Is Immigration really the problem?

Posted by XenokRoy 9 years, 4 months ago to Politics
64 comments | Share | Best of... | Flag

Every time immigration comes up this question plagues my mind.

My great grandfather came to this country in what we would look at today as an illegal immigration. It was then too, but no one enforced anything about our immigration system. While the law said you have to follow this big process the process that was followed was come to the US, get working, work towards learning English and getting citizenship. Usually in that order.

This being the case, is immigration the problem or a symptom of the real problem?

I have my idea on what the real problem is but I would like to see some discussion before I share what that is.

If immigration is not the problem, but a symptom of the real problem, what do you think the read problem is?


Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by Snoogoo 9 years, 4 months ago
    I appreciate you starting the thread as I have been feeling this conundrum as of late. I am conflicted because I have a friend who is an illegal immigrant and I have known him for 10 years. He risked his life to cross a desert with no food or water to get here. He had nothing when he arrived and he did whatever job he could find to establish himself. He has a talent for fixing things like cars and machinery. Sometimes he works 16 hours a day, or he works 24 hour + shifts doing snow removal and he fixes cars on the side. He worked for a small business that became pretty successful and sold to a somewhat larger small business and now he works for that company and makes $18 an hour. He has purchased some equipment and tools and incorporated his own business. He found out that he is actually eligible for a special kind of visa which he is currently trying to gain legal status this way. He has never committed a crime other than a speeding ticket. He obtained a drivers license legally before they started to ask for proof of legal residency which he still has. He rents a house that he keeps in good condition, he doesn't drink or do drugs, and he is an overall good person. He has an accent but has improved his English quite a bit over the years. I may take some flack for this and it is understood, but I would take him over a welfare cheating bum any day. Of course there are a lot of bad illegals, but how do you encourage the good to come and the bad to stay away? You can build a Berlin Wall all along our southern border but people will still get through if they have enough incentive. Some want welfare, but some really want to work and start businesses and be productive members of our society and culture. The question is, how do you separate the two? My great grandfather also came here as an illegal, but he didn't come to receive welfare, he came to work the land. Perhaps if our welfare system were not so pervasive, we would not attract the wrong kinds of people or at least fewer of them?
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      I would argue that from this countries founding until some point in time we had a system that attracted people like your friend into the US, and did not attack the bums. We did not have to separate the two at all, it happened automatically based on the desire of the man or woman who came here.

      What happened that changed that?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
        What is different now is a welfare system that rewards sloth and punishes achievement. Moreover, people are encouraged to sign up for the sloth. Thirdly, people who are from other countries are eligible for welfare benefits without having paid into the system. Finally, to reiterate AJ's point, the immigrants from 100+ years ago immigrated legally. Now we have a system where people who immigrate illegally receive preferential status over those who follow the rules.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by NealS 9 years, 4 months ago
          Instead of money (welfare) we should give the needy what they need, bread, Spam, powdered milk, vegetables, a cot to sleep on, the essentials. If they don't like it they can put forth an honest effort to get out off of 'welfare'. Personally I think it should all be charity based, no government mandate.

          I remember when unemployment money ran out real quick and you even had to stand in line to get it. I stood in that line once in late 1969, but never made it to the window, never collected a cent. I left in a huff and found a great career within a week where I stayed the next 34 years (Thank you 3M). I sometimes wonder what my life might have been like had I made it to the front of that line. At the time I didn't need much to survive. I had a pretty bad attitude, just got home from the Nam and my old job hired me back but had to lay me off the same day. At least I got a little severance to tie me over, thank you Rocketdyne. This is the way the welfare system should work.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 4 months ago
            No. That is why we have problems with immigration in the first place: handouts. I have no problem with people coming here legally and earning their way to the American Dream. I have a BIG problem with people thinking that instead of creating their own dream they have the right to steal mine.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 4 months ago
      I think you may have hit the nail on the head in the fact that when your great grandfather came there likely was no welfare payment. It was work or die of starvation. Of course government intrusion has caused a supply & demand problem too. If it were not for our government, immigration would not be a problem.

