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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 4 months ago
    Good presentation. Thanks for posting.

    I've often argued that the Constitution as we believe it, only actually existed for a few minutes after signing. Hamilton and his Federalist buddies had already developed their plans to pervert it before the signing was completed.

    When he convinced Washington to put down the 'Whiskey Rebellion' with Federal troops, Washington got sick of what he found himself doing and abandoned the field, Hamilton gladly stayed to lead the troops.
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    • Posted by MagicDog 9 years, 4 months ago
      I totally agree. Read "Fallen Founder" The life of Aaron Burr, by Nancy Isenberg. Jefferson was more of a moderate. Burr was more of a Libertarian and political genius. He opposed Hamilton and his crowd for many years by written and spoken word. Of course finally and finally by pistol. It is good reading and you will not have gotten this information in school.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
    What it boils down to, is that the Constitution limits government in order to keep the citizenry as free as possible, and advocates of central control need to eliminate that in order to fulfill their agenda, which opposes freedom. Basically pretty simple, and yet it seems, herder to grasp than the latest quantum equation.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 4 months ago
      It just requires a people who actually WANT to rule their own lives. There are a lot of people who are content to just do what others dictate. Those are the people for whom a free society are a burden. Those are the ones for whom a dictatorship or communist society is preferable.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
        I have friends in NZ who moved there having grown up in eastern europe under the soviet system. They are torn between longing for the soviet system that delivered secure jobs, a lower standard of living, but more peace of mind, versus the more free market with job insecurity, higher monetary standard of living, but less economic peace of mind. They long for simpler life of socialism even though they recognize that it collapsed.
        TANSTAAFL.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The bond exists because you created something out of nothing.

    Do not confuse fractional reserve banking, with a central bank or legal tender laws. Legal tender laws are the only way government can enforce the use of a certain money and this is always done so the government can counterfeit money. The 1st legal tender laws in the US were declared unconstitutional, but Grant then packed the court and got the decision overturned. Central Banks (the Fed in the US) are government planning agencies that direct credit and interest and also takes over the printing of money (Counterfeiting). I am dead set against Central Banks and Legal Tender Laws. However, fractional reserve banking is not a part of either of these and they do nothing different than is done in the Bond market.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      Are you saying that your explanation and example of bond creation being like bank loan creation is only appropriate when fractional reserve banking is not part of the banking system ?
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 3 months ago
        I don't think so. What I am saying is lets get rid of the legal tender laws and the Fed. But lets not outlaw free market banking.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          We agree on some of the solution. The current cartel of frb money token creation must end and a free market established. Unfortunately, history indicates that no human can be trusted with creation of money tokens for profit. Today it may be possible to track a multitude of currencies and rate them based on timely public disclosure of token creation, but the system would still be dependent on honest timely reporting. It is guaranteed that,if allowed legally, many will game the system to get 'free' money instead of doing productive work, e.g., scientists employed by Wall St in a zero sum game who could be employed in productive research instead.
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          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 3 months ago
            I am also disgusted with the banksters. In free market no one decides what money is and therefore money can be created by anyone. In the US there were thousands of different types of money before the civil war.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 4 months ago
    Hello freedomforall,
    Thank you for presenting this most excellent presentation.

    I am a Jeffersonian! If I had lived alongside Hamilton, I might have saved Burr a lot of time and trouble.

    Jefferson on central banking:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrxKOO0n...

    “The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. ”

    ― Thomas Jefferson

    http://mises.org/library/central-banking...

    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    but you are changing the point. we completely agree that printing money-putting it in the system at close to 0% interest is immoral
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      I was trying to discuss with db the process of creation of money. He said that a bond created by a company is creation of money just the same as a frb bank creating money in a loan. My point is that a company issuing a bond is not the same as a bank creating money from nothing, The company has something to start with, a productive asset that they have created with genius and have impressed the free market enough to want to buy the company bonds of their free will. The resulting bond is not "legal tender" by government decree. The banks "assets" are politicians that they have purchased to create laws to eliminate competition for the banks and to give banks legally the power to create money from nothing without having produced anything tangible (except misery.) Bond issuance (in absence of fraud) is not creating money from nothing. It is not legal tender and can't be used as such.
      If Hamilton's banking system only allowed banks to make profits as rent on their own capital created honestly without monopolistic powers and only loaning the capital itself not a multiple thereof in a market of free will I would not take issue with it. (This discussion started with db's support of Hamilton's banking system.) Imagine, if you will, what would have happened in America if the constitution had not been amended with the bill of rights. I understand Hamilton to have been the architect of that constitution that lacked any protection for individual rights. That is how I view the honesty of Hamilton's banking proposals.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
    Pretty good. Hamilton was absolutely right on Banking and Jefferson and Jackson were completely wrong on this point. But Hamilton's Mercantilism was a disaster. Luckily Washington usually restrained Hamilton's worst propensities.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      How do you mean Hamilton was right on banking? Please include source links if possible. Thanks.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
        Hamilton pushed for the 1st National Bank. This was a private bank with a strictly limited number of government directors and limited percentage of government ownership. They did not have the power of legal tender laws. If Jefferson and Jackson had there way there would have been no banking and it would have been much more difficult to have dug out of the debt from the revolutionary war. A great book on point is Hamilton's Blessing. I don't agree with everything he says, but Hamilton's understand of finance was way above that of Jefferson, who wanted us all to be self sufficient farmers.

