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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 5 months ago
    K, this man just infuriates me. I took an oath to
    support and defend the nation, and specifically
    its classified information, and he took a similar
    oath. . he is garbage for violating his oath, which
    endangered and perhaps killed our clandestine
    people;;; we will never know. -- j

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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 5 months ago
      He _is_ defending the nation. Government officials have violated their oath to uphold the Constitution. They are the garbage. Ordinarily one defers to the government on what is classified, with the presumption that the officials must be allowed to make the choice and not be second-guessed. But deference to government is not an intrinsic duty with no context and any individual is morally responsible for what he chooses, together with its consequences for himself and others. The statist situation in this country has become so extreme that it is no longer practical to defer to official channels as the government abuses both its powers and its authority to classify.

      Snowden has said that he saw what happened to others who tried to protest NSA through normal channels such as the Senate oversight committee. They were brutally persecuted, terrorized and suppressed. The government dishonestly denied the allegations, leaving public knowledge in a state of uncertainty and ambiguity. He said that he concluded that the only way to expose the scandal was a massive release of actual documents.

      Snowden has repeatedly said he has been very careful not to release documents exposing specific operations which would endanger legitimate agents and the country, and his colleagues in the press have checked with officials before publishing what they have printed, giving the government a chance to argue why it thinks certain publications should be withheld. That has been the traditional, normal procedure with the press when dealing with leaked classified information, and led to bottling up the scandal for many years. Many details of the Snowden documents have still been withheld.

      Snowden further deliberately left indications of what documents he took and which he did not, in order to reassure them over legitimate concerns that he recognized. NSA assumed, honestly or not, that he took all of them and used that to smear him. He did not take the millions they have claimed.

      Furthermore, the press has been releasing documents that Snowden did not give them, keeping the additional sources private and ambiguous, such as the revelations of spying on the German government. This has led to false impressions that they have all come from Snowden.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
        "Furthermore, the press has been releasing documents that Snowden did not give them, keeping the additional sources private and ambiguous, such as the revelations of spying on the German government. This has led to false impressions that they have all come from Snowden." I missed that. I thought Snowden was the one who did leaked that. do you have a cite for this?
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 5 months ago
          "The US Intelligence Community has a Third Leaker" is in Bruce Schneier's August 15, 2014 newsletter at https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-140...

          I have referred to Bruce Schneier here previously in different discussions. He is a very well known security professional and author of the classic Applied Cryptography http://www.amazon.com/Applied-Cryptograp...

          I don't know what his general politics are or his understanding of political principles and philosophy, but he has been an invaluable source of information on the Snowden affair and what it means, repeatedly displaying great professionalism, integrity, objectivity and knowledge. He understands that NSA has a proper role, but that it is not to spy on whatever it wants to. He has had access to all the Snowden documents and has used his knowledge and background to explain what they imply about what NSA is doing and what its technical capabilities are, the scope and intensity of which are staggering and much more than the general public is aware. NSA has routine capabilities beyond what most people can even imagine. This is much worse than people realize and Schneier is an excellent source to follow.

          You can follow his blog and/or receive his monthly newsletter by email with numerous links to sources. The newsletter is also released as an audio podcast after significant delay. It is read by someone in a rather dry manner that doesn't work too well, but it's an option if it's all you have time for because you can't read it but can listen while doing something else like driving.
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      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 5 months ago
        ewv, thank you for shedding light on this subject
        which I have not seen up to this point. I was not
        aware that there had been any restraint, to protect
        our people. I was not aware that Snowden has
        held back anything for any reason. I was not
        aware that the press has inherently blamed him
        for other releases.

        I come from (1) a background in which your word
        is your bond, and (2) a career in the world of the
        manhattan project, where any betrayal of the
        promise of secrecy leads directly to a nuclear
        Iran and, logically, the annihilation of the west.

        I Will Not Betray My Nation. He Did. . perhaps his
        actions were warranted;;; I will concede that. my
        homework has obviously been deficient.

        Thank You For Your Help!!! -- john, p.e., usaf LC, etc.

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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 5 months ago
          For more see the post nearby in response to khalling's query.

          Watch for an airing of the PBS Frontlines documentary "United States of Secrets" released last June. It reported the government abuse against the people who, long before Snowden, tried to protest illegal NSA behavior by legally means, and reported how Snowden realized that the only strategy that could work required massive documentation as evidence that couldn't be covered over or ignored. The betrayal and the lies have been coming from the NSA officials who abuse their authority against millions of innocent Americans, then do it with a vengeance against those who speak out against them, and routinely make bald-faced lies to Congress to protect their unconstitutionally rogue agency. Their massive surveillance state against innocent Americans and the corrupt cover-up are part of the statist rot that has been annihilating this country from within for many decades.

          As for revealing classified information concerning the threat from Iran, the leaks to the New York Times about the Stuxnet virus targeting Iranian uranium enrichment centrifuges http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/20... have been traced to the White House itself http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013...

          This administration has no more concern about the safety of Americans endangered by the release of military secrets than the threat of disease, gangsters, and terrorists flooding across an 'open border'. Classification of documents has long been used by government agencies to politically protect themselves. This isn't new and has been practiced at all degrees of corruption. Obama does what he wants then exploits the laws on classified documents to smear and persecute his political enemies who expose him the way the IRS smears and persecutes them. Kerry's cowardly, vicious taunts against Snowden in the cynical name of patriotism as he keeps Snowden trapped in Russia are unconscionable.
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    • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 5 months ago
      Hello johnpe1,
      If only the elected officials took their oath as seriously as you did. None of this would have occurred. It would also be good if they respected other laws like the whistle-blower laws so Snowden could have faith that going through proper channels would be efficacious and thereby alleviate your apprehensions. Unfortunately whistle-blowers are not protected. They are at great risk. See this story. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/polit...

      Respectfully,
      O.A.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
        my favorite line from this interview:
        "when gov't wants something bad, it gets it bad."

        As well, Susan Page just recently stepped up and claimed, in all her years as a journalist, this is the most secretive administration. I think she said "dangerous"
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      john, this sounds a little like a Nuremberg defense, which I know . Your patriotism is admirable, but this is why I spend a fair amount of time in here speaking against it. A flag and a nation are what they are representing and doing. Maybe this isn't the America you swore to protect. What then?
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      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 5 months ago
        K, I have had the tables turned on me, or faced
        bait-and-switch actions, more often than I can
        recount. one of my life goals is to present *none*
        of that to others, in an effort to slow down its
        progression. . and it is growing.

        I know that the nation has turned. but I have not.

        the news which ewv brought out is more than
        helpful to me -- it tells me that some care has
        been taken in this Snowden activity, and O.A.
        added more with the U.S.A.Today article. I want
        to thank you and them for the help!

        I just wish that Snowden had not been required
        to leave his country behind, in order to help to save
        it from itself. it's like me and my divorce. I was
        roundly condemned for initiating it, but my wife
        was not strong enough to do so. she was strong,
        but not *that* strong. and I am not welcome
        in that part of the country, ever again. and I own
        land out there. -- j

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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          yes, what OA said. I draw distinctions between what wiki-leaks has done and Snowden. For one, some of the wiki-leak documents included names of people and locations of operations which put soldiers at risk. If you listen to the interview, Snowden didn't agree to everything the journalists chose to expose. But he said over and over that it wan't his role to decide. As a condition for the reporting, Snowden made clear, the journalists were to go to the government and make sure that the information was vetted before they published it, as a further fail safe to those concerns of harming people in the field. He said that the journalists respected the govt's wishes in most of the cases. Our media, if they are doing their job, should act as a balance to power, not a mouthpiece for it. Brave journalists, including Greenwald are doing that. I encourage you to look into some of the reporting being down at Boiling Frog. Whistleblowers are very important to govt over-reach and corruption (the spy-terrorist kind) from with-in.
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        • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 5 months ago
          Hello again johnpe1,
          I can tell you are of good character. I am sorry to hear of the injustice you have suffered. It is sad to see how much injustice authorities are willing to perpetrate on all of us.
          Thank you for your service.
          Respectfully,
          O.A.
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