AS Part 3, Chapter 3 for our discussion

Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 6 months ago to Philosophy
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I was reading this for my AS book club this Sunday and it struck me, how many of us are accepting what Hank accepted? Hank is talking to Dagny after her interview with Scudder.
“Let me finish, dearest. I want you to know how fully I know what I am saying. I, who thought that I was fighting them. I had accepted the worst of our enemies' creed – and that is what I've paid for ever since, as I am paying now and as I must. I had accepted the one tenet by which they destroy a man before he's started, the killer-tenet: the breach between his mind and body. I had accepted it like most of their victims, not knowing it, not knowing even that the issue existed. I rebelled against their creed of human impotence and I took pride in my ability to think, to act, to work for the satisfaction of my desires. But I did not know that this was virtue. I never identified it as a moral value, as the highest of moral values, to be defended above one's life, because it's that which makes life possible. And I accepted punishment for it, punishment for virtue at the hands of the arrogant evil, made arrogant solely by my ignorance and my submission.

“I accepted their insults, their frauds, their extortions. I thought I could afford to ignore them-all those impotent mystics who prattle about their souls and are unable to build a roof over their heads. I thought that the world was mine, and those jabbering incompetents were no threat to my strength. I could not understand why I kept losing every battle. I did not know that the force unleashed against me was my own. While I was busy conquering matter, I had surrendered to them the realm of the mind, of thought, of principle, of law, of values, of morality. I had accepted, unwittingly and by default the tenet that ideas were of no consequence to one's existence, to one's work, to reality, to this earth-as if ideas were not the providence of reason, but of that mystic faith which I despised. This was all they wanted me to concede. It was enough. I had surrendered that which all of their claptrap is designed to subvert and to destroy: man's reason. No, they were not able to deal with matter, to produce abundance, to control this earth. They did not have to. They controlled me.

“I, who knew that wealth is only a means to an end, created the means and let them prescribe my ends. I, who took pride in my ability to achieve the satisfaction of my desires, let them prescribe the code of values by which I judges my desires. I, who shaped matter to serve my purpose, was left with a pile of steel and gold, but with my every purpose defeated, my every desire betrayed, my every attempt at happiness frustrated.

“I had cut myself in two, as the mystics preached, and I ran my business by one code of rules, but my own life by another. I rebelled against the looter's attempt to set the price and value of my steel-but I let them set the moral values of my life. I rebelled against demands for an unearned wealth-but I thought it was my duty to grant unearned love to a wife I despised, and unearned respect to a mother who hated me, and unearned support to a brother who plotted for my destruction. I rebelled against undeserved financial injury-but I accepted a life of undeserved pain. I rebelled against the doctrine that my productive ability was guilt-but I accepted, as guilt, my capacity for happiness. I rebelled against the creed that virtue is some disembodied unknowable of the spirit-but I damned you, you, my dearest one, for the desire of your body and mine. But if the body is evil, then so are those who provide the means of its survival, so is material wealth and those who produce it-and if moral values are set in contradiction to our physical existence, then it's right that rewards should be unearned, that virtue should consist of the undone, that there should be no tie between achievement and profit, that the inferior animals who're able to produce should serve those superior beings whose superiority in spirit consists of incompetence in the flesh.



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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 6 months ago
    Duty and undeserved respect are two big ones for me. We are frustrated with Hank 's decisions regarding his family but give him a pass on his lobbyist. The refusal of us to see a 40% tax rate as anything other than slavery. Slavery should be at the top of our list - but instead we focus on immigration. We are more focused on cronyism and dociley submit to TSA. We call Snowden a criminal and do not demand the abolishment of the NSA. We are vocal about Common Core but keep our children in public school systems. We make practical decisions daily in our life and avoid the opportunities to put our life philosophy to political practice. Putting our name to our words and standing by them.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 6 months ago
    Hi Pirate,

    First of all I think you will find that the mind body dichotomy is a religious concept. The most extreme form being that our spirit (mind) lives on forever and the body is temporary. Also our body is evil (dirty, corrupt) but our spirit is pure and free. This has an analogy to Plato’s perfect forms. Plato says there is a reality that has perfect forms and we only perceive a weak facsimile of these perfect forms. Thus for red to exist there must be a perfect or ideal red somewhere. Our physical form cannot perceive these ideal forms but our souls somehow know them according to Plato. Thus are soul is the ideal form of us and the body is a bad facsimile. Regressivism is actually built on a foundation to save religion from science (logic and evidence) and has perpetuated the mind body dichotomy. Note the link between Plato, religion, and regressivism.
    Yes, I think we are often guilty of this also. One version is to ignore the battle of ideas, saying they and their proponents are impotent. We marvel in our ability to make things, but ignore the battle of ideas. I think our obsession with the 2nd amendment sometime takes this form. As long as I have my gun I control the ‘real’ world, while ignoring that they just stole your property without raising a finger by changing the title. I ignored the initial rumblings of the anti-patent debate. I was busy raising a family, busy taking care of clients and could not take the time to address these issues, despite Kaila pushing me to do so.
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  • Posted by $ 9 years, 6 months ago
    There is so much more in Hanks talk with Dagny that I found valuable, but I was not sure it would fit on the page.

    I think Hank is talking about the sanction of the victim and how he bought the program without realizing it. How may of us have done the same? Are continuing to do the same? How did reading this part effect you or someone you know? Do you agree with Hank or not. Let's discuss these ideas?
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 6 months ago
      I think this covers a lot of disconnects we are conditioned to blindly accept and rarely question and are made to feel guilty if we do question them. Welfare, food stamps, drug addicts...surely we should want to help ANY one who "NEEDS" "help", right? I once said in a group of people who were discussing the act of 'random kindness' and walking up and giving a homeless person some cash. I asked, "How do you even know that person is worthy of charity when you know nothing about them?" Several people at once said, "Everyone is worthy of charity!", or "Who isn't worthy of charity??" I suddenly became the heartless, cold person in the room that had to defend their question... it was also at that moment I realized who I was in a room with. It's a form of brainwashing that starts very young... you must give what you earn to those who have less...just,...because!
      When I was working with a kindergarten groups I tried to counter this way of thinking.. One conversation comes to mind. Last year I was working with a group and a 6 year old boy kept giving the boy next to him the answers to the questions I was asking. I finally said, "Sometimes when you think you're helping someone, what you're actually doing is helping them to be lazy....they just wait for YOU to give them the answers instead of thinking for themselves." And I swear that 6 year old had a light bulb on his head that lit up. His eyes got wide and he said, "Wow, 'sometimes when you think you're helping someone you're actually not helping them'. I never thought of that before." (He was a bright boy, I swear that was his exact quote..I was so excited he understood it so quickly...and the others heard it too.) :) It's moments like that that I miss about being in a school all day. Few and far between.
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      • Posted by kathywiso 9 years, 6 months ago
        I totally agree. Hank had a lightbulb go off after years of accepting the unacceptable. It is easy to do, if you want to fit in. He realized he treated his business as he should have treated every part of his life. his business was the only place he found people who thought and worked like he did. That is where he found people to look up to, to have reasonable discussions..Dagny, Ken Dannegar, Ellis Wyatt...who else did he have the opportunity to talk with that he had a mutual respect for. That's what he had at work, then he goes home to the exact opposite, Lillian, his mother, his brother, who for his whole life told him he was worth nothing, a constant put down. His mother was as evil as they get. I wonder how Hank had the mentality after being raised as he was, to grasp the principles of hard work and reward. They rode on his back and until it was explained to him, he bought it, allowed them to ride on his hard work. I am glad that he finally opened his eyes to the truth.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 6 months ago
    Hello RMP,
    Great thread. Some excellent comments. Yes, the sanction of the victim... We are all conditioned to run on the treadmill. At some point we all must step to the side. If I could, I would stop every bit of my contributions towards the demands made for the unearned. I would give freely to those I value, not the arbitrary whims of others. I have done what I can to reduce what the takers can get, but I have good, loyal people (makers) that rely upon me for sustenance They offer fair trade -value for value. They are the kind I would take with me to a real Gulch.
    Regards,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 6 months ago

    My failing is the other side of the equation, the material comforts. Very little makes me happy. I mean that both ways: few material things bring me pleasure; and it takes only a meager materiality to make me happy.

    I do not see the point in fancy clothes, or a new car. I do not enjoy food. I do not like being hungry, but I am satisfied with nutrition on its own merits, even if it is not braised in rosemary hollandaise -- in fact, especially not if it is ruined like that. I do not eat "courses". I eat one thing. Then I eat another later. I do not see the point in stuffing yourself with a mishmash of starches and sugars. But I see clothing the same way: wool slacks, cotton shirts. I just retired a suit after 20 years. My best buy was a Harris tweed sport coat nearly new from Second Time Around. My shoes are RedWings that I bought for patrols. They polish up nice, have steel toes, and look like Doc Martins. I have one pair. I walked holes in my tennis shoes last year. I still wear them - it does not rain much here, so It does not matter. I do treat myself to new Dr. Scholes' inserts often. But I do a lot of walking.

    My wife and I share a car. Lately, some days, I walk three or four miles into work and back to meet her on the street for the long ride home. I have always enjoyed walking. No one bothers me. I can be alone with my thoughts.

    Rand's point in the Rearden Sex Soliloquy is that material pleasures are highly consequential. I do have my pleasures. On my desk, I have three old coffee cups with pens and pencils sorted by type and function. Of course, I am on a computer. I bought my MacBook in 2009. I also had a PC, but when Windows went out of support, I downloaded the disk and turned the machine over for destruction.

    When my phone battery died this spring, I bought an iPhone, but I have no apps on it. The two best features are the camera and the compass. It sucks as a phone; and it isn't that great at messaging. And for that matter, I sometimes doubt the compass when I calibrate it against the sun and stars. As a pilot (see below), I know better than to trust magnetic directions.

    I did enjoy flying. You spend as much time or more in flight preparation as you do in the cockpit. I had fun doing that, as well, but more fun being up in the air of course. But it got expensive as the economy worsened and work was hard to find. Then, I lost my medical certificate, so I quit flying. That was ten years ago.

    Last year, we spent about $100 playing Dungeons and Dragons once a week for six months. Right now, we are building electronics kits. We spend an hour or so at the work bench once or twice a week. I am pretty sure that my 40-year old Bell and Howell multi-meter needs to be replaced.

    On the upside, because I am working on a project for the Texas Military Department, I was able to pay a librarian to do some research for me for an article that I am writing to appear in February 2015 on the private money issued by the Central Mine of Eagle Harbor, Michigan.
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