        Also see my post on Central Banks, Legal Tender Laws, and Fractional Reserve Banking http://hallingblog.com/understanding-the...
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          From my reading of it, the "success" of Hamilton's program was based upon its acceptance by private bankers who did so because it gave them the beginning of control of the upstart Americans who had immense natural resources to be plundered.
          I heartily agree with the anti-federalists/Jeffersonians resistance. They understood finance far better than the Hamiltonians wanted them to. Jefferson and Jackson were not against banking; they were against piracy. They had no argument with bankers risking their own hard earned capital in the free market. Bankers, however, never wanted to enter any market they could not control and eliminate outside competition.
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          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
            No they did not understand banking at all. Like modern Austrians they attack fractional reserve banking as creating money out of thin air, but ignore that it is exactly the same thing as issuing a bond and similar to issuing stocks. This securitization of assets is absolutely vital to a growing economy and without it the Industrial Revolution could not have been financed.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              I disagree, they understood exactly what private banks would do and they based that view on history instead of promises. Bonds and stocks have assets backing, at least they do until Wall St gets involved. Fractional reserve banking is backing it with nothing but con-fidence. Its a con-fidence game. I agree, securitization of assets is very important, but fractional reserve banking has nothing in common with that vital function. The need would be answered/fulfilled by the market in the absence of both the Wall St gang and the banking cartel.
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              • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                It is exactly the same thing. That is what the bank does. It backs its paper notes with gold, land, and other assets. securitization
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
                  That's just not mathematically correct.
                  $100 is deposited. 10% is held in reserve and $90 is loaned. This is used to purchase something from a vendor who then deposits the $90 in the same bank. The bank now has "assets" (really liabilities) of $190 from the original $100. $90 "magically" was created from nothing. If both depositors showed up and demanded a return of their deposits, the bank would not be able to provide it, as they only have $10 left from the reserve of the original deposit and $90 from the second deposit for a total of $100.
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 4 months ago
                    That 90$ isn't coming out of nowhere - it just can't be in two places at the same time. This is where the interest rates and terms come in. The depositor can insist on being able to pull out all his deposits at the drop of a hat and the bank compensates for this provision with a lower interest rate to offset this risk. But it isn't the individual transactions that make banking feasible, but the massive flow. It's a little like insurance. The insurance providers are betting that only a small portion of the client population are going to be making "withdrawals" at the same time, allowing the other deposits to cover those transactions. I would also point out a minor flaw in your supposition: there is only one depositor. The other is a debtor.

                    Now one can argue about the most effective reserve currency rate. That's a great question that I have yet to see a definitive answer on. Obviously, it is - again - a risk vs reward scenario: the lower the reserve rate, the more money banks can loan out, but the higher the risk of default in the case of a run. The inverse is also true: the higher the reserve rate, the more secure a depositor's funds are, but less money is available to lend out of those deposits.

                    I think the other thing that is hinted at but not specifically identified is that the bank is taking on risk on behalf of the original depositor without his or her tacit approval. That is a legitimate concern and topic of interest. What you are essentially arguing is that the terms of depositing and withdrawal need to be more transparent to the investor/depositor so that one does not have an unrealistic expectation of having access to 100% of one's funds at all time with no penalty. That I believe is a legitimate question.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
                      Sorry, but you, like Dale, are wrong. There are many discussions of this phenomenon - it's not like I made it up.
                      To quote Dr. Joseph T. Salerno of the Mises Institute:

                      "First, fractional-reserve banking is inherently inflationary. When a bank lends its clients’ deposits, it inevitably expands the money supply. For example, when clients deposit an additional $100,000 of cash in the bank, depositors now have an additional $100,000 in their checking accounts while the bank accumulates an additional $100,000 of cash (dollar bills) in its vaults. The total money supply, which includes both dollar bills in circulation among the public and dollar balances in bank deposits, has not changed. The depositors have reduced the amount of cash in circulation by $100,000, which is now stored in the bank’s vaults, but they have increased the total deposit balance that they may draw on by check or debit card by the exact same amount. Suppose now the loan officers of the bank lend out $90,000 of this added cash to businesses and consumers and maintain the remaining $10,000 on reserve against the $100,000 of new deposits. These loans increase the money supply by $90,000 because, while the original depositors have the extra $100,000 still available on deposit, the borrowers now have an extra $90,000 of the cash they did not have before.

