak on both the Objectivist and Christian perspectives, let me just say that humans are limited creatures. Part of the reason that we study science and outer space in particular, as well as philosophy is to answer some of those questions that are currently not sufficiently explainable. AR recognized this point. That is why she described the struggle between Drs. Akston and Stadler for the three star pupils: Galt, D'Anconia, and Danneskjold.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                  There's also a very heavy helping of how people should relate to one another - a moral code.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Certainly a purpose of religion is the establishment of a moral code common to all people who adhere to that religion, but the establishment of the moral code was secondary to man's attempt to grasp answers to questions like the origin of life and the origin of the universe.
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                    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                      Yes, morality, as well as a view of the world and the nature of man, are both aspects of a philosophy (or primitive philosophy) seeking general understanding. A view of the nature of reality and of man will determine a moral code of how he should act, but is much more than that.

                      In primitive times it was not a matter of first developing a theology of the universe and then going back to start over with ethics, or of formulating ethics before ever thinking about the nature of the universe. People had to make choices from the beginning. All major aspects of a philosophical world-view evolve together, beginning with a sense of life with a lot left implicit.

                      A primitive, mystical view of the universe has a profoundly negative effect on a subsequent moral code. Rational, civilized people do not define the good in terms of submissively obeying commandments from a god and living for another world.

                      Even morality, as part of a general outlook, is more than "how people should relate to one another". It concerns the choices we must make which make a difference in our lives, beginning with the choice to think or not. There are no moral principles for dealing with other people without first formulating an understanding of the nature of man and what is moral for him as an individual. The insidious influence of altruism has led people to view morality as only concerned with relations with others, and then only as sacrifice as the meaning of the good.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                      I'm not so sure which came first. I can envision a scenario where the moral code were proposed and the people's asked - Why? And the answer had to turn on the consequences in an afterlife. I think the day-to-day far outweighed the future when these things first started.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You will not fully understand that speech until you learn much more about philosophy and begin to see how much she was addressing and challenging in the traditions of the history of philosophy. Ayn Rand spent 2 years working on writing that speech in the novel so that it would both correctly express her ideas and fit into the style, plot and theme of the novel

    OPAR will give you a much better additional understanding because it is a non-fiction, systematic explanation unconstrained by the limitations of a novel.

    But you still need the broader context of its relation to the prominent philosophies in history which still dominate. For that it doesn't matter that you are getting nothing out of your school course in philosophy. The way it is typically taught, it is a good sign that you are by natural inclination choking on it and throwing it up.

    When you have the time, listen to the recordings of Leonard Peikoff's lecture courses on the history of western philosophy that he first gave in the 1970s. At $11 for each of the two series they are now very inexpensive.

    https://estore.aynrand.org/p/95/founders...

    https://estore.aynrand.org/p/96/modern-p...

    There is also a free version at the ari web site but it is more cumbersome to listen to and isn't set up to be downloaded.

    There is also good discussion of the role of the axioms of existence, identity and consciousness for their role in conceptual knowledge in Ayn Rand's Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, but that can come later.

    You will find an enormous difference between all of this and what you are currently suffering through at school.
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  • Posted by blackswan 9 years, 3 months ago
    Ayn Rand has been the biggest influence on me, because she saved me so much time and effort in creating a rational worldview. I'll love her forever.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
    The two minute summary of Objectivism was brief and to the point.

    As an aside, according to the video, Mark Cuban found AR "inspiring". Is there any chance to reconsider Mark Cuban for a role as one of the titans in Atlas Shrugged - Now Non-Fiction?
    I know Khalling had some reason for not liking Mark Cuban that I have since forgotten.

    As the founder of Compuserve, Mark Cuban has long been one of my heroes. Thanks to him, I was on the Internet at the whopping speed of 312 bits per second back in 1985, with one of those CD's he became famous for once AOL bought out Compuserve.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
      What do you mean by reconsidering Mark Cuban for a role as one of the titans in Atlas Shrugged as non-fiction? Atlas Shrugged has already been written, as a novel, and he isn't in it and wasn't considered for it the first time.

