Today I stopped Caring….

Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 3 months ago to Government
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Well at least one cop understands how we feel about his profession, but he blames us, not those of his other 900,000+ compatriots who've given us just cause to despise the profession and those that would abuse their positions in it.

By Lt Daniel Furseth, DeForest, Wisconsin Police Department

"Today, I stopped caring about my fellow man. I stopped caring about my community, my neighbors, and those I serve. I stopped caring today because a once noble profession has become despised, hated, distrusted, and mostly unwanted."
SOURCE URL: http://nycfirewire.com/today-i-stopped-caring/


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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
    Sorry, but I don't get it.
    What is this attributing to the entire police forces the actions of a small minority? Is this endemic to the people of the Gulch? This boils down to a collectivist mentality, or to use a simpler term, prejudice. Maybe because of my age and shrinking brain I've missed something. Would someone care to elucidate me?
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      Herb; There are certainly 'good' people who decide to become cops as well as 'bad' people who also become cops. But the job of cops was never meant to be that of tax collector and revenue source for our communities and states, and make no mistake--that is what they've become. If the people they were barging in on with flash bangs and automatic rifles in the wee morning hours were murderers, active terrorists, or even armed robbers, we might not be so upset. But that's not the case.

      We're having to deal with these people who're taught from the first day that they're better than the rest of us and that they're at war with us, and their jobs are to control us with intimidation, weapons of war, and tactics more suited for a war zone than for the neighborhoods we live in. They're given essentially carte blanche to stop any of us at any time for any reason, and then to pursue a 'criminal' investigation of us. They're taught that they're members of an elite brotherhood who will always have their back, right or wrong. Their basic training even includes 'don't hesitate' targets which originated in the military to reduce the numbers of men that didn't fire their rifles on the front line.

      It's not about the 'good' cop being painted with the same brush as the bad cop--it's about the role of a cop in our neighborhood.
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      • Posted by jpellone 9 years, 3 months ago
        Come on Zen. You have to admit that there have to be consequences for braking traffic laws. Yes, they may have quotas but if you are not braking the speed limit or driving recklessly you will not get a ticket. I will bet that the ratio of raiding the wrong house is at least 1000:1. Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes it turns out badly.

        Why shouldn't the police/SWAT have proper tactics to take quick control of a possible hostile area? And yes, sometimes it may be in our neighborhoods... As far as them being a brotherhood and that they have each others back, well, they should. Look at unions, the military, corporations, and many other businesses. Without a team, it just don't work!!!

        It sounds to me that you just paint all police with the same brush...
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          The consequences of breaking a traffic common sense is you're going to have a wreck harming another or his property or yourself and your property. You've then established a tort that you're responsible for. As to police with WAR WEAPONRY AND TACTICS whose job it is to protect us from the force of others, they're not allowed to make mistakes, {Military and war are not unions, corporations, or businesses--they are death and blood) Unless they're willing to accept the consequences of establishing a tort and the resulting punishment that the rest of us have to live under.

          Hostile areas sounds like WARZONE to me. If we live in a war zone, let me know so I can uparmor and prepare. I'm not unfamiliar with such places and the necessary conduct, but if you try to Mi Lai on me, don't expect it to go as easy as it did in Nam, or Ruby Ridge, or Waco. You want to call yourself an 'operator', join up and go through the same qualifications, testing, training, and years that some of the rest of us did. And we didn't even call ourselves operators, (I suspect we'd have done a skivey check on anyone stupid enough to call himself that) and if we'd killed as many as these simpletons do, rather than successfully kidnap them out of their beds and bring them back for questioning and POWing, we wouldn't have had our jobs, even lives, for long.

          And yes, I paint our police with as broad a brush as they seem willing to paint us with and their's appears to be dipped in blood. WE'RE NOT AT WAR. I care not who you are or what authority you claim to have, do not point a gun at me or try to break in my door. I will not accept that from anyone or any group. Treat me with the respect you seem to think I should treat police and we'll all get along. I'm an old man, but the cost you'll have to pay to make a 'MISTAKE' with me is much more than you seem to expect and I guarantee, more than you're willing to pay. I've already got the coffee cup, belt buckle, and ball cap, and yes, I'm still paying for those' heroic' experiences.
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          • Posted by jpellone 9 years, 3 months ago
            So it sounds to me that you believe in anarchy. Let everyone do whatever they want to do. I have the right to do 180 mph on any road I feel like. If I don't kill anyone then it's no problem. What's a stop sign, what's a traffic light???

            Maybe you live in an area such as Germantown near Memphis or the Dominion north of San Antonio but there are many war zones throughout the US. I don't live in a war zone but there are many that do. You make it sound like there should not be a police force and just let everyone do what they want to each other!!!

            You make it sound as if you are ready for war but you also stated that we are not at war??????
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            • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
              If anarchy means a tightly limited and controlled government not intruding into our lives and private property and people do anything they want limited only by the identical rights of anyone else and their own desires, then I guess I could be called one, but that's not what an anarchist is. I'm simply an Objectivist that believes in man's individual natural rights.

              I simply have no interest whatsoever in determining or limiting what you or anyone else does with their lives and actions up to the point of attempting to use or apply force to me or stealing from me.

              You brought up the need for police to control 'hostile areas' and that justifies the war type actions that police partake in and apply to their interactions with citizens. And yes, if someone else make's it necessary for me to protect myself and my property, I am prepared. As anyone should be.
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            • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 3 months ago
              jpellone... yes, only laws and rationale can even stand in the way of you speeding on roads or running stop signs and traffic signals.

              But most of the laws against that stuff came from societal agreement to set up some limits so that folks who want to do those things can, in some cases, be made to take responsibility for their actions, and especially if those actions actually hurt other people. And speeding and running red lights can greatly increase the odds of hurting (or killing) an innocent victim.

              Anarchy is, again, a straw dog thrown into discussions to deflect the discussion away from the concept of personal responsibility and rationale.

              One of my favorite examples used to be the Autobahn in Germany, back when it had NO speed limits AT ALL posted anywhere. Total anarchy.
              I kept getting passed by faster cars because my rental had a huge front end vibration above about 60 mph. I learned to pass quickly before the headlights in my rearview mirror quickly got 'wider' and flashed furiously.
              Then I asked a German friend about the speed limits and accidents on the 'Bahn... He said that there were few problems. If someone went off the road with an accident, they didn't bother to send police or ambulance, just a wrecker to remove the shredded wreck from the field nearby. Survival chances at those speeds were negligible and accidents were often single-car wrecks. So, at one level... no problemo.

              When I have to wait, alone, for a minute or more for a red light to change, I occasionally will, With Extreme Caution, go through the intersection. My stepson-lawyer told me that I could claim to have assumed that the signal has sustained some kind of electrical or mechanical failure if no cars had come through the intersection on the crossing road during that period. I've probably done that dozens of times.
              But VERY carefully. And never been caught, ticketed or involved in an accident.