      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
        I think welfare is a big piece to the root issue, but not the only piece.

        What has it done to out culture? What other changes have occurred besides welfare?

        Welfare is likely the single largest government intrusion into our lives, and our culture. My favorite quote from Rand "The only difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is time"

        Welfare is definitely part of the root cause, but its just a part in my opinion.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 4 months ago
          I agree it is only part of the problem. That is why I mentioned government intrusion. There are not many things that government touches that does not affect immigration. :)
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 4 months ago
          the culture argument always intrigues me, because I'm not sure I agree that "our" culture is something to preserve more than the freedom. In any culture, limited government, strong property right protections will basically get you the same overall effect. People will lead productive, ingenious lives. I mean there are distinct traditions which are prominent, but how those evolve over time is ok too-people tend to hold onto the customs they feel celebrate life and ignore or denounce superstitious customs which do the opposite. ie, a Jamaican immigrant community in a freer US quits believing in voodoo. But Jamaican immigrants settling in Belize holds onto it because there's little productive opportunity to focus on.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 4 months ago
      All that needed:

      Lethal force on the border
      No welfare services without proof of citizenship
      No ability to take any job
      No ability to rent an apartment or home
      No RIGHT to march in our streets
      No perception as a legitimate faction by our government
      and
      The loss of any possibility of ever attaining citizenship for anyone in your family.

      Perhaps you don't know about illegals dressing up like cops and murdering people in Phoenix (about 10 miles south of my home).

      Whatever happened to sponsoring an immigrant who will work for you while seeking citizenship?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 4 months ago
        Right on! Three-quarters of me is of a very recent Euro mix. I'm all for legal immigration.
        The purpose of controlling legal immigration is to keep out--no, try very hard to--keep out people who will likely harm citizens here.
        I'm tired of reading about illegals killing innocent Americans.
        No more illegals period! Secure the borders.
        I read somewhere that our borders are such a joke that other countries laugh at our utter stupidity.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
    I think changes to our culture are the root cause. Welfare is a big part of this, but other things happened as well.

    Before the civil war it was culturally acceptable to fly your family crest at the top of the flag pole, then your state flag, then the US flag below that. Sometime after the civil war that changed and culturally it was the US flag that went at the top of the flag pole.

    I find that analogy of where it was acceptable to fly a flag to tie very closely with the cultural changes that would eventually make many things that would have otherwise been seen as cultural unacceptable, even unconstitutional, just fine later on. a few are:

    * Welfare. It became OK to steal from one person so long as you gave it to someone in need and you were the government.
    * Social security from something the supreme court said was unconstitutional in the 30ies to something that was constitution in the 60ies, just 30 years later.
    * the US culture accepted the idea that diversity was good no matter what. Diversity is good so long as their is a core common thread. Remove the common thread such as the same language and diversity can take you down a bad road.
    * The common thread that the individual was responsible, intelligent and capable was once strong in our culture. Now its weakened or gone.
    * The concept that a person could be a great as their skills and desires would take them to was unchallenged until 1890 when Sherman law said a man could be to good, to accomplished and if he gets that way the government has the right to knock him back down. Man could achieve great things, but if they are to great the government needs to stop the monopoly he may develop.

    The government did not change all of these things in our culture. We the people did it, and the government is simply enforcing the changes we either asked for, or allowed.

    I would offer that the problem with immigration is not an illegal immigration problem or an immigration problem, but a culture problem. Until we the people change that, no matter what the laws are, no matter what walls are built, no mater what controls are put in place the symptom of the cultural problem will persist.

    To fix this problem we must fix our culture.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 4 months ago
      The cultural changes, or as I think of them, cultural decay are the effect, not the cause.

      Lack of respect of or support of the rule of law, undermines everything else. The rule of law is the difference between an organized "civilized" country and barbarous chaos. It takes time to slide from civilized to chaos so there are many gradations in between. But without supporting the rule of law the slide is inevitable.