      There have been a lot of productive industry leaders, but most don't come close to having the character of a Hank Rearden and Ellis Wyatt. You have reasons to admire Mark Cuban for his productive success with a particular product, but what do you think does he has to do with Ayn Rand's philosophy in Atlas Shrugged?
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
        ewv, you are entering a discussion that a number of us have had for several months, and apparently you are unaware of the prior discussion. You may remember the T-shirts coming out that said "Atlas Shrugged: Now Non-Fiction". A few of us suggested that that might be the proper follow-up to the 3 movies. As part of that discussion, the topic of Mark Cuban had come up given his business prowess. If you had watched the video at the start of this thread, you would have noticed that Mark Cuban was referenced in the two-minute video. Khalling and I have had a discussion about Cuban's worthiness (perhaps ideological purity?) to belong in the discussion of an Atlas Shrugged: Now Non-Fiction. As Khalling reiterated today, Cuban is against patents, but for trademarks - a strange contradiction.
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
          Ok. I don't know much about Cuban.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
            Most people know Mark Cuban as the (outrageous to some) owner of the Dallas Mavericks basketball team or as one of the five sharks (venture capitalists) on Shark Tank, a show on CNBC in which entrepeneurs present new business ideas to a group of five venture capitalists. The five venture capitalists grill the budding entrepeneur(s) and compete against each other to see which one(s) will provide capital to the budding entrepeneurs for expansion. This is the rare TV show that is worthwhile for Gulchers to watch.

            What most people don't know is that Mark Cuban started the first nationwide online service provider (Compuserve) before selling it to America Online. Cuban was a self-made billionaire by the time he was 30.

            Remember this scene from AS1.

            Paul Larkin: They say you're intractable, you're ruthless, your only goal is to make money.
            Henry Rearden: My only goal is to make money.
            Paul Larkin: [whisper] Yes, but you shouldn't say it.

            Mark Cuban would not have been acting if he had played Hank Rearden in that scene. That scene characterizes Mark Cuban to a T.
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            • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
              I know he's on Shark Tank, where he is described as owning a basketball team after making a fortune with an unspecified computer company, but don't know what his character or philosophy are like.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                His philosophy, even with Khalling's point factored in, is not all that different from ours. As for character, I don't know much about his personal life other than his propensity to say or do things that "the establishment" doesn't like. It is appropriate that he owns the Dallas Mavericks; he is definitely a maverick.
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                  Cuban does things his own way because that's the way he thinks things should be done, much like Howard Roark from The Fountainehead.
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                  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                    When you "factor in" that it sounds like he has nothing against "stealing", if he meant that literally, it's hard to imagine him having a "philosophy like ours". I still don't know what his philosophy is. Being a "maverick" and doing things "the establishment doesn't like" leaves open a lot of possibilities other than a Roark. Based on what I've seen and haven't seen so far I'm not about to equate him with Atlas Shrugged, "I'm out".
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                    his public comments are clear. He is for a "democracy" that "feels" IP rights aren't essential and are as a matter of fact- against capitalism. Capitalism is based on property rights. If you do not understand that or reject that-you are not an Objectivist
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                    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
                      As you and your husband eloquently point out in your book, IP is important in the software industry (obviously). However, there does get to be a point (that I think has been crossed in that industry) where the time that it takes to get patent protection is so long compared to the time scale for innovation such that the patent protection loses a lot of its value. The trademark loses its value at a much slower rate. I am not saying that I am against patents, but their value is diminished in a world where the innovation rate is as high as it is in the Internet Age.
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                      • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago
                        In the article cited he said he is categorically against _all_ "software patents" and "process patents", and seemed to employ a standard of what he thinks is good for the "economy" or "efficiency" without regard for the property rights of the individual, as if rights were nothing more than pragmatic entitlements provided by government. With his sanctioning the "stealing" of any ideas for "processes" eligible for "process patents", you have to wonder what he thinks "stealing" is without property rights. It was only a brief article, but he was emphatic with no qualifications. He used the term "steal" himself. He has a lot of explaining to do.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 3 months ago
    Yes. Any adult can understand this, and almost anyone will take 2 min to view a video. Most people claim to hate Rand, and don't even know the first thing about the books. All that makes this possibly one of the most important short videos I've ever seen.
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  • Posted by ewv 9 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, that's the point. But In the realm of faith, that has no meaning. Honesty and knowing presuppose objectivity. Under faith, knowledge is replaced by a meaningless drive for omniscience: when you can't tell them what happened the stock fall-back is "God did it", which explains nothing. In the realm of the arbitrariness of faith fantasizing knowledge -- with no standards and no proof, and imagination replacing reality with concepts unrelated to perception of reality -- the concepts of knowledge, the distinction of 'know' versus 'don't know', and honesty all lose their meaning.
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    • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 3 months ago
      Hello E,