              But if 'everyone' did that 'all the time' for 'any reason,' it Would be anarchy and Very Dangerous, and you should bet that folks like me would rarely, if ever, run those lights or signs.

              Or, as I've learned over the decades, the 'right answer' is often "It Depends."
              :)
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              • Posted by jpellone 9 years, 3 months ago
                My best friend was killed on his motorcycle because some woman ran a red light at 10:30 pm. He had the green light and she turned left in front of him and he hit her broad side. Killed him instantly. She didn't even get a ticket even though she admitted to running the light!!!!

                You are missing the point that without the law there would be anarchy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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                • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 3 months ago
                  jp, the law against running the red light WAS already there; the LAW didn't protect him from being killed.

                  One of my co-workers, dozens of years ago, was killed by a repeat-offender drunk driver as she was returning to work from her lunch hour.
                  Beautiful, successful young girl. Just graduating with a degree, had a great boyfriend, and some bitch t-boned her. I'd complimented her on her looks while walking in to work that day. By early afternoon she was dead.

                  And the LAWS (i.e., LACK of 'anarchy') were also 'on the books already' about drunk driving. The t-boner-bitch was estimated at roughly 60 in a 35 zone.

                  It's not the laws or lack thereof; it's people's behavior! Laws may lead to punishment, and SOMETIMES they discourage people from doing stupid things, but they are NOT primary means of 'danger prevention.'
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                  • Posted by jpellone 9 years, 3 months ago
                    Sorry about your co-worker.
                    The laws will only do so much. People sometimes choose to not follow them. Could you imagine the anarchy if there were no laws? At least the laws rein in most people.
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                    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 3 months ago
                      nope... still disagree. the laws, imnsho, don't rein in anyone unless you believe that laws actually prevent folks from doing stupid things.

                      Sort of like the belief that the threat of Capital Punishment 'keeps people from killing people.'

                      If anything, those laws 'prevent' people who wouldn't commit that kind of crime in the first place and have no effect on the ones who would anyway... whether the crime is murder or running red lights and stop signs.

                      That's what I meant in my 'confession' that I DO 'run red lights' but ONLY when it's safe, imnsho, to do so, AND the light appears to be malfunctioning.

                      Laws are created as reminders in society for 'things to Don't Do.' If you say they 'rein in' people from doing bad stuff, you'd have to then quantify what percentage of participants ARE 'reined in' and what percentage are NOT, as well as WHY...

                      Whole 'nother discussion... :)
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 3 months ago
        Twenty years ago I had cause to deal with the police due to a tragedy. My experience with the police at that time, was very positive. I'm finding it hard to reconcile that with what you describe. If I take your word for it, things have rapidly deteriorated in twenty years.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          Herb; I as well have had tragic causes to deal with policemen and have had some good experience. I hesitate to call in positive. But I've also been the victim and the reporter of a problem, resulting with having guns pointed at me and being threatened. Policing has changed in the last twenty years. These aren't the cops of our younger years anymore.
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      • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 3 months ago
        Zen, have you heard the old saying, "Tell me how you're going to measure or reward me and I'll tell you how I'm going to behave"?

        So you and the others blame the POLICE for acting the way they're REWARDED for acting, without asking Who is DOING that rewarding and WHY they're doing it and How?

        I thought this was a group of objective, rational people here!

        As I've said too many times before, here and elsewhere.... the root cause of the 'issue at hand' is virtually NEVER the first 'reason' anyone comes up with!

        Critical Thinking is Dead in the US. I think it died somewhere back in the '80s.

        Now, back to the regularly-scheduled generalizations...
        Happy Holidays, all!
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          plusaf; the police are an arm of the government we currently live under, the arm that is licensed to respond with force, even to initiate it on occasion. And make no mistake, every encounter (even traffic tickets and selling a cigarette) with a policeman carries with it the threat of force up to and including death.

          I fully understand 'Who is DOING the rewarding and the WHY and HOW'. The root cause is quite simply the collectivist and statist mongering and pandering that we've all accepted in our society for far too long.

          If you have a better answer than that, please discuss.
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          • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 3 months ago
            AND.... re: "The root cause is quite simply the collectivist and statist mongering and pandering that we've all accepted in our society for far too long. "....

            Why have the mongering and pandering been accepted [or even tolerated] 'far too long'?
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 3 months ago
      So long as no other cops will arrest or fight the bad ones, those actions ARE the actions of the entire force.
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      • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 3 months ago
        AND WHY DON'T THEY?
        .... Your first answer is probably not the real cause...
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          plusaf; Provide us with your inestimable insights rather than asking inane questions.
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          • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 3 months ago
            And you think that was an 'inane question'?
            I am an advocate of Critical Thinking, and some folks have labeled my approach as Socratic. Whatever...

            When people pose issues that 'need fixing,' I approach the stated problems NOT with 'my answer' (unless they demand it, but only under duress...) but with the Question Cycle of "well, why DOES THAT HAPPEN?"

            The 'problem' as I see it, is that 'everyone' wants The Answer to come from that initial posing of the question. I believe that, in most cases, that's impossible.

            The First Answer to "Why?" is nearly always simple, easy and wrong.

            Why Things Go Wrong requires, in my NEVER so humble opinion, the Repeated Asking of "Why does THAT occur" until you get close to what might actually be a Root Cause of The Problem.

            Why do people steal?
            Because they are poor and need stuff.
            Why are they poor?
            Because the system screws them over.
            Why does 'the system screw them over'?
            Because it's designed to do that.
            Why is it designed to do that?
            Because it's run by money-grubbing rich folks.
            Why do MGRF's run it?
            Because they have money and power.
            Why do they have money and power?
            Because they inherited it or have political pull.
            Why do they have political pull?
            Because our political system is built that way.
            Why is it built that way?

            In my experience, unless one or both sides of that Why-Because 'dialogue' deliberately try to avoid finding Root Cause, a rational give and take on that WILL get close to Root Cause in no LESS than about six iterations. And those are the Easy Issues.

            Some month or so ago, I engaged my step-grandson in such a discussion on a subject he'd inquired about. We went, according to his count, something like ELEVEN layers down and still hadn't found Root Cause, and it wasn't because we weren't both trying to find it.

            The issue was, in Reality, just That Complex as to require that kind of in-depth search!

            I'll now go back up the thread a bit and demonstrate how my questions could be applied to some of the 'answers' AND questions above.

            Thanks for participating and inspiring.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 3 months ago
    Your profession stopped caring a long time ago. Police are just a paid extortion arm of the government. If you were serious you would have retired in protest over Civil asset forfeiture laws.
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    • Posted by hattrup 9 years, 3 months ago
      True. The civil asset forfeiture laws, along with all the victimless crime enforcement, would work to corrupt almost any honest, well meaning person who was in law enforcement.
      I guess that leaves us with the typical bully attracted to, recruited for, or even allowed in law enforcement today.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 3 months ago
    There is a sickness in our society that is having an effect on all of those who seek out the service professions. Not just police, but the medical and teaching professions as well. The sickness is "diversity", seeking to divide all of us into separate boxes, and make us believe we're all "victims". Because this societal plague makes us suspicious of each other and our motivations, trust and a sense of unity has eroded to the destructive point.