      There are defined lawful processes for both immigration, and changing laws you do not like.
      Ignoring the process (rule of law) undermines society as a whole.

      I agree with AJ, on his remedies, it is unfortunate that his list is as much as is practical, since at base they are passive measures on the main rather than active ones.

      The part everyone seems to want to gloss over in the whole discussion is the first word of the label...ILLEGAL.

      Coming here illegally is childishly easy to do, that does not however make it right for someone to do so. Nor should it grant you any rights or anything that can be construed as justification for being allowed to remain.

      Illegals of any stripe incur a cost on society, and it is a cost that not only has been growing greater every year, it is a cost this country cannot afford. And the cost is not merely economic, it is social and cultural as well.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
        The United States is paying a price for some of its citizens actively trying to destroy the rule of law. Once there is no respect for law anymore, either by its lack of enforcement or by its selective enforcement, the society crumbles. That is one of the more important points in several of AR's novels.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 4 months ago
    The problem isn't immigration its ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, that group of people who totally disregard our laws, our private property to sate their own needs. Those people are nationals from another land who have right being here and have violated everything they hoped to attain by coming here whether they acted lawfully once here or not.

    The fault of this situation rests firmly on the US Federal Government who has created a shadowy underclass to appease business? To create a voting block? Very much like the DNC has create a violent and lawless class in the black community, the illegal hispanic community, who has no desire to assimilate and become citizens, is very much beholden to the DNC -their slave masters with economic, not physical chains.

    While being an American who hails from legal immigrant parents I still have no sympathy for anyone in this country illegally AND LOATHE anyone in the Fedgov who offers anything other deportation to these millions of these reprobates.

    I have plenty of first hand experience with illegals.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      I do not really agree with you, and I think you give the government far to much credit.

      First our immigration system has always allowed people to come here illegally. The enforced immigration policy was simply come, learn the language and work. Then work towards citizenship. This practice effectively made that the law.

      This has not been a problem at all for more than 100 years of our countries history. In fact this policy has only started to cause problems since around the 1930's (very minor) and more serious in the 1970s and later.

      Did the government create the underclass to appease business? I do not think so. I think this was an unintended by product that politicians have since taken advantage of.

      Did the government do this to create a voting block. Really you think they had that much fore site? Definitely politicians have and will continue to take advantage of this byproduct.

      I do not believe our federal government has done anything that would show that they have the capacity to plan out and execute any of the things you mention. You give them to much credit, they are simply not that able.

      I also believe that the root problem was not something intended to bring people here in droves that have no desire to work, no desire to be US Citizens and no desire to adopt a culture of individualism. It has done just that.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 4 months ago
        “This has not been a problem at all for more than a hundred years...”
        It’s been a problem since the conception of this country. It took eighty years to get the Washington Monument built because so many people protested the foreigners working on it. The memorial rock donated by the Vatican was tossed in the Potomac River by protestors.
        There has always been a problem when the first wave from a foreign land is made up of mostly young single men looking for work. Think--the riots in Miami when the Cubans came or think the berating of the Irish when they came. Young single men? Of course there are going to be more acts of violence, so sometimes those arguments are justified. Crime rates do go up. When families came, they came in droves and they had a huge impact on society and culture wherever they landed. When too many Western Europeans came, we changed the laws to favor Eastern Europeans, when they too came in masses we revised the laws again. When the Great Depression came we punished the Mexicans. People get scared when they feel the sidewalk --the foundation moving beneath their feet. That’s why people come here--they are scared, that’s why we fear them coming here --we are scared.
        There was a word used to describe my country when I was a kid, I just don’t hear much any more --generous.
        I think there is a difference from opening your door and letting someone into your home, accepting them as family, setting high expectations for their usefulness in your life, from setting a bountiful picnic table out in the yard where you keep the dogs, allowing everyone and anyone to grab and growl at will, not really caring who gets fed just as long as you can say you tried.
        I think we can solve the problem by putting a lifetime ban on any government aid from anyone who comes here (and their children) with the hopes of being a citizen if they came here illegally. Its a trade; it’s a consequence for an unlawful act. Make them citizens quickly, but by way of forfeiting the public funds they would have had been eligible for if they came here legally. It will work much better than any wall or drone program could. If, for any reason this becomes to difficult for them, we can offer them a trip back to their country of origins.