      Thank you very much. I think that I knew all of what you said here, but in perhaps somewhat vague manner. Nothing beats complete clarity. In fact, I think, it increases the depth of understanding.

      I also think that some of their confusion stems from inadequate understanding of metaphysical concepts.

      Thanks, again.
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  • Posted by Danno 9 years, 3 months ago
    All action is selfish. Even altruistic action is. How long will the Happiness last?
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
      You are correct. As I try to tell my children, you can never be made to do something that you don't want to do. You can be presented with alternatives that are both undesirable, with one being slightly less undesirable than another, so you choose that one, but you have still chosen. This is a concept that too few understand. Except for those things that your autonomic nervous system does independent of thought, and "instinctual" actions, all else is choice. The context of the choices changes, but since everything you do is a choice, you must inherently be taking action in your own self interest, since by definition, if you choose it you must deem that choice "better" than other alternatives - from a set of criteria known only to you. (Of course this discussion does not pertain to those who have mental impairment, as they are incapable of rational choice.)
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    Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am honest. What is it that you seem to think that I "don't know?"
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      plenty about Objectivism. You either mis-state on purpose or through ignorance many important Objectivist concepts. it's annoying. read some books before you go around doing that.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
        Why should I? Many here want to mis-state the tenets of Christianity.

        I understand the "theory" of Objectivism, I just reject it. History demonstrates that it is fallacious. I believe history.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          do you understand what a theory is? A theory is a conceptual framework integrating and explaining and predicting millions of facts.
          Objectivism is a philosophy based in reality.
          see? lots of work to do...
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
            No. It is a theory. That is all.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
              since you refuse to read the logical system underpinning and proving the philosophy, there is nothing more to say. but your choice to not read more yet stay on this site? that speaks volumes.
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              • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 3 months ago
                It's juvenile, teenager behavior. Your description, above, would be the same of a Troll that had not been on the site as long. Maybe, enough layers of his camouflage have finally been removed that his unfiltered disgust of Objectivism is showing more often.

                His posts are like listening to a broken record with deep scratches which turn what might have been a tune with potential into an interrupted and disconnected annoyance. He is unwilling, or unable, to stay on point, frequently shifting focus to some tangential red herring, and often taking cheap shots at people trying to learn more about Objectivism or Ayn Rand.

                Maybe he thinks he is some avenging 'angel' for his beliefs, or something else; I don't know. But I don't see someone interested in the ideas of Objectivism or the novels of Ayn Rand. He can pay a la carte lip service to the movies all he wants, but his posts indicate that he isn't interested in the ideas that gave rise to them.

                His favorite conundrums show a lack of understanding of the fundamentals that explain the nature and primacy of existence. So, he shouldn't be surprised, if he stays, to be ignored, or have his flawed chains of thought dismantled.

                As you said...it speaks volumes...are there contradictions...?
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                A philosophy that does not account for the reality of human behavior is nothing more than a theory.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                  more than any other philosophy in our history, Objectivism accounts for human behavior. robbie, this is sad
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                  • -1
                    Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Then how does it account for how Attila continually prevails? And is again prevailing? No, O does not account for the fundamental "failing" of humanity.
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                    • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 3 months ago
                      Objectivism accounts for Attila and his ilk very well by explaining what humans without education in or living outside of an Objectivist society are capable of and as well what those that count on their religion and good will by all humanity for protection get. Had Attila or his victims been raised in an objectivist society in which the individual and his natural human rights were respected and honored instead of how much could be stolen--a different world.