                      The expansion of the money supply does not stop here however, for when the borrowers spend the borrowed cash to buy goods or to pay wages, the recipients of these dollars in turn redeposit some or all of this cash in their own banks, which in turn lend out a proportion of this cash. Through this process, bank deposit dollars are created and multiplied far beyond the amount of the initial cash deposits. (Given the institutional conditions in the U.S. today, each dollar of currency deposited in a bank can increase the U.S. money supply by up to a maximum of $10.00.) As the additional deposit dollars are spent, prices in the economy progressively rise and the inevitable result is inflation with all its associated problems."

                      So you see, it's not me that is making up this phenomenon. And it is, indeed, coming out of "nowhere."
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                      • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 4 months ago
                        The original $100,000 never changed, however. It never became two sources of assets on the books - it remains a credit for one and a liability on the other. It remains a credit on the original depositor's books of $100,000. On the bank's books, it becomes a liability of $100,000 upon deposit. When the bank loans out that money, they retain the liability of the $90,000 they loan out, but now gain an asset in the term of a loan or note to the tune of $90,000. The other 10% remains as a liability. The loan recipient or debtor then takes on the liability of the loan amount of $90,000. It's all there in the T accounts. (I'm of course simplifying because at each step you're going to have charges and interest being assessed, but the accounting is all right there.) Even the fact that the debtor uses the money doesn't decrease his liability on the books. All you are doing is transferring money from someone who doesn't need immediate use of it to someone else who is willing to pay a fee to use that money now. That fee is paid in interest payments.

                        What should be noted, however, is that in a real environment, the loan of the money DOES actually affect the real amount of money available for the original depositor to withdraw. That is what I was trying to point out earlier. Bank runs happen when too many people attempt to reclaim the totality of their accounts and the sum is greater than the reserves on hand which represent the leftover deposits not loaned out. That is the game played by the banks: how close to the line can they operate? Can they maintain enough operating cash to satisfy the withdrawal requirements of depositors while charging enough in interest and fees to maintain business operations?

                        No, the real "creation" of money happens in the interest payment. And that can be explained by the additional labor that must be supplied by the debtor in order to meet the terms of the loan. His (or her) labor is being exacted in payment of the interest, but in aggregate, there now becomes more "money" (actually labor value represented as money) in supply in the market. What should be recognized, however, is that the money didn't originate out of thin air, but is actually the value of labor of the debtor being transferred back to the creditor. So the money really isn't being created out of thin air, but by the actual output of people.

                        What the fractional reserve system actually does is directly affect the interest rates of both depositors and debtors. Then the Federal Reserve comes in and charges fees to supply the banks with a kind of backup mechanism for obtaining the short-term funds needed to stay above the mandated reserve rate, which of course they control and charge interest rates for as well. That's the real source of inflation and money supply problems, because the money THEY loan to the banks is ABSOLUTELY fictional. They print it, but it doesn't really represent actual labor. What's also fictional is the FDIC, because the FDIC doesn't actually store money either - they get it from the Feds who just print it!

                        What we need to recognize is that if the banks were left to themselves to manage their own reserve rates and set their own inter-bank loan rates, I think we'd see the reserve rate climb significantly, and I think that depositors and banks alike would - all via standard market machinations - agree on some terms for deposits and withdrawals that would reflect this reality via interest rates. This in turn would power the downstream interest rates on loans (driving them upward). That would also in turn contract the real money in motion in the market and put a halt to inflation.
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                        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                          I think you stopped one step short in your explanation. After the debtor spends the 90k it then appears in the bank accounts of other people. That reserve is then used to create more loans which when spent or deposited creates additional reserve to create more loans (up to 9 times the original deposit), just as Robbie's quote explains. The production/labor of people does not create any money for repayment of principle or interest. It may transfer money from other participants in the economy, but none is created. Unless more loans are made there is not enough money in the system to pay the original loan balance and the interest on that loan. Money is only created by creation of more debt in the current system.
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                          • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
                            Yes, but the balance of accounts doesn't change - each person is STILL using the funds of the original depositor, it's just that at each step along the way there is one more step of interest as another party gets involved and their labor gets added to the pool.