        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 4 months ago
        Give the fedgov credit? All the fedgov need do is ignore the laws currently on the books and everything else falls in line...as evidenced by 20+ million illegal hispanics in this country who the DNC and RNC are heavily courting over the American people who elected them. By allowing people to come into the country illegally - or as O has done BUSSED them in and secretly dispersed them throughout the country - you have families living openly outside the law. Offering them citizenship, as O intends to now, along with a host of welfare services they are already getting, makes them beholden to the Ds. What we have is the fedgov cultivating lawlessness by rewarding it handsomely: health care, welfare, jobs, and, absurdly, a political voice a a faction.

        Again, illegal immigrants begin by breaking our laws, no reward - let alone the honor of becoming an American citizen - should ever be afford them.

        Bracero program - legal temporary immigration for migrant farm workers.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by MagicDog 9 years, 4 months ago
    Lets have an adult conversation on this subject. There are a lot of good people working here without papers but there are a lot of criminals without papers too. How about starting by deporting the known criminals? At the same time, issue temporary work permits to good, hardworking and skilled people after a thorough background check and proof that they are not receiving money from the government. People without papers who do not have gainful employment and are receiving government assistance then they need to be next on the list for deportation. Illegal voting and welfare fraud should be grounds for deportation. Start with the worst on deportations. Start with the best when issuing work permits.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 4 months ago
      One minor detail: by law, those here illegally ARE by definition criminals.

      I don't have a problem with people seeking a better life, but I have a problem when they choose to go around the system in order to do the seeking. They are now prisoners of their own actions which other lawless people will take advantage of them for. You can't promote lawfulness by rewarding lawlessness.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by hattrup 9 years, 4 months ago
    To argue that "illegal immigration" is the problem (vs. immigration) is just a legal agreement - it completely submits itself to the fallacy of authority in the scope of the original post.

    Immigration is a problem in welfare states - illegal or otherwise.
    The fix is to eliminate subsidy (education/health/jobs/income/food etc.) claims all people have on others (taxpayers).

    Barring the likelihood of that - restrict the claims
    for as many people as possible - all immigrants ("illegal" or otherwise) would be a category of ineligible welfare state beneficiaries.

    It is sad that because of our welfare state, we heavily restrict immigration to the US to many hard working, honest people that are stuck in otherwise hostile, horrible environments.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by PeterAsher 9 years, 4 months ago
    What if the employers of illegals were held to be their sponsors and were found to be responsible for all financial liabilities incurred by hospitals, schools and government entities for services to those employees and their dependents?

    The enforcement would be by civil suit and I imagine an attorney or two could be found who would press cases on contingency.

    Wouldn’t cost taxpayers a dime and would be the mother of all deterrents!

    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by JanelleFila 9 years, 4 months ago
    My husband is foreign, so please bear in mind my prejudices (That's my disclaimer) :)

    So many Americans want to blame foreigners for "taking" all the jobs. But my personal experience are that a large portion of foreigners are willing to work at jobs Americans don't want, for less pay than Americans will accept. A foreign person takes a job and is thankful for it. Yes, they might have to work two or three jobs to achieve the "American Dream" but they are willing to do the work. Americans won't take the job, want the company to pay more and give free health care, have the government support them while they wait for a higher paying job to come around, and wonder why they can't get ahead.

    I understand there's a big difference between a foreigner and an illegal immigrant, and obviously this is an opinion with generalizations, but I believe we could learn a lot as a society from the work ethic (and gratefulness) of the foreign culture.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      Thanks for sharing. I agree with you.