                      Remember that Objectivism was only published through AS starting in 1957 with scholarly writings following, yet Christianity had been there for 2000 years, without much success against WWI, Hitler, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Idi Amin, Pol Pot to name just a few. And now we're dealing once again with another religiously driven murderous ideology, Islam.
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                        It does not account for the fundamental failing of humans. It demonstrates itself repeatedly time after time over the centuries. Some (many!) humans seem OK with subjugating themselves to others. They may claim to be dissatisfied with the situation, but rarely do they rise up and throw off the shackles, even though they would seem to have the ability to do so.

                        If it is merely "enlightenment" that is needed to achieve this O type society, what accounts for the US today? It is certainly not religion that is causing what is occurring today.
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                        • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 3 months ago
                          Blind faith plays a huge role in what is occurring today. Blind faith in government for one, blind faith in religion for another (just pray.... it must be God's will...it says this in the bible so it's just meant to be), and I have actually HAD that conversation with a co worker.. "well...this is all predicted in the bible and now it's happening"... THAT is NOT a solution to 'what is occurring today". So, yes, religion can, and does play a role in the complacency that allows these things to continue and grow.
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                          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                            "Blind Faith" as you put it is naïve and a misunderstanding of Catholicism, if not all factions of Christianity. Although not specific doctrine, it can best be summed up by the statement that "God helps those that help themselves." Seriously, I think that you folks have more misunderstanding of religion as you think that I do of O.
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                        • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 3 months ago
                          But we don't have an 'O type society' in the US today, we have a statist/socialist society and a government by dictate today with tyrannical police state growing by leaps and bounds since 2000.

                          How is any of that comparable to an 'O type society'?
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                      if Atilla prevailed, Hitler would be in charge now, or Stalin or Mao or Rachel Carson...Objectivism is based on reality.
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                        And once again, when I bring up a point that you can't refute, you simply stop the conversation.

                        I repeat:
                        Hitler prevailed for more than 6 million Jews and several million Gypsies, Homosexuals, handicapped, etc. That was a cruel reality for them.

                        You seem to think that since they didn't last "forever" that they somehow don't seem to count. These "Attilas" are very real.

                        How do you account for the "enlightened" US populace which is seemingly placing itself back under a tyrant, enslaving itself to a government? This has nothing to do with religion, in fact, it is partially due to a lack of religion, in my estimation. BO is not using a religious argument to push altruism, quite the contrary, he's using selfishness and class envy, very much anti-Christian themes (as well as most other major religions).
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                        Hitler prevailed for more than 6 million Jews and several million Gypsies, Homosexuals, handicapped, etc. That was a cruel reality for them.

                        You seem to think that since they didn't last "forever" that they somehow don't seem to count. These "Attilas" are very real.

                        How do you account for the "enlightened" US populace which is seemingly placing itself back under a tyrant, enslaving itself to a government? This has nothing to do with religion, in fact, it is partially due to a lack of religion, in my estimation. BO is not using a religious argument to push altruism, quite the contrary, he's using selfishness and class envy, very much anti-Christian themes (as well as most other major religions).
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      • -2
        Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
        What do I mis-state? Please cite specific examples.

        You are likely to state "rational selfishness." That "theory" says that no person should exert their will over another, because it would then cause their own liberty to be at risk. I say that is idiocy and has been disproven by thousands of years of history.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          I am not going back over all the posts and present a case. It's obvious. You have had plenty of pushback. yet, you refuse to read some more so we can have an intelligent conversation. it's exhausting to start at square one with you. You're smart, go read some more and then make outlined arguments against the metaphysics. let's just stay in that realm. you have mis-stated many things about simply A is A. I'm annoyed now, so I'm not responding to you on this subject anymore tonight. be useful to me
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          • -2
            Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
            I'm not here to be useful to you. I'm here to be useful to me. If others derive some benefit, good for them. I've tried to bring enlightenment, but I cannot make those see who will not open their eyes.
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