    When you hear police say they feel their main concern is to make sure they come home to their family, it's a sign of the diversity disease. If you feel the police in your community have become the enemy, and you make no effort to bridge that gap, then you're infected too.
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    • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 3 months ago
      Hello DrZarkov99,
      Always providing an interesting angle/analysis and food for thought.
      I am torn on this issue. I see some bad police, but also some good.

      There is no darkness without the light.
      Regards,
      O.A.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 3 months ago
    Buddy, your profession has become "despised, hated, distructed, and mostly unwanted" for good reason.

    That leaves you with two honorable choices: work to reform the profession (including refusing to stand behind bad cops and fighting them instead), or quit it and get an honorable job.

    But you don't have the guts to do either. So be it. You are declaring war on us the people, and we will act accordingly.
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  • Posted by IamTheBeav 9 years, 3 months ago
    I remember the exact moment that I lost all respect for the police. It would have been sometime in 1997. I had just moved from N. Dallas over to Bedford to be closer to my new job and my girlfriend at the time (wife now) who lived in Bedford. It was less than a month after I had made that move.

    I drove a 1987 Black Pontiac Trans Am GTA with tinted windows and a very throaty Flowmaster exhaust. It was a cheap sports car that looked mean, but in reality it was a used, 10 year piece of junk that had been rode hard and put up wet when I got it. I mention that because it is integral to this story.

    I had taken Donna to dinner at Dave & Buster's over in Dallas to eat, play games and shoot the bull with some friends. Neither of us had a single drop of alcohol to drink at any point. It was about 2 a.m. and I was whooped, so I asked her to drive us home. She liked that idea because she was always down to drive that car. Since I drove her and was paying on our date, she did not bring her purse which included her driver's license, but there was no reason for concern because we were both stone sober AND she knew her DL # off the top of her head. For what it's worth, I do too.

    We get to Cheek Sparger Rd. and Hwy. 121. To get to the part of Bedford where she lived, you had to drive about 3 and a half miles on Cheek Sparger at a maddeningly slow 20 MPH. That road also serves as the boundary line between Bedford and Colleyville (a very wealthy suburb). The cops from both department routinely infest that road with radar guns hidden just off the side streets all up and down that thing constantly looking for people speeding. They did then and they still do.

    We knew this, so we crept along at 20 MPH or below the entire freaking way. The speedometer NEVER hit 21 MPH for so much as a nanosecond. We used turn signals, came to complete stops, and all of the other straight out of the driving textbook stupidity that we all ignore every day. We did it all, 100% in accordance with the letter of the law. What's my point, you ask? We never gave the cops any kind of probable cause for ANYTHING. There was no reason at all to hassle us that night.

    By now, I am sure you can figure out that is exactly what they did. Johnny Law pulls up behind us and rides the bumper for a full mile and a half. At 20 MPH, that's 4 and a half minutes, plus the stop sign at Central Dr. So, 5 minutes into this nonsense, I told Donna to turn onto on of the residential streets that fed into and off of Cheek Sparger to let him by, so he'd quit screwing with is. What does he do, you ask? He crawls further up our butts and lights us up to pull over. This is where the fun starts.

    He comes to the window, hand on his gun, flashlight directly in our faces and starts demanding paperwork. Donna gives him her DL number in lieu of the card and the insurance card that I pulled from the glove box. Outside of her not having the actual card to give him, everything is current. Her DL was too, she just didn't have the hard copy card with her.

    I asked from the passenger seat why he pulled us over knowing full well that we hadn't broken any traffic laws at all.

    He ignores me, of course, and demands to know, " What are you doing in my fair city, this time of night, Boy?" in his best redneckified southern sheriff, Buford T. Pusser wannabe voice. That, by the way, is the actual quote that I remember as if it had happened yesterday. Put simply, this jackbooted jagov was trying to intimidate me.

    With that question fresh in my mind, I am getting pissed now. I demanded again to know why he had pulled us over. I told him that we knew he was there the entire time, so we broke no laws.

    This time around, he tells me that he ran the license plate and had seen that this car was registered to someone who lived in Dallas, and again, he asks, "I said, what are you doing in my fair city, this time of night, Boy?"

    I responded with another question. I wanted to know what business it was of his to know my comings and goings AND why in the hell had he pulled us over for a third time.

    This time, let's call him Roscoe, goes into great detail about how the light that illuminates my license plate was out, thereby creating a situation where he was not clearly able to read the plate without pulling us over. It was a highly illegal situation, you see, and he needed desperately to get to the bottom of it. I know you Gulch readers are all smarter than the average bear and have just figured out the same thing I did in that instant. If he read my plates in order to run them thereby determining that the car was registered in Dallas, how did he manage to do that if the plate was dark. After all, there are no street lights on Cheek Sparger and it was 2 in the morning. I offered to let him show me the faulty light on my car which, by the way, had literally passed inspection that week.

    I had just caught him in a lie, and he knew it. I am am freaking livid (continued)
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    • Posted by IamTheBeav 9 years, 3 months ago
      and I am looking for a fight (strictly verbal, of course). This SOB just pulled me over with no probable cause whatsoever, had tried to intimidate me into submission with his attitude, and had lied right to my face. To say the least, I am pissed.

      Does he want to show me the faulty light? Hell no. Do NOT get out of your car, sir, or he will arrest me for (fill in the blank - resisting, obstruction, disorderly conduct, whatever). Now, I am spoiling for a fight. I know I am right, and he does too.

      He hits me with a bunch of horse manure about a hundred things I might be doing. I might be on my way to a street race. I might be dealing drugs. I might be drunk. I might be a Cornish Game Hen dressed up in a human suit. Who knows what I am up to? Therefore, it is up to Roscoe to screw with us and watch the goings on in his fair city. He hits us with all the usual garbage about rapists and murderers and child molesters and Cornish Game Hens that cops always use to justify their actions whenever they break the law, because there is just no possible way that I could understand what he is doing or how hard his job is. Basically, it was the kind of usual talking point baloney they use to get the average starry eyed citizen that "backs the blue" to not look too closely at what they are doing.

      As you have probably imagined by now, I was completely underwhelmed with this nonsense, and I having none of it. I demanded that he either write the ticket for her absent DL card AND show up in court so that I could undress this scumbag in front of a jury of our peers or to piss off and go chase after some chicken thieves of whatever. I only wish that we had smart phones back then, because I would have made this moron famous on YouTube.

      He did mention in his comments once he'd had his lies thrown back in his face that my car, ten year old '87 Trans Am, was just the kind of thing that he would expect some weed dealing teenager to be driving. He was not expecting a recently college graduated guy in his mid 20s who knew his his rights and was willing to fight for them.