                            I'm not denying the multiplier effect is real. But the balance of accounts doesn't change (it just gets really spread out and complicated) UNTIL the Fed gets involved. The only real wealth being created is as the result of new labor being injected into the economy and represented as interest (or capital).

                            "The production/labor of people does not create any money for repayment of principle or interest."

                            Labor is capital. See Adam Smith. In fact, Labor is the base of ALL capital. Money is just a representation of capital - not capital itself. For an example of this, see our economy UNTIL the early 1900's when the Fed was created. Was the US economy growing from the 1700's on? Yes. Why? Population growth created labor which is capital, which got injected into the economy and grew the economy. But the value of money itself was fairly stable. Then along came the Federal Reserve. Once it started injecting fake money into the system, the value of money was devalued through inflation - a natural result. And the Fed has been "managing" inflation ever since by continuing to inject more valueless currency into the economy to defray the true costs of debt. The thing to realize is that currency is not the same thing as value.
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                            • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
                              Agreed, money is not capital. The original discussion was about money creation, not capital creation.
                              As you said, before the federal reserve act, "But the value of money itself was fairly stable." It was based on gold and silver most of the time, and production of gold and silver itself kept up with the need for money tokens in the economy on average. But the economy day to day wasn't "on average", so there were booms and busts frequently partially because of the token supply not matching the goods supply.
                              That said, if there are not enough money tokens created then the economy suffers from the lack of tokens to facilitate trade (unless the market creates tokens itself, which is legally impossible in the current US economy that gives the power of creation to the sociopathic baking cartel.) For trade to prosper the tokens must increase with the volume of goods produced. The solution to this does not have to enrich banksters by giving their cartel the monopoly power to create tokens to manipulate the economy for their own benefit (and to the detriment of millions of innocent hard working individuals.)
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                          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                            There are a couple here who refuse to accept monetary and accounting principles. And on top of that, are so petty as to down vote those of us who try to educate them.

                            As was said by someone most here seem to revere as a source of all wisdom: “You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.”
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
              Bonds do not "create" money, but fractional reserve banking does (this can be shown mathematically). As to its effect on the economy is a much larger discussion. But you are incorrect that bond issuing is equivalent to fractional reserve banking.
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              • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                Robbie do a little homework. They are absolutely the same thing.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                  Db, please explain how bonds do this. The only way I see any money creation by bond issuance is if the fractional reserve banking system exists and the banking system then creates money when the fiat paid for the bonds is deposited (and spent and deposited with more money created from nothing again and again in every iteration.) Bond issuance only transfers money from one party to another. The only thing it has in common with the frb system is that the interest to be paid has to be created somehow in some form. If it must be paid in fiat 'legal tender' then it can't be paid because it has not been created (unless it is done outside of the bond trading parties.) If the economy expands because of the bond transaction financing a business activity, then there must be a method of expanding the currency supply or there will not be enough money tokens for the economic system. A free market would respond with non legal tender methods of exchange between trade participants.
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                  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                    see above also. A company floats a $1000 bond. You buy the bond, lets say with gold. The company does not hold the gold it uses it to buy equipment and other stuff (not 100% reserve ratio). Now lets say you need to pay me $1000. As long as the company is paying on its bond and looks like it will continue to do so, then I will take the $1000 bond as payment. The company has printed money just like a bank. The bond is just a legal piece of paper and acts just like currency,so they created money out of thin air (or paper or electronic digits really)

                    This was a common game in real estate before they started adding clauses to mortgages that they were redeemable upon transfer of the ownership of the houses. People would give second and third mortgage plus pledge the first mortgage to the new buyer of the house. The seller created money out of thin air in the form of a second mortgage.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                      If your point is only that parties in a contract can create instruments to allow trade, then I agree, but that is not the same thing as creating money as banks do.
                      The banks in fractional reserve system don't own the assets to secure the money they create. The money is accepted because it is decreed as legal tender and only confidence (based on deceit) makes it acceptable in trade. The bond can be exchanged for other property only because it represents real tangible property in an enterprise. There is a massive difference between money created with a tiny percentage of assets backing it and a bond backed by specific property.
                      If you are saying that banking in a free market with real assets pledged for the notes issued is a valuable concept, I agree, but that was not the system that Hamilton intended. He represented the interests of a cartel of bankers and Jefferson recognized that as the antithesis of the free association of the American colonies.We can see the result of opening the door to that system today.
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                      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                        It is exactly the same thing. The bond is exactly the same thing as paper notes. The paper notes represent real assets also. They represent the land, cars, and other property that has been pledged as collateral. The only difference is that the paper is backed up by multiple legal entities instead of just one.
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
                          An IOU isn't money, it is an IOU. You can sell it, but you can't use it for money (and if someone gives you something of value for it, they have essentially purchased it from you). A bond is not MONEY. Saying so doesn't make it so.
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                          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                            all money is an IOU - a generalized IOU i.e., a bearer IOU, even gold and silver. Unless you are manufacturing something with gold or silver, the reason you accept it is to buy other goods. In other words you have a general IOU that you sold something (say wheat) and now you use that IOU to buy from someone else.

                            If you are stranded on a deserted island, your gold and silver have no value.
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                        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                          Sorry, db, not able to understand what collateral you refer to. What land, cars, property and what is the written contract that pledges them as collateral? Do you mean the contact between the bank as lender and company/individual as borrower? Please explain. Thanks.
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                          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                            When the bank makes a loan it takes a legal interest in land, cars, and other property. It converts this legal interest into notes (which is just like issuing a bond). Thus the paper notes are backed by the land or the car or other property that the bank has a legal interest in. If the borrower defaults on the loan, the bank takes the property and sells it for cash.

                            The person taking out the loan is in exactly the same position as the company issuing a bond. The only difference between a bond and the notes is that the notes are backed by all the banks loans, not just the loan to a particular person.
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                            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                              In your example the buyer of the bonds is the lender. He creates no money. He owns assets that he lends to the bond issuer and he gets a promise to repay (the bond) secured by assets of the bond issuer (frequently the assets to be purchased by the bond issuer using the assets of the lender.) The bond issuer is the borrower, not the lender. The lender in the bond example actually owns assets that are used to make the loan. In the frb example the bank has no such assets. The bank creates the "legal tender" "asset" to loan from nothing. The borrower in that case then gives the bank a promise to pay (that is like the bond given by the bond issuer.)
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                            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
                              Once again, you are wrong. Fractional reserve banking allows the bank to hold only a FRACTION of the collateral and loan out the rest. This CREATES new money in that the total system now has more MONEY than it has assets (liabilities) that back that money.
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                              • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                                And the company in the bond example holds no money. Just the assets of the company. The bank is doing the same thing except it is an intermediary. The bank has a legal claim (collateral) that is backing the money.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
                  I buy a $100 bond from you. You now have $100 and I have an IOU for $100 plus some interest. You don't create that interest out of thin air, you have to obtain it from someplace. Math: Your $100 in hand = my $100 IOU. Where was any money created?
                  Please, don't comment when you don't know what you are talking about.
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                  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                    I spend the $100 and you still have $100 bond, which means we created $100. That is exactly what a bank loan is. You pledge your car they give you $100 in notes, You spend the notes. You and the bank have created $100.

                    But in a free marketing banking system the money created is always backed by an asset. If the banks makes bad loans then the amount of money decreases when they cannot be paid back. So the money supply is inherently tied to the size of the economy. Of course we do not have a free market fractional reserve banking system.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
                      It doesn't work that way. Take an accounting course.
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                      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                        Robbie, once again you prove your ignorance. You don't actually make an argument. Accounting does not tell you how banking works.

                        I have had this exact conversation with the Presidents of banks, economists and others and yes this is how it works.
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
                          You are wrong. Down voting me won't make it right.
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                          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                            You have not provided an argument. You have not explained how a bank works. but you say I am wrong. I would say that down voting makes sense. This is reminiscent of your unwillingness to listen how antennas work.
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                            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
                              I gave you two mathematical examples. You are the one who refuses to listen/learn.
                              Don't bother responding, I'm done with you on this thread.
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                              • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                                The money is created because you count your IOU as an asset. I send the money so someone else has $100 and I have $100 of assets balanced by $100 of debt. That means the world now has $200 of money. Bonds are money.
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                      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
                        It is exactly how banking works. Taking an accounting course, which I have does not explain banking at all. You should read book the Assent of Money and then you will understand money and banking better.
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        • Posted by MagicDog 9 years, 4 months ago
          Jefferson and Burr had the anti-Federalist distrust of concentrations of power. Hamilton's plan was to have the National Bank issue bonds to pay down the revolutionary war debt. Pay down the national debt by "quantitative easing". Oh sorry, I meant issuing bonds guaranteed by the central government but backed by nothing. In other words, inflating the currency.
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