      It is my view that we need to remove most immigration laws and get back to what America has been. Come here if you want to be individually responsible for yourself, otherwise there is nothing here for you. The problem with that is our own culture has changed to that which you describe and it must change back to one of individual effort, value and reward if we are to attract only people who share those values.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 4 months ago
    Illegal aliens skip the checks for:
    • Contagious Deadly Diseases.
    • Membership in Groups Seeking the Overthrow of the U.S.A.
    • Drug Addictions.
    • Illegal Contraband (Drugs, Weapons, Dangerous Animals & Plants).
    • Felony Warrants & Records.
    • Membership in Criminal Organizations.
    and much more.

    Why in the world would we encourage that?
    That was a problem back in your great grandfather's time which is why we passed the illegal alien laws we have.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      No agreement there. We use to put all the immigrants on Ellis Island for a month before they could come in, but we did not worry about following the laws that existed then either.

      The fact is we have let people come in from all groups for the entire existence of this country. We did things more intelligently as we did check people out, but we did not stop them from entering.

      The laws were all ready on the books in my great grandfathers time. They were ignored then as well, and there was not a problem with:

      * People coming in to collect welfare (it did not exist).
      * Deadly contagions were stopped because we had everyone sit on Ellis Island for a month - My great grandfather included. The laws were ingored but common sense was used.
      * Drug Addiction - 30 days on Ellis kinda killed the addicts.

      I would be totally game to stop every one that came in for 30 days like we use to, that makes sense. It is completely reasonable but it gets back to the root cause. Our culture will not tolerate doing anything like that any longer.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 4 months ago
        Which is why we have to enforce the laws we have, build a clear fence to limit the danger on BOTH sides of the border and implement a simple program:
        1) Get caught and you get tried.
        2) Sentence is suspended IF you have a country of origin to be sent back to.
        3) Send you back with the understanding that your second time back results in both present and past sentences being applied, consecutively.
        4) Your family, your neighborhood, your work, and your friends all get investigated (who would shelter you?)
        5) Anyone caught for illegal entry would be barred from EVER being a citizen, for any reason.
        6) For every illegal alien from a given country that country is barred that many people from their country entering legally (or perhaps twice as many).

        Illegal aliens are a danger to all of us, particularly to the neighborhoods they settle in.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          1. How are you going to pay for that?
          2. See #1

          What you propose is not practice. Its just as financial impossible as those who think we are going to continue to feed and shelter every person who decides not to work for there food.

          Have an idea we can actually do?
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 4 months ago
    IMHO, sir, the real problem is politicians using the
    immigrant group as pawns in their grand plan to
    permanently take power in the u.s. -- through plain-
    old bribery and subjugation of the dependent class
    which they are enlarging through this scheme.

    this hurts the people coming into this country,
    to effectively prevent them from achieving "the
    american dream" by that subjugation-by-welfare. -- j

    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      I would agree that is a real problem today. However I think the ability to do would be gone if our culture did not protect and pander to those who are here taking a welfare check or working in a criminal society while claiming to be poor.

      If it was starve or work at a legitimate job or face real consequences (deportation, execution...) then the people who came were would not be idiots they could pander to, but people who wanted to work hard and earn what they received.

      Politicians can only use people this way when the people they are using are gaining something from it. If the people that came here came here to work and improve themselves by the sweat of there own brow then no politician could use them. They empower the politicians when the seek to get unearned gain from the politicians.