      Some would argue that I should have simply cooperated with this guy and politely answered all his questions and thanked him for wasting my time. I, for one, think that is exactly the wrong approach to take when someone takes my Constitutionally guaranteed civil rights and wipes his ass with them.

      So what did I take from this?
      1. If the police are going to just assume that people are criminals by profiling them in one way or another, is it any wonder that people that are being profiled do not trust them either? I'm just an every day, ordinary white guy who was minding my own business, but I got jacked up because he profiled my car, not because of any law that I (or Donna) had broken.

      2. If I can be profiled for my car, then is it really so hard to believe the stories about black folks being pulled over for driving while black? By the way, go to YouTube and watch the video titles "corruption in Kaufman County" if you want a decent idea of Roscoe's conduct during my stop. He never got physical with me, but he acted the same way.

      3. After watching that video, ask yourself how many minorities get jacked up the same way. How many have been beaten down and arrested for resisting arrest, failure to comply, disorderly conduct, etc.? I am not suggesting that the cops never have to deal with this kind of thing, but how much of the bullshlt they deal with is of their own making? How much is a self fulfilling prophecy? They look for crime, and by God, they will find it whether it exists or not. They will make a criminal out of you one way of the other.

      4. With the NYPD's stop and frisk policy (a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment), how many people have been beaten for resisting that tyranny? How many arrested? How many people were made to be criminals because of how a police report was written that weren't criminals when they were approached by the police.

      On conclusion, color me unsympathetic to Lt. Furseth's case. When he starts arresting the criminals in his own department, I may have some respect for him, but unless/until he cleans up his own backyard, his whining rant will fall on my deaf ears.

      When was the last time you ever saw one cop step in to arrest another cop for anything? When Officer Palateo choked Eric Garner to death, did ANY of the other cops there do anything to stop him? Did ANY of the cops there do anything to help him breathe when he complained about not being able to for several minutes? How many of those cops made excuses after the fact about Mr. Garner's weight being what killed him instead of the obvious chokehold applied when Officer Palateo initiated the violence against him. the average cop will stand there and defend Palateo no matter what.

      How about Tamir Rice? Have you heard ANY cop say that gunning that idiot kid down in the way that they did was wrong? I get the stress of a "man with gun" scenario, but if there was no one else in the park that day, there was no imminent threat to anyone. Why, then, does it make sense for a cop to drive up within a couple feet of a suspect with a gun? That seems like a guaranteed way to make sure someone is going to die. It could be the cops themselves, for Pete's sake. If there is no one nearby, then why not pull up 50 yards away, take cover behind the squad car and address the situation with an aimed AR-15 AND a bullhorn? It would be a helluva lot safer for the cops, for sure. It would also give them an opportunity to address the issue of an idiotic kid with a pellet gun without blowing him away 2 seconds after arriving on scene. Also, regarding that situation, why was there only one shot fired by the rookie cop who killed that kid? Wouldn't you keep shooting until the threat was completely eliminated? One shot only sounds like he recognized his mistake only after fatally shooting that kid. Why didn't the other officer shoot if the situation was life threatening? Even better, why did neither officer lift a finger to render any kind of first aid while Tamir Rice laid there dying? It likely wouldn't jave helped, but they didn't even try to help that kid. By driving up within 10 feet, getting out screaming with guns drawn, the cops guaranteed that someone was going to die that day, and it could just as easily have been them. More to the point, why is it that NOT A SINGLE COP has questioned how they handled that situation? Every single one of them that I have heard has defended their handling of that call and the use of deadly force. I am not the kind of idiot that expects a cop to discern the difference between a pellet gun and a real gun or anything stupid about shooting it out of his hands. I am the kind of guy that wonders why you wouldn't address the situation from a safer distance than 10 feet away using a better weapon than a handgun from behind cover.

      When Lt. Furseth is willing to address this kind of thing in his own department, I might start to give a flying crap about his opinion, but unless/until he does, he can save his screed for someone that doesn't know better.
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      • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 3 months ago
        My incident was with a state trooper not too many years ago. It ended with him trying to find anything he could to write me up for, and failed. I think it was the bumper stickers that made him stop me at all. He even had a toothpick in his mouth which he had to talk around. I suppressed my reaction to that rather well I thought. He finally let me go without any citation for anything. Still have a few chuckles over that one.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
        Damn, don't hold back so much the next time you comment. But you do have it right.
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        • Posted by IamTheBeav 9 years, 3 months ago
          Dunno what to tell you. I have been known to swat flies with a sledgehammer from time to time. Depending upon who you ask, this is either one of my better qualities or my worst. It's a big part of the reason I don't post here much. I've never been a fan of glib one liners in an echo chamber, and I have better, more productive ways to spend my time than editorializing on every topic that drives me crazy in the world. This particular topic, though, just happens to be one of those hot button issues for me that is guaranteed to suck me in pretty much every time.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
            Please don't misunderstand. I for one appreciated your comment. You have obviously given the matter serious consideration.
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            • Posted by IamTheBeav 9 years, 3 months ago
              Zen - We're on the same page. I didn't take your comment as criticism at all. I think my comment and its tone was a combination of two things. 1. I had something to say, and 2. I am not bashful about hearing my head rattle when I am convinced that I am right about something.
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 3 months ago
        I've experienced similar. There's a real alpha male thing that goes on with these guys. I'm 6'1", about 230, and I box (even into my middle years). I've had to talk down cops a few times, calming them down so I could get home. Sometimes they get really wound up. I understand that many of them are on roids and I'd believe it. Actually, I think it's probably an epidemic.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
    My wife is a nurse, and so "caring" is a critical part of her profession. Most of her colleagues have either recently shrugged or are about to do so. We are not quite able to afford to have her retire, although it wouldn't be too hard for her to find a position that she would get paid less for, but be able to provide a better quality care.

    Five years ago her floor won a nationwide award for being in the top 2% of its kind in the country. Their reward: an increase in patient load from 4 to 5. Now occasionally she has to take care of 6 patients. Then yesterday came the straw that may have broken the camel's back. To minimize the likelihood of bed sores, two nurses on her floor at a time spend one hour per 14-hour shift turning patients. Why the hell is this not being done by techs? Over 50% of the techs have shrugged. This could easily be done by a couple of homeless guys just down the street from her hospital, but no, the hospital can't charge for that, and the homeless wouldn't do it anyway because they get their three squares via government welfare and their medical care paid via Medicaid. 15% of her patients are unappreciative Medicaid patients who act like they are entitled to cruise ship service.
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    • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 3 months ago
      Reminds me of the attitude of the folks who came into the welfare office where I worked prior to retiring. Attitude of entitlement. Same as the Medicaid patients your wife has to deal with. And, never enough nor quick enough.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
        Being poor is no crime, but being poor, lazy, and spoiled is the norm now, rather than the exception. When I was young, there was a stigma to being unemployed, let alone being homeless. That's not true anymore.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      So j, are you equating the cop's attitude and work with that of you wife's? I'm not sure I get the point of your comment.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
        I think you did get my point, Zenphamy. The cop sounds like his efforts are no longer appreciated and is ready to shrug. Other than getting the appreciation of my family, my wife feels the same way.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          j; the difference I see is that your wife is probably earning appreciation, while I don't think the cop is earning his. It sounds more like he's expecting appreciation because of his position, rather than his contribution.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 3 months ago
            My wife doesn't feel appreciated at her work anymore except by her immediate boss. The patients and their families act like they are her only patients, when they're not. The bureaucrats in charge of her hospital that took over when her hospital got bought out by a company from outside the county are universally hated by the employees and the patients (and their families). The Six Sigma program that the new administration tried to put into place succeeded in alienating just about everyone involved. Part of the reason for this "failure" is that there isn't a whole lot of incentive to be cost efficient because hospitals' profits are dictated mostly by either insurance companies and/or Medicare.
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            • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago
              Six Sigma always fails if you don't implement from the bottom up. That is where the work is done, the top is excess weight.
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
                Well, it really needs to be bottom up and top down. Oftentimes the workers feel their efforts are thwarted by upper mgmt. The real roadblock is middle management. They got to where they are doing things a certain way. When you try to change that way, they feel threatened. You need top mgmt to be involved to ensure that those middle mgr's don't cause the changes to fail. But, yes, you need the workers to buy in - which most of the time they will if it makes their jobs easier and less hassle. (It will fail miserably if at the end of the day all you do is lay some of them off). Just my humble opinion after doing this for 20+ yrs.
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                • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago
                  I agree completely Robbie.

                  The bottom is where too many projects fail though. Management often (not always thankfully) has a tendency to think they can issue orders and demands and get exactly what they envision. But in reality since so many of them have rarely if ever done the work they are trying to manage, the instructions leave a lot to be desired.

                  If the workforce buys in, they will get it done anyway, and help correct the procedures. But if they don't buy in they do what they are told and things wind up worse than before the project started.

                  Six Sigma is very much a team effort, and buy in is required at all levels.

                  Unfortunately too many people cause the projects to either have problems, or flat out fail when they get defensive, or try to control things about which they are clueless. And you are right, its usually the middle that goes wonky on you.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
              Too true j, but I'm just not sure how that applies to our 'caring' policeman. Bureaucratic administrations dictated by government regulations trying to apply something like 6 Sigma is like asking a 1st grader to paint a sistine chapel. God how they love their new words.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 3 months ago
    totally emotive. NOt one fact presented in the article. great stump piece. should run for office
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    • Posted by H2ungar123 9 years, 3 months ago
      "A once noble profession has become despised, hated, distrusted and mostly un-
      wanted" sounds like a "fact" to me, although
      a pretty sad one. Who would you call or look
      for should you be in danger? Your Mother?
      Your neighbor?



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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 3 months ago
        H2, the facts are this. Violent crime is a dramatic freefall. Police killing civilians is at a decade high and going up. Police deaths are low. People don't trust police because they use force to to get respect when they do not need to. Roadside body cavity searches, forced highway "checks" illegal searches, seizures where property is never returned. In fact, civil forfeitures are included in budgets as are traffic tickets. Today's police are not the police of my childhood.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          But they are the ultimate development of any society that has police that ever are allowed to do more than to protect all rights and have the identical responsibilities as the rest of us.
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        • Posted by H2ungar123 9 years, 3 months ago
          khalling, today's police are not the police
          of my childhood says it all.
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          • Posted by NealS 9 years, 3 months ago
            Would it be inappropriate to say, perhaps, today's criminals are not the criminals of my childhood?

            When they can't recruit enough police will they be able to draft them into service? What happens when we do the same thing to our military, make them out to be the bad guys?
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            • Posted by H2ungar123 9 years, 3 months ago
              Oh Puh-leeze!! Today's Moms aren't the Moms
              of my childhood; today's Churches aren't the
              Churches of my childhood; today's movies
              aren't the movies of my children; ad nauseam! For that matter, today's world isn't etc.etc.etc.
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      • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 3 months ago
        How about taking personal responsibility? The only real purpose of the police is cleaning up the mess after it happens. Sure having a department can be a detergent but will never stop most crime. One must be in a position to protect themselves.
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      • Posted by Animal 9 years, 3 months ago
        It is an opinion. It may be an informed opinion, but it's still an opinion.
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        • Posted by NealS 9 years, 3 months ago
          I didn't read it as an opinion, but more of his expression of frustration with what's getting the media attention. Think about having a job they pay you to do but don't want you to do it. Damn, it's a good thing I didn't take that job with the LA County Sheriff's Department in '69.. Most (some) of us would shoot a whole lot more bad guys as our adrenaline goes up. I'm not saying there aren't bad cops, and there are bad soldiers, bad mothers, bad fathers, bad kids, and bad criminals too.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
      It was meant to be emotive. While I know that most of us here value reason, I would like for those charged with protection to have a large amount of emotional "caring". Otherwise, all we have are jackbooted legally sanctioned bullies.
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  • Posted by samrigel 9 years, 3 months ago
    I am not really buying his rant although I understand his frustration. The slogan "To Protect and Serve" sound awesome but the police can do neither. I often have that discussion with my friend and retired NYC Police Officer. Only the individual can and should take the responsibility to protect themselves. In order for the Police to protect there would need to be a cop in every home and vehicle............WOW talk about "Police State". I believe in the Police and their thankless job of attempting to keep the peace in ALL communities. But when a Judge is caught driving while impaired the cops are demonized and if they miss the thugs shortly before an home invasion they are demonized. For the Police it is never a win-win but always a lose-lose!
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 3 months ago
    De Forest is a rather small town, north of Madison, WI (I've actually been there). It is a town that one might think reminiscent of Mayberry, but with paved streets. To have a police officer from such a community express this type of perspective may provide insight into the morale of police generally.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 3 months ago
    I think it is tragic that a police officer has to write an article of this nature. His reality is he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. here is proof of the statement. I told a liberal friend about the police office who stopped the black women who stole a dozen eggs. the officer was white. in stead of arresting her he listened to her as she said she needed for her 4 or 5 children. so he used common sense in my opinion and paid for the eggs and I think other groceries. then many more people contributed food. the liberal friend didn't see it as I did a wonderful gesture by a human who happened to be a police office by profession. they said well it is only one that doesn't show all of the bad that they do. I do believe that there are thousands of police officers who do comparable things that do not make it to FOX news. the point is it does not matter to the liberal, it is always NOT ENOUGH. Not all cvops are bad guys.
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  • Posted by jimslag 9 years, 3 months ago
    I live in a small town and I see it in my local Police Department. I deal mostly with the Sheriff's Department as I live just outside the city limits. However every year the Police and other local law enforcement departments put on a show of all their gear. I see Police with their camo gear in front of their humvee and MRAP, showing off to all the kids. The local AFB has their helicopter and Osprey on show along with drones that they train with here. The State Police are right there with their helicopter and other toys also. It seems as if the different departments all try to outdo each other, but they all work with each other in the local drug enforcement operations. I spent 21 years in the military and sometimes I wonder where all this equipment was when I was in as they are better outfitted than we were in the 90's. As for cops, not all are with that attitude. My local Sheriff is great and his deputies are awesome. Definitely in tune with what their duties are. Maybe it has to do with the Sheriff being elected instead of appointed.
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    • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 3 months ago
      when 0 campaigned the first time he said he wanted a civilian police equipped like the military. never thought he meant at the expense of the military but we now know that is what he intended.
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  • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 3 months ago
    Zenphamy: While I think many of your points are accurate and they represent a partial reality- that of the underbelly of the police, the "dark side" if you will- I am however, bewildered by what appears to be your total condemnation of ALL policemen.

    I must say though, that if your statement on, "...even the honest, well meaning policemen are guilty, and probably more so, for joining the police force...", this is so far reaching so general that it encompasses everyone and every field and condemns all. There are terrible teachers poisoning the minds of our children with dangerous liberal, leftist extremisms- are all teachers to be condemned? There are judges entrusted to impart justice without malice and vengeance and yet many are more guilty than those who stand before them- are all judges to be condemned? The same for doctors, lawyers, politicians...
    We are all guilty of imperfection, of oversight, of overreaction, of lack of courage, of empathy....

    As I stated, I respect many of your points, but for the sake of application, to avoid hypocrisy, to be congruent- your statements, your beliefs cannot remain relegated and applicable only to the police. One can be so angry, so blinded by emotions, as to suffocate the light and destroy the seed of truth.

    "One can strike a match and give light to the room or burn down the building".
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      JC; I appreciate your thoughts on the matter and you're very right about those others in our society that are permitted by us to poison the minds of children and judges as well as many others. But, yes I condemn those within such systems or with such responsibilities that are individually honorable, ethical humans that don't stand up to the wrongness, even criminality they work with and see on a day to day business.

      Taking principled stands are the only way that we can maintain our freedoms and rights against those in our societies that wish to deny such. IMHO
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      • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 3 months ago
        Zenphamy: Well said. I concur with your statement that individuals should denounce the injustices, the unlawful actions that occur within the fields they work and participate.
        It is a responsibility that, as you say, would preserve the freedoms and rights of our society.
        Thank you for your passionate responses.
        JC
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  • Posted by Im_J-hnG-lt 9 years, 3 months ago
    To all contributors:

    Good discussion.

    Seems that the core issue is one of individual character; principles, values, motive & intent.
    These are severely tested when individuals find themselves in corrupt environments and especially where personal health & safety are challenged.

    The underlying principle of 'Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.' seems appropriate. This can be demonstrated by what I refer to as the 'Crossing Guard Mentality'; Notice how when a child is given arbitrary authority or 'power' to 'control' others that privilege of 'office, rank or title', generally speaking of course, tends to be over emphasized if not abused for the amusement of the individual who holds that position based on the immaturity of that person. True as this principle may be, it does not apply equally to all.

    The individuals character is essential in the employment of their authority. The character of the individual is revealed in the manner in which he speaks and acts in his relationship(s) with others. An individual who has experienced the influence of 'flawed' or 'healthy' character in parents, peers, teachers, mentors and other 'heroes' is likely to develop a similar character in himself. If he at some point is able to develop a significant degree of 'objectivity' in regards to his own character, there is the possibility to make a more conscious decision on the content of his character; principles, values, motive & intent.

    If you are a sovereign individual aka John Galt, you not only understand, but have assumed full 'authority' and responsibility for your person. Most of us have some need or desire to interact with others, so the idea of being totally independent and self-reliant is impractical. Even John Galt needs and wants other (like-minded) individuals to join him in his 'shrug' to Galt's Gulch. But the principle of responsibility for ones character and actions are the key issue.

    Prejudice, over-generalization, stereotyping, bias & bigotry are products of intellectual laziness or where expediency does not allow thorough investigation prior to response. It seems that a reasonable level of prejudgment based on prior observation and/or experience is appropriate where expediency is necessary.
    The mistake in judgment and reasoning occurs when one becomes lazy or unwilling to judge a situation on its own merits, a new investigation rather than simply applying ones prejudgment.

    In my humble opinion, it is always appropriate to question ones legitimacy of authority based on their character. Character means more than any title, certificate or demeanor. A legitimate authority is one based on sound character with unselfish motives and without intent to harm in any manner.

    When legitimate rules & regulations (laws) which have been adopted are applied and enforced with other than the intent with which they were established, they are being abused in some manner which is not for the general health & safety of the individual or the community, but most likely for the profit & amusement of the individual who by doing so is a fraudulent and treacherous person who must be appropriately dealt with by his associates if we are to preserve a civil society.

    I welcome your comments.

    Best regards,
    John Galt
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  • Posted by H6163741 9 years, 3 months ago
    Zephany, if I'm reading your earlier (about 2 hrs ago) comment correctly, you are saying that only dishonest, corrupt people should become police officers????
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      H6163741; I think I've located the comment you're referring to and I apologize if I wrote it in such a way that you could gain that interpretation from it. That was certainly not my intent nor my belief.

      My intent was that I would like to see honorable, ethical, and virtuous men become policemen and go into their forces and return the entire force to what we expect of them, with pride. A system that protects it's own over the rights of the citizens that have granted them the limited power to apply force in the protection of the citizenry as a whole and retributive force against those that have violated the rights of those citizens, yet teaches them that they are at war with those citizens, demands that they enforce the outright thievery (civil forfeiture, traffic citation quotas, etc), and rewards their 'mistakes' that we see as abuse and wrongful death with immunity from prosecution is corrupt.

      The honorable, ethical, and virtuous man that finds himself within such a system, supporting and defending those that do wrong as well as laws that he knows to be wrong--that then does nothing to correct the system while waiting out his retirement and pension time--that's Hitler's SS troops and police. Individually with his family and maybe neighbors he might appear to be such an honorable, ethical, and virtuous man probably even loved and respected--but he's not worthy. He is as corrupt as the system he works within, supports, and defends, or he's a puppet fool. Just following orders and doing my job are no longer justifications or excuses.
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  • Posted by H6163741 9 years, 3 months ago
    How can we expect police officers to properly perform their jobs when they must constantly be in fear of being sued, jailed or worse. People who obey the law don't get hassled by the police, so here's a thought- Don't break the law! BTW Chris Rock has a very funny video about this called How To Not Get Your @ss kicked by the Police.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 3 months ago
      They're immune to any of those threats now, and the result is the arrogance and bullying they display on a daily basis. It's about time they WERE constantly in fear of being sued, jailed, or worse. It's the only thing that just might slow them down.

      If even that doesn't work, then we'll have to think about sending them all home and learning to defend our own families.
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  • Posted by waltmills1 9 years, 3 months ago
    It is disturbing to see so many stupid anti-police comments. Policemen have a difficult, gut wrenching job, and deserve respect from those they protect. They deal with the dregs of society, Now they are under attack. Both Michael Brown and Trevon Martin have been elevated to sainthood, and the truth about their backgrounds hidden. Michael Brown assaulted a officer doing his duty. Trevon Martin assaulted a neighborhood watch volunteer protecting the neighborhood where he lived. Both attempted to get the officers gun and were killed. Had they behaved properly both would be alive. Brown probably would have received a slap on the wrist by the court system and would have continued his punk behavior. Trevon Martin probably would have continued down the path he was on and would have wound up in the court system.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      When it reaches the point that we are expected to respect and accept authority from those that just hold a position in government rather than demand that respect be earned and authority be granted and limited to only that necessary--then we live under tyranny.

      It might well be that the police that have a difficult, gut wrenching job have that as the result of their working to reduce and eliminate the individual rights of those they are meant to serve. The police under Hitler probably had much the same complaints.
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      • Posted by waltmills1 9 years, 3 months ago
        When you refuse to respect and accept authority from those elected to govern us or enforce the law, you have anarchy. They do not work to eliminate the individual rights of those they serve. Their jobs is to maintain law and order The unfortunate deaths of lawbreakers who are too stupid to behave in a civil manner when confronted by a police officer, or member of a neighborhood watch, does not justify rioting, burning of autos and building and looting. Those engaging in these actions are criminals and should be dealt with as such. Peaceful protest is okay as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others.
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    • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 3 months ago
      No offense, but that sounds pretty strawman to me. Why should my rights be violated if there are thugs elevated to sainthood?

      I started a neighborhood watch for my hood. One of few rules - no guns, ever. I started it long before the Trevon incident too, about 7 years ago. Just observe and report. It cut the crime way down.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
    Zen, I disagree. . the vast majority of law enforcement
    people are good and take their difficult role as target,
    gun-toter and freedom-limiter (by law) quite well.

    please cut them some slack. -- john

    p.s. did you see the fox report yesterday about the
    police who worked these little miracles by stopping
    someone, learning in conversation about a Christmas
    wish which they could not afford, and then within 10
    minutes' time, granting them that wish through the
    collusion of a shadow team listening in, at the toy
    store or department store?

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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      A law that limits freedom is no law unless there's a victim and damage. As to the Fox report, altruism one day a year is often used by those that oppress the other 364 days.
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      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
        of course, it doesn't hurt me much that my freedom
        to shoot my friendly neighbor is curtailed....... -- j

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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          Yes john, but I on the other hand won't shoot him unless he's already shot at me or is attempting to shoot me. That's not freedom, that's self protection and is an individual right by nature.
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          • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
            ok, then, it doesn't hurt me much to drive at 55 on
            the road when I'd really love to go 90. . I have done
            115 for hours on a harley, and, well, no ticket. . but
            no traffic, either. . got a ticket for 50 in a 45. . paid
            the dues, gladly, because it's like Mom enforcing
            my saying "Yes, ma'am" to a neighbor -- social
            courtesy. . society imposes courtesy rules, and
            I do not fault the enforcers for the nature of their jobs. -- j

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            • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
              And again john, I really don't care if you drive 90 or 115 until you damage another or their property and then I,ll expect the government to enforce the tort punishment. Otherwise, have a good day and continue to be responsible for your actions.
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  • Posted by gafisher 9 years, 3 months ago
    I first received a copy of this from a family member in law enforcement. His comment was only that the "custodes" (see Juvenal via Plato) whom he knows and respects don't take off their duty when they take off their uniform. I honestly do not understand why (and for virtually none of them is it "power") anyone pursues so thankless a calling, but no society, Randian or otherwise, can survive without reasonable laws, and unbiased law enforcement.
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  • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 3 months ago
    A small minority of police officers break the law.
    Compared to the general public that break the law the percentage is TINY.

    That's why it's news - because it's UNUSUAL.
    You never hear about the shootings of minorities in urban settings. It's not news - it's statistics.

    From that minority, like any bigots, we generalize to ALL police.

    Yes, you heard me - bigots.

    That's what bigotry boils down to: Generalizing from the individual to the entire group, or group to the individual, unjustly attributing qualities that they may not have, whether good or bad.

    It's bigotry, and police have become one of those professions, like teaching, where good-hearted people are have decided it's not worth the effort and more and more of them are leaving, avoiding the judgement of the public for things they never did and would never support.

    No crime committed by a police officer gives us cause to "despise a profession". That's something we choose to do by extending their acts unjustly onto all the other other officers.

    The officer in this article has finally given in and joined the bigotry.

    And those of us who stop and say, "Thank you," when we see an officer are forgotten, as are those officers who haven't given up and who see the haters of police, the officers who give up, for the minority they are.

    And it's up to us to point them out as a minority, or the bigotry will grow.

    Choose.
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    • Posted by IamTheBeav 9 years, 3 months ago
      You mention that only a small minority of police are criminals. I'd agree with you to a point, but that point is extremely important, in my opinion.

      While only a small percentage of cops use unnecessary violence or steal or whatever, the overwhelming majority of police will look the other way. When was the last time you heard or saw one cop outing another cop for the unnecessarily brutalizing someone? When was the last time one cop took the stand to say that, no, Mr. So and So didn't really resist arrest. He merely asked question or two.

      When the rank and file will support pretty much anything and everything including the unnecessary use of force resulting in a needless death, then color me a bigot.

      I see the police as little more than a legally sanctioned, heavily armed street gangs wearing government issued costumes who would rather lie to protect another officer than to tell the truth to help a citizen. If there is ever an us or them situation, the rank and file cop will always choose the us, regardless of the truth.

      If that makes me a bigot, then I will wear that label with pride.
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      • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 3 months ago
        When was the last time?
        When was the last time such an event made the news, hon?

        They don't publicize such things but the internal affairs department doesn't sit on their hands.
        You can see them any way you like, but unless you've seen the records of internal affairs and the efforts they make - you're reacting off of the news as if it is reality and ignoring the evidence that contradicts it.

        Feel free. Any of us who have had an association with police know better.

        There's nothing proud about bigotry.
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        • Posted by IamTheBeav 9 years, 3 months ago
          How often do cops get a smack on the wrist for the kinds of things that you and I would serve time for? How many paid suspensions does it take before I cop comes to learn that beating the crap out of somebody will yield yet another paid vacation?

          With all due respect, you can save your generalities and platitudes for someone that has their eyes closed. As for me, I am paying attention, and I see precious little from the police unless/until audio and/or video recordings prove their guilt beyond any possible doubt. Even then, the punishments cops often face amount to little more than a paid vacation.

          Also, when it comes to bigotry, these cops that you would so blindly defend aren't exactly paragons of judging people by the content of their character, Hon.
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          • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 3 months ago
            Was that reasoning?
            Please point out where I blindly defend anyone.
            Otherwise, please keep your straw man arguments to yourself if you don't want them pointed out.
            That reveals more than anything else - when you defame or exaggerate someone's arguments and then deny your own exaggeration.

            Feel free - your credibility is at stake, not mine.
            My challenge stands, IamTheBeav.
            Show where I blindly defend anyone.
            Or if you have ethics, retract.
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            • Posted by IamTheBeav 9 years, 3 months ago
              You said, "Please point out where I blindly defend anyone."

              OK, fair enough. Earlier, you wrote, "They don't publicize such things but the internal affairs department doesn't sit on their hands.
              You can see them any way you like, but unless you've seen the records of internal affairs and the efforts they make - you're reacting off of the news as if it is reality and ignoring the evidence that contradicts it."

              So, that begs the question. What Internal Affairs investigations are you personally familiar with? You claimed earlier that people, presumably like yourself, that have an association with the police know better. Well, Hon, start naming names, citing specific examples that can be independently verified. If you can't or won't then I'd say your credibility is what is in doubt.

              Why should I take your word for anything based on faith? You claimed some association with the police, so put up or shut up. Prove me wrong, Hon. Give me some compelling reason to think that the average Joe Policeman actually cares more about the ordinary citizen than he does for another cop or his job. Unless/until you can, I won't be retracting anything.

              As for showing your blind defense of the police, I would assert that your default position is to simply assume they are guiltless in general, or at a bare minimum, active in weeding out the rotten in their ranks. You claimed to have some knowledge, so show it. In the absence of specific evidence, I'd say my assertion regarding your blind defense is right on the money.
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              • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 3 months ago
                So unless I reveal personal information you can check on you doubt my veracity on anything I say and feel you can call anything I say "blindly following".

                You have no ethics, sir.
                I don't spend my time debating with such people.
                I owe you nothing and by your own standards you have no credibility yourself.

                I'll leave you to the last word - it's become worthless to me.

                I have this odd propensity for believing in "Innocent until proved Guilty".
                Sad to see that so many of you have abandoned it.

                The police haven't and the evidence backs that up.

                I'd say you're a criminal that got caught too many times and has a grudge accordingly.
                Of course you could prove me wrong by revealing a bunch of personal information so I could check otherwise I'll stay with my assumption.

                Seems reasonable to you.
                I'm done with this site - none of this represents Ayn Rand or Objectivism.
                It's alarmist garbage for the most part.
                It's cheap to hate the government (or an group blindly).
                Takes no ethics at all.
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                • Posted by IamTheBeav 9 years, 3 months ago
                  I didn't say anything about revealing personal information. I asked you to provide publicly verifiable information about the Internal Affairs department within some police force or another cleaning house of dirty cops.

                  Put another way, I asked you to put up or shut up, and you chose the latter. Cool. I win. You lose. Buh bye.

                  As for my identity, I'll play your game. My name is Chris Beavers. I am 42 years old, live in Fort Worth, TX on a street that starts with an L and ends with an A. If you really do have some real association with the police (which I seriously doubt), you shouldn't have too much trouble verifying my criminal record or complete lack thereof. How's that for putting up, Hon?
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 3 months ago
      Two things. Everytime I travel back to the US the presence of police up and down the interstate racing along at 85 mph without their lights on or the stops with in the 100 mile no man 's zone of the border get more prevalent. Have good friends who worked for years on seattle pokice force who confirm they are specifically trained to take the humanization out of situations in order to better perform their jobs. This icludes all officers undergoing training to perform body cavity searches. It is insane. No one stops me on the street and thanks me for my service or productivity. Are they saints before we know how they perform their jobs?
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      • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 3 months ago
        I find the fact that I'm the only one posting positively revealing about the mood of people today.
        Compared to the general population they perform far fewer crimes statistically. That's all I'm saying.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 3 months ago
          we have cited evidence about the corruption of the police. You have made claims. Every civil asset forfeiture should be considered a crime. statistics are stacked. How many judges on the take end up in prison. People are reacting to very real issues. Rand said you have a legitimate right to express outraged emotion when your rights are violated.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
        All societies that have made the transition to statism/collectivism want their police seen as heroes or the super race and then just transition to thuggery. I don't know of any that haven't.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      mckenzie; you're right. I'm bigoted towards anyone whose profession is to assume that they have authority over me until they've earned it from me, who think their job is to 'control' me with violence and punishment and intimidation, who take a simple person to person contact and turn it into a death, who are taught to and proven to lie on the stand in court, who want to wear military camos and boots on the job, who give themselves military titles, and who don't treat us as the 'individuals' that you want us to treat them as.

      They're not officers--they're cops. Their job is to capture and bring before the court someone that violates my natural individual rights, with a proper 4th Amendment warrant in hand when they arrest him.
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      • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 3 months ago
        You miss the point or mean exactly what you say:
        Either you are bigoted toward every honest, legal, ethical police officer on the basis of the behavior of a few dishonest, unethical corrupt officers;
        OR
        You misunderstood what I said.

        Your words, not mine, will reveal which.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
          Yes, I mean exactly what I say. Every honest, legal, ethical police officer that makes himself a part of a dishonest, illegal, and unethical police force and corrupt system is in my view, worse than those that go into the career to be a bully and control freak. At least the bully and control freak is honest with himself.
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          • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 3 months ago
            I can disagree, but I cannot condemn you for lack of ethics.
            You ARE following your ethics - you consider the entire police force corrupt.
            I disagree, but am glad you stand by what you believe - we need more people who do, regardless.

            Thanks for clarifying.
            Keep speaking up, Zenphamy.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
              mckenzie; I'm not trying to say the entire police force is corrupt. I'm trying to say that the police forces we have today that are the force arm of our legal/criminal system have been corrupted to such a point that those with less than worthy ethics and virtue that manage to get into the police, then operate with relative immunity compared to the rest of the citizenry. And somehow those less than honorable, ethical, and virtuous people have managed somehow to rise to the level of convincing others in their profession that they are at war with us and to train their new recruits to think and act that same way (non-hesitation range targets). While violent crime has been going down, in some areas dramatically, police force applications and abuse, have increased with a concurrent decrease in the strength of individual rights.
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  • Posted by flanap 9 years, 3 months ago
    I don't see you asking the question as to "why" he wrote the article? Frustration reaching a fever pitch? I doubt it. Frustration develops over time...something else is going on in this man's life.

    Regardless, it is an honorable profession filled with imperfect (I can say imperfect because I believe we have been given a perfect example in Christ to compare to) men to do a job most do not.
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  • Posted by H6163741 9 years, 3 months ago
    Well, I guess I'm in the minority here. I believe that the problem is with the criminals, and the system that allows them more rights than the officers. Again, I say - Don't like the police? Then don't break the law.
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  • Posted by gwilhelm56 9 years, 3 months ago
    His statement doesn't need FACTS ... it is totally understandable, without 8 paragraphs of Politically Correct exemptions. I saw from his post...
    "I'm Leaving it as I found it ..."
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