      It is the culture they come seeking that is the root problem.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 4 months ago
        yes, if they are coming in to find the welfare state,
        then they play themselves straight into the politicians'
        scheme -- sad. . and importing + freeing criminals
        is societal suicide. -- j

        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Ranter 9 years, 4 months ago
    The problem isn't immigration. Restrictions on immigration are very recent. When my grandfather entered the country with my father, then a young boy, there were no immigration restrictions. Immigration restrictions. The first restriction came in 1875, restricting the immigration of convicts and prostitutes. In 1882 came limitations on immigration of Chinese. Also excluded were persons convicted of political offenses, lunatics, idiots, and persons likely to become public charges. The law placed a head tax on each immigrant. In 1885, admission of contract laborers was banned. Provisions were adopted in 1888 --the first since 1798--to provide for expulsion of aliens. In 1903, Immigration law was consolidated. Polygamists and political radicals were added to the exclusion list. In 1907, a bill added people with physical or mental defects or tuberculosis and children unaccompanied by parents to the exclusion list. Japanese immigration became restricted. That was the year my father and grandfather entered the US as immigrants. In 1917, a bill added to the exclusion list illiterates, persons of psychopathic inferiority, men as well as women entering for immoral purposes, alcoholics, stowaways, and vagrants. In 1921 a temporary quota law by nationality was passed. This was the firs quantitative immigration restriction. A permanent quota law was passed in 1924. This bill also established the Border Patrol. Border patrolling and control, principally to limit incursion of Mexican bandit bands, had before then been performed by the Texas unit that later became the Texas National Guard. My father, who was US horse cavalry at the end of WW II, was transferred to this Texas unit and rode border patrol in 1919 and 1920, before his discharge from the Army.

    The problem is not and never has been immigration as such. Controlled immigration has always been good for the country. The problem is how to limit the entrance of "undesirables" -- criminals, those with mental or physical illnesses, and others who would likely have to be supported by taxpayer dollars; and how to limit immigration so that the US labor markets do not become overwhelmed by immigrants. The problem is illegal immigration, and what to do about those who enter illegally.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Ranter 9 years, 4 months ago
      While America was still expanding across the continent, there was plenty of room for immigrants. Once we reached the West Coast, the first legal restrictions on immigration started, with the limitation of Chinese. As the country "filled up" more and more, more restrictions came, until the mid-1900s, when seasonal migrant labor became a "problem." Between harvests, they became unemployed, depending on the public largess to survive. Eisenhower initiated the Bracero Program, a program that allowed the importation of seasonal migrant labor by sponsoring employers, provided they were returned to their homeland at the end of the season. That program worked, and virtually eliminated illegal immigration across our southern border. The Democrats killed the Bracero Program under Johnson, and we have had escalating illegal immigration ever since.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      I could not agree with you more.

      Also thanks for the history around immigration law. I have never looked that closely at it. My ancestor came over in 1902 which would mean that my grandfather would not have been illegal at that time. Dang it, I can no longer say my family came here illegally.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
    Thanks everyone for the discussion.

    I think it boils down to this. At some point we went from individualism to collectivism with strong twist of altruism in the country. If we were still individualist in our culture immigration would not generally be an issue.

    Yes there would be the occasional person who wants to do harm to us, but for the most part those coming here would be doing so to build a better life for themselves, not in the hope to have someone else give them a better life.

    Figure out a way to export the collectivists from our country, really the collectivist culture and import some good old pre civil war American individualism and immigration would not be an issue. Neither would most the issues we face today.

    By enlarge they all have the same root cause. Collectivist mentality and culture. .
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 4 months ago
      Indeed!! But I question, how many of us have the will power and gumption to affect such actions?

      Thanks for posting.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
        History has repeatedly shown us that we will either take the gumption to affect such action or nature will force such actions upon us in a painful and unpleasant way.

        We can either act or eventually be acted upon. We will either collapse as the soviets did, at the Germans did, as the Romans did... or we will change because situations force us to.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
    IMHO the real problem is looking the other way. We can't agree on a set of rules so we have an unofficial policy of ignoring the problem and having an underclass of 15 million people living and working here. No one has the political will to stop the people who are hiring and doing business with them. Politicians benefiting from the hardcore lowlifes who somehow feel less pathetic talking about using "lethal force force" against people coming into the country don't want to lose that vote. So we look the other way, which creates a bigger problem than any direct solution would.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by NealS 9 years, 4 months ago
    I still think we should invade Mexico City, take down the government, and take the country over. That will make our southern border really small and lot further south. Then the SEALS and Special Forces can go in and clean up the drug cartels and we'll have a nice warm place to vacation without the hassle of leaving the country. Everybody's happy, there won't be any reason to come north anymore, we'll all be Americans (or maybe Mexicans). And we can now move south unrestricted, where a lot of our movie stars seem to live. We can make it into 7 States as I have said before, so Obama can get it right. I'm sure he'd tell us he knew that when he talked about them before.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      Being the aggressor and removing free will from others is never the right choice. Taking over Mexico would be doing just that. Taking out the Mexican cartels with full military force after congress declared war on them would be good. If Mexico got in the way of that war with the cartels then they would be taking sides in a declared war, which would change everything
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by NealS 9 years, 4 months ago
        I'll leave the details up to you if we decide to do it. I didn't have much of a choice when I took up arms in Nam, it was kill or be killed. Perhaps that might have something to do with my bold aggression.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          Thank you for fighting. Were you forced to do so (draft) or did you do so by your choice?
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by NealS 9 years, 4 months ago
            I tried to join in 1960 and again in 1962. I was rejected both times for "flat feet" and a "rupture". I got married, bought a house, got a job at Rocketdyne, got divorced in 1966, and almost immediately got a draft notice at age 24. Thinking they wouldn't actually take me, I drove to the induction center, downtown Los Angeles, parked my car in a pay lot, went in the front door, and was ordered to go out the back door and get on the bus to Fort Ord. Had to call my parents from half way up the coast to find my car and take it home. After Basic and AIT, signed up for an extra year to go to OCS, served following year at Fort Sill as Asst S3 in a 105mm Towed unit, went to Nam, as Battery XO of an 8" Howitzer and 175mm Gun Battery in Vietnam. Battery Commander got shot up, I became Btry CO as they had not enough officers to go around. Made if home in pretty good shape, lost some hearing, tinnitus, a little shrapnel (no Purple Heart - just a few scars), a few nightmares (lost 43 comrades from my and my sister unit), VA unacknowledged AO issues (respiratory issues, and Special Needs daughter), went to work for 3M for next 34 years, retired, woodworking hobbyist, build furniture hobby, self learning the piano, mostly classical. That is my life story.

            Actually there is no difference between being drafted and volunteering. Once most military personnel are in, they would not trade the experience for anything in this world. I considered accepting an offered RA Commission and making a career of it, until I met Major Mxxxxxxxa, what an xxxxxxx, I stuck an M16 in his belly and almost killed him. My guys were egging me on, fortunately he walked away and we never saw each other again. That's when I made my decision to get out. I turned down my promotion to Captain.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              Thanks for the post. I found the comment about the draft most interesting.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by NealS 9 years, 4 months ago
                Please elaborate on the interest about the draft comment. You got my curiosity....
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                  "Actually there is no difference between being drafted and volunteering. Once most military personnel are in, they would not trade the experience for anything in this world."

                  I am not at all like this. If I joined because I choose to it would be a grand experience I would not trade for anything. If I were forced to join, even if I had a good experience with it, I would always feel forced. That feeling of being forced into something leaves a bad taste in my mouth and would not sit well with me even if it turned out great in the end.

                  I found it interesting that others were not that way with the draft. I would have likely washed out if drafted because I would not care to try to much. If I went in voluntarily I would do well because I would care about what I was doing. I would have thought more people would be like that.

                  Hopeful that was the kind of clarity you were looking for.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by NealS 9 years, 4 months ago
                    I see your point, but expect it is from your point of view today, not form the 60's. I'd suspect that today I'd probably feel the same way, but then again today I don't see that much patriotism as there was in the 60's.. But then again, now that I think about it, we were divided then too, about half and half. Combat too I think effects one's ideas, after you've been shot at, mortared and rocketed, your outlook on life changes. It especially changes when you see friends not make it. I think I learned a lot about myself in the Army. I'm still a nice guy, but have more doubts about others than I would guess I'd have without the service experience.
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo