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Bullshit!: Part One of Two: College

Posted by khalling 9 years, 5 months ago to Education
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if you can't take colorful language, probably you shouldn't watch this. Lots of good stuff in this episode considering the recent discussions in the Gulch

SOURCE URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUDAxWlNrQ4


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  • 16
    Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
    I knew that sooner or later I would have to defend the university system (at least partially) against the overwhelming majority of Gulchers, but the last couple of weeks has been kind of overwhelming in that respect. At my university, students get at least their money's worth from me and my colleagues, and we are glad to exchange value for value.

    Please pardon me for not responding more frequently. Providing value for my students takes a lot of time. My Gulch activity will be primarily in the summer time, almost like going to Atlantis for a month in Atlas Shrugged. Very recently my parents have both gone downhill very quickly. I had to take power of attorney, and so my "free time" is pretty much gone. Thanks in advance to any of you for your concern.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      wow j. thoughts are with you on the parent front. Been there and still am. Of course you are a great prof. There are hundreds of them. and we had been following FIT's success and business/education model for quite awhile before we met you-they stand out.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
        Your parents have been in my thoughts as well, k. FIT is a strange place by academic standards, but we do our best to follow Gulch values. We have been rewarded for that.
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        • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 5 months ago
          I saw a Professor Hakeem Oluseyi (astrophysics) on a discovery channel? show a few days ago, I immediately thought of you and wondered if you knew him since they said he was a Prof. at your university. Small world...
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
            Dr. Oluseyi is teaching my daughter Physics 1 this term. During his first year here, he helped teach a couple of labs that I now teach for a nanotechnology lab course for freshmen. Is it Discovery Channel or Science Channel?
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            • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
              I think it would be so enjoyable to have your daughter on your campus. Is she living on campus or at home? It is the way of the world, but I miss my kids. That your daughter is not far away at school is a big help during this trying period. The crisis period resolves and you can't control everything. Keep that in mind. As to mortality, I have no doubt you are creating a brilliant intellectual legacy.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
                She lives on campus, but comes home more on weekends than most students. I see her about as much as I used to, but my wife and other daughter only see her a day or two every couple of weeks.

                We'll get through the crisis, just like you did recently.
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    • Posted by richrobinson 9 years, 5 months ago
      Thoughts are with you Jb. I thought the best advice in this video was at the end. A student should know why they are going to a college or university. I went to a small business college near home because I felt it would help me in running our family business. If a student is going just to make more money then they most likely will be disappointed. One point that I thought was unfair was showing all the great names who didn't go to college. Back in their day, Lincoln for example, you could self teach and practice law. That is no longer the case.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
        Thanks, Rich. If you are going to college to get a job solely for the money, then that job won't last long. To make it a fulfilling career instead of a job, you must have the passion that AR's heroes did. The biggest reason for college is the increased diversity of fields that one can go into now. When Lincoln was president, my field of chemical engineering did not exist. John Rockefeller and his Standard Oil Company invented that field. My other areas (materials science, biomedical engineering, and nanotechnology) are such recent inventions that there is a 25% content increase in those fields every couple of years. They require expertise in a number of different areas, rather than the single discipline problems of the 20th century.
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    • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 5 months ago
      Hello jbrenner,
      I am sure there are quite a few exceptions to the general perceptions. Generalizations can sometimes do an injustice to the innocent. I have no doubt about the integrity of the institution you work at. I hear good things about several universities, like Hillsdale etc. As is typical, bad news gets the headlines...

      Sorry about the news of your parents condition. I was wondering why we have heard less from you of late. You were missed.
      Best wishes,
      O.A.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
        Thanks, O.A. I am busy with my "shrug job". As "shrug jobs" go, it's as good as I could ever hope for.

        My mom broke her hip and two neck bones. Dad has virtually no short term memory left. In 2.5 months, he went from early-stage Alzheimer's to late-stage, just like his dad did 30 years ago. I am considering changing my Gulch name to either Alzheimer or NoMindLeft. My parents certainly have renewed interest in a couple of projects that had ended a couple of years ago when the grad students working on them graduated.
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        • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 5 months ago
          My maternal Grandmother suffered with Alzheimers. She lived for about seven years after she could no longer recognize me, or anyone in the family... The conditions she lived for those years in a home were an indignity she would not have wanted to bear and the distress on the family was an ongoing torment... terrible way to go. We must find a cure. Hopefully your mom can mend and carry on.
          Strength and best wishes for all concerned,
          O.A.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
            My grandfather couldn't recognize family members by the end either, even my cousin who saw him daily. You have my condolences on your grandmother. I would like to know what AR said or thought about Alzheimer's.
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            • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 5 months ago
              It has been many, many years now since she passed, but I still remember and can sympathize. It was difficult. She was my last living grand parent at the time. My father passing from stroke (also some time ago) was much the same as he had no cognizance for several months. The time frame of suffering was less for him, but the loss for me at least as painful.
              If there is anything I can do... At this point all I can think of is to offer assurance that though difficult, one can carry on one day at a time.
              Best of luck on your research and your Mother's rehab.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
            Mom is getting better. She was in a chair for 2 hours yesterday. Until five days ago, she had been bed 24-7 for a week. She has a 6-8 month rehab, which is a long time for an 82 year old.

            As for Alzheimer's disease, I had a project that ended a couple of years ago. The grad student had a lot of good data on how materials self-assemble / aggregate, including chicken egg lysozyme, which an earlier grad student of mine had shown was a really good model of amyloid beta protein misfolding.

            I have a pretty poor grad student finishing up a thorough analysis of the protein misfolding literature related to Alzheimer's. In fact, I was editing that chapter of his thesis yesterday. In some respects, I feel like I am writing much of it, but I need to get a couple of papers out on this to get promoted.
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            • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 5 months ago
              Hang In, Dr. Jim;;; we are with you. my wife and I
              lost her father a few years ago to Alzheimer's and
              complications from a stroke, and it is no fun. -- j

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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
                I know that Alzheimer's is no fun. What is scary is that my dad is exhibiting exactly the same symptoms his dad did 30 years ago - and to think I am next.
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                • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 5 months ago
                  suggestion, sir -- recordings for those whom you love,
                  done in private, stashed away, just 'cuz. I treasure
                  a tape from my dad, recorded in ~1990, before he
                  died in '91....... -- j

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    • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 5 months ago
      Best wishes as you work through the issues with your parents. And thank you for teaching decent values at the university you are at. It is great to know there are some good schools but I think they are few and far between
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  • 14
    Posted by jimjamesjames 9 years, 5 months ago
    It took me 11 years to get my degree in economics. I became a stockbroker. Hated screwing people for money, so I quit. Became a court reporter (barely) taking enough time to have finished law school. Didn't like it. Move to Wyoming in '78, got a job teaching at a small commnuity college where I was told I would need an advanced degree if I was to stay in education. Got my Masters at BYU during that time, then was let go. Got a job driving tankers in the gas fields during that "energy crisis," saved a ton and went to the U of Wyoming to get my Doctorate where my "part time" job was driving trucks. On graduation, got hired by the State of Wyoming (voc rehab, then Director of Vocational Development at the State Hospital (mental), then Family Services doing child abuse investigations. After 20 years with the State, I was making $43,000 a year. "Retired" and started driving in the gas fields again and averaged $168,000 a year (100 hours a week) for nearly 4 years. Summary: virtually everything I have, including most of my advanced education is due to trucking.

    My conclusion on today's higher education: it is not designed to teach you to think, be independent, to grow personally, it is designed to get you to conform.
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    • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 5 months ago
      100 hours a week? How did you manage your DOTs?
      I agree with you, btw.
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      • Posted by jimjamesjames 9 years, 5 months ago
        No DOTs for the gasfields at that time, so much of the mileage was off road. Last year of driving we had to start that crap and it was "creative writing" at the end of the day.....
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      • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 5 months ago
        He cheated! That's why their called Swindle Sheets. And many employers place production before the risk of fines, not caring about any risk of life.
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        • Posted by jimjamesjames 9 years, 5 months ago
          Actually, the cute little blond that owned the company said she would pay the fines for us for the first six months until we learned the "tricks." She never did have to pay any by the time the gas prices dropped to the $3 range and the lease holders quit drilling.
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          • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 5 months ago
            Yea, but that's because the feds haven't figured our how to get into the Dakotas without going through Red Bud Reservation and they all want to keep their hair.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
              I do not understand what any of this means or the implications. Can someone sum this up for me in lay terms?
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              • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 5 months ago
                Driver’s hours. That’s what I was asking about. Drivers of all kinds(taxi, tour buses, gas trucks, etc.) have to keep a daily record of every hour they are on the road. The idea is they have to schedule ‘rest’ somewhere in their schedule. if they are driving too many back-to-back schedules, or driving twelve and fourteen hour days, when they hit a certain number of hours they have to take a day or two off just to comply with the laws of how many hours driven within a certain time period.. It’s a safety thing.


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                • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
                  it's nanny BS
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                  • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 5 months ago
                    I don’t know about being forced to sleep-in rigs with sleepers...being behind the wheel too long makes everyone loopy.
                    I remember in the late-seventies before mandatory drug-testing truck drivers were often on uppers.
                    It is very tempting to lie, because the money can be very good, but we don’t have the type of crashes that we use to get a few decades ago. I remember one summer the beltway around Washington was shutdown like every other day for some serious trucking accident.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
                      now mimi, you'd be the first one to ask for some factual stats on your assertion. drinking lots of coffee is an upper which can impair . I've looked up before accident stats as a whole and there is no correlation between giving out more traffic tickets and reduction in accidents. The ICC regulated railroads almost out of existence, which is why we had all these truckers on the road. Then in the 80s Reagan de-regulated somewhat and the trucking industry did better, but if you look at the total sum of all this regulation, what it's done has been to make us less safe and stifled inventions that would have made us even more safe.
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                      • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 5 months ago
                        You got me, kh. i can’t provide facts about the accidents that occurred that summer without digging into the Washington Post archives for a fee, (a bit too lazy and broke for that one), and my comments on uppers was based on past personal experience with truckers. So that comment can be written off as anecdotal fallacy or something.

                        Want to play soccer?
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              • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 5 months ago
                OK KHA, truckers have federal regulations that are pretty restrictive, way more than can be explained here. And many drivers and companies cheat. In NJ or CA they'd get shut down, in the Bad Lands they'd get a medal.
                Now remember what happened when BLM tried to shoot it out with the rancher in Nevada. Well the Dakota, Montana & Wyoming 'Bad lands' are twice or three times as bad. That's why the Bikers go to Sturgis. The FBI and their HRT got chased off the Rose Bud Reservation when they went after Russell Meeks of AIM, and the Dakota National Guard, many of whom are Sioux, made an obscene suggestion when asked (Meeks gave himself up and I think, but I may be wrong, Dr. Alan M. Dershowitz got him off on time served. .
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                • Posted by jimjamesjames 9 years, 5 months ago
                  KHA, the "rules" for truckers have increased for no damn reason other than the feds controlling everything. When I had to start keeping a log book, after driving as much as I wanted, when I wanted, where I wanted to get the fluids hauled (by the way, I figured that the average speed in the gas fields was 46 mph over a 13,000 mile stretch. Most hauls were less than 20 miles) we were restricted to 10 hours per day, then a mandatory 8 hours IN THE SLEEPER! They really expected us to climb in the sleeper and not get out for anything for 8 straight hours. Absurd. We finally got an unofficial "clearance" that if our log books showed we spent 8 hours, out of 24, "sleeping," we were good. Many times, that "sleep" took place on a drilling location, waiting for a load, so we were getting paid for the "sleep." In short, creative writing and, in reality, very little of our routine changed.
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    • Posted by helmsman5 9 years, 5 months ago
      Thanks for your clear and compelling story! I think your conclusion is correct for ALL public education btw. Notice how business and entrepreneurs are the evil villains in almost every academic story.. critical thinking and independence are the antithesis of the collective.
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  • Posted by $ arthuroslund 9 years, 5 months ago
    Interest rates are only a small part of the problem with college graduates being burdened with huge debt. The Colleges and Universities are rolling in money coming in from student loans. The schools profit and the students accumulate debt. It is a very cynical racket and administrators are easily able to pull it off because many people feel a need to get a higher education. The money from student loans keeps rolling in. Like the op-ed above, the schools are using the fallacy of changing the subject and attacking the person. Instead of addressing the issue of high costs, they change the subject to interest rates and attack Republicans as being uncaring with no empathy for the students. In fact, it is the Democrats who cynically exploit their rather ignorant and gullible constituency. The high fees paid by the universities to politicians for speaking are just a sneaky way of contributing to political campaigns. If there were no government guaranteed student loans, schools would be forced to compete for tuition money by cutting costs and lowering fees. Students and parents would be encouraged to be more frugal.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
      I agree with most of what you say. At Florida Tech, we are just plain different. To provide what the students and parents pay for, it costs about $33 K per year + $15 K for room and board if the students so choose. If someone pays appreciably less than that, then they are getting subsidized through state taxes or property taxes or they are not having their classes taught by Ph.D. faculty (i.e. most faculty at community colleges). I agree with your comments regarding politics and frugality.
      One thing I particularly detest here in Florida is how many of the state senators and representatives (particularly the Republicans) get themselves appointed as part-time adjunct faculty at the state universities and community colleges for when they are not doing government business. Needless to say, now I am forced to subsidize my competition!

      Just to be clear, I never vote for Democrats, but more often vote for libertarians or conservatives. In Florida 90% of the elected Republicans are RINOs.

      Most people don't realize what they are buying when they choose a university. Almost everyone is buying an undergraduate degree, whereas at most major universities (not Florida Tech), the emphasis is on research because more money comes in that way. National rankings are based much more on the quality of research and graduate education, so people are buying something other than what they think they are buying. Some places like Florida Tech will tell you that. I provide High Tech with a Human Touch, primarily at the undergraduate level. Yes, we benefit from the student loans, but we give value for value.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 5 months ago
        "Most people don't realize what they are buying when they choose a university."
        My comments about being akin to a racket are more the perception that college is just what you do after high school, with no regard to price or what you get. If people look at the price and what they get, I'm fine with that, even if they just want to party. My problem is with consumers rightly deciding things like education, getting married, having a baby are important and then turning off their brains and writing a blank check.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
        I don't have the financials in front of me, but I bet I could take a red pen and....$33K a year is competitive with other private schools, but I still say that is very high. I'd be curious alone to know the administrative percentage of the annual budget. I also wonder what the average class size is. Students are getting exposure to lots of talent, but I question it needs to cost that much. If those student loans didn't exist or were severely curbed, I bet lots of extraneous costs would be gone overnight if the university was running a good business model. It's somewhat difficult to discuss because we aren't working with the full information, but any reasonable person could look at any big state school and ask-do you need all those buildings? Is it worth it to provide this or that degree? Is tenure a reasonable concept?
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
          Tenure is an unreasonable concept, and one of the ways that FIT is different is the lack of a tenure system. That being said, we have lower turnover than tenure-granting institutions.

          When I got here, the number of administrators was a lot lower than it is now. I think we have about 2000 employees on campus, of which about 350 are faculty. I would estimate that the ratio of administrators to faculty has doubled in my 16+ years, mostly to comply with lots of new government regulations. However, much of the increase is in our recruiting and fundraising efforts, both of which have more than recouped their costs.

          We have a big online program at our off-campus sites (mostly military bases). I have no idea how many people are at those sites.

          We run a pretty tight ship financially. The faculty would tell you pretty much unanimously that we would benefit substantially from at least one more building for experimental research. Space is pretty cramped. Part of the problem is that zoning laws have changed to eliminate construction of very tall buildings (due to hurricane risk). We have the tallest building in the county except for the Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral. It was built prior to the zoning changes.

          Class size is typically 30-50. No class is allowed to be over 60 except for one of mine. I got an exemption after a few teaching awards because I teach the same students in a companion lab course. If we were to get much larger than that, we couldn't honor the "human touch" part of our motto and be sufficiently different from the state university factories to justify the additional cost.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
            excellent points. You say you need a new research facility. what other buildings on campus seem under-purposed? I am not suggesting that how it's outfitted is a significant cost in science research. but brick and mortar is expensive. kids can learn in houses :)
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
              To be honest, the other buildings on campus are well utilized. If someone doesn't bring in research $, that person loses space. I can't get on campus space for review sessions before 8 PM. The only major improvement we could make with regard to space utilization is in the summertime. We're working on that.

              Brick and mortar is expensive. There is a lot of competition for first-year courses with community colleges and online programs. While we have to offer those courses, we get a lot of transfer students who have already taken those courses at much lower cost before coming to FIT.
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              • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
                as it should be. good points. but admin % what is that at FIT? I should add, a close friend of mine is a racehorse in bringing in private university donors for a top flight private college. I don't know what you call that. she and I have vigorous discussions.:) so I am well aware
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
                  I am not sure what percentage administration is exactly, but there are almost as many administrators as faculty. Some wear two hats, but there are a lot of non-academic administrators.

                  I should have your friend contact me and our chief development officer. Most universities call their fundraising arm either "Development" or "Advancement". We have a pretty small endowment because of our youth, but it is increasing rapidly.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 5 months ago
        Regarding my paragraph regarding "most people don't realize what they are buying when they choose a university", I believe the Hallings would refer to this as "fraud in the inducement", if "inducement" is a word.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          it's a legal term. fraud in the inducement is simply about the promise to get you to pay. Your gullibility is not completely irrelevant, but it is about whether the purchaser relied on that (those) promises and the seller knows it's not really true
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 5 months ago
      Right on, Arthur. The costs of college have been driven up by the availability of money. The higher education loans that are outstanding exceeds one trillion dollars - a good portion of which isn't being paid back as many recent college grads have no or underpaying jobs. One of my 3 is in such a situation. At some point, I expect this debt to be "forgiven" since the fed gov't has assumed all education loan responsibility. Look for it some time in 2016.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 5 months ago
    This is an excellent post. Thank you.

    In order to perform the profession of Medical Technologist, you need to have a lot of information. One of the ways to acquire this info is to go to college; another is OJT, and read a lot on the side. There are a lot of professions that are in this same class - you can go to college and get the info (and some extraneous stuff) dumped into your head in a compressed format, or you can work your way up through the profession (in states that do not require a license) and learn it on your own. College is worthwhile in such cases.

    But. When I was at college, I did not give a hoot about the 'culture' of the college: I went to school, went to class and came home again. What the excellent Penn and Teller video is about is the culture of colleges, not whether or not they teach calculus. From people of my own age group and younger, it seems to me that college is regarded as a social venue rather than a place to learn.

    My heartfelt sympathies to you, jbrenner. That is a tough place to be in. For your dad, the best that can be hoped is that once in a while a cheerful 'stranger' will visit and chat with him and make him laugh. I am glad your mother is on the mend and is able to sit for even a few hours per day.

    If 'education' is what people are concerned about, then why are there not really hard tests that use secure identification procedures: If you pass the test, you have the degree, irrespective if you have ever crossed the threshold of a school/college or not? In an age where a lot of information is available online, perhaps this is the 'competitive' element that is needed to drive colleges back towards being institutions of learning.

    Jan
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    • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 5 months ago
      "why are there not really hard tests that use secure identification procedures: If you pass the test, you have the degree, irrespective if you have ever crossed the threshold of a school/college or not"

      I love this idea! I've heard MIT has all their classes online free. And there are always books, the internet, apprenticeships, and on-the-job training. It's the knowledge that's important, not where an individual received it.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 5 months ago
      There's no need to be "competitive" as there's a seemingly limitless supply of customers. More and more they are coming from ill prepared and low probability of succeeding participants, all of whom either get loans, or worse - scholarships - which are then unable to be recouped.

      Why do I consider scholarships even worse than loans? They are cost shifting, pure and simple. I often lament that I don't have a problem with paying for my children to go to college, but I sure hate paying for the other children who are not my responsibility - and that's what scholarships actually are. There's a certain cost that every school has each year. That cost, if distributed equally across the student body would be X. Since a good portion of those students receive "scholarships" and thus a reduced bill, they pay X - Y. That Y cost must come from somewhere, and so the students not receiving scholarships (increasingly a smaller number) ends up with X + Y , and where those not receiving scholarships is smaller than those who are then they are actually paying some multiple of Y.

      FAFSA is a joke.
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  • Posted by XenokRoy 9 years, 5 months ago
    Cool new word. I am a Autodidact.

    This is simply to true. Even more so in the public school system. Political correctness is destroying us on so many fronts.

    Also so many people seem to need to understand the definition of diversity.

    dictonary.com

    Diversity
    noun, plural diversities.
    1. the state or fact of being diverse; difference; unlikeness:

    Diverse
    adjective
    1. of a different kind, form, character, etc.; unlike:

    Where in that definition does it say we must tolerate a difference that is destructive to ourselves? Where does it say we have to like someone who has a values opposed to our own? Where does it say we can sue because someone else says something about their preferences that we do not like? Where does it say that we cannot offend or be offended and still go on in our lives?

    I must miss understand that definition because it certainly seems it has a lot more to it than the dictionary says it does.

    To me Megan got it right. The exposure to others and others ideas is a good thing. Developing your own ideas and philosophy is a good thing. The issue is accepting or developing any particular philosophy is not viewed as being diverse, taking a position and standing by it is thought to be an error; perhaps this is the biggest error of all that is peddled in our TV shows, movies and at our public school and college classrooms.

    We should be exposing and challenging our kids and young people to develop and defend a point of view. To stand by a value system and learn of its worth by the fruits that value system produces. Constantly exposing themselves to other ideas and seeing if they fit into the value system they find to work. Its philosophical development and something we no longer value or teach.

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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 5 months ago
    Going to college has simply lost it's original meaning. It has become, instead, a rite of passage for certain people who can afford it. First of all, only 25-30% of those starting college, ever graduate. Then, when they do, many are ill equipped to get a job because they often know less than some of high school nerds. Technical schools and trade schools are the only ones in today's society make any sense for anyone who wants training for a future career. Most of the rest are participating in a very expensive social experience.
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 9 years, 5 months ago
    Freaking hilarious!
    I related (sadly and somewhat personally) to the misappropriation of the thought: "If you are different then you are a child and hence unable to handle your own life."
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  • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 9 years, 5 months ago
    This starts MUCH younger and I lived in hostile environments just trying to stay NEUTRAL, or letting my students express themselves according to their beliefs and interests.

    That was in ELEMENTARY school.
    Despite decades as an educator, there is a SET of reasons I home school my daughter.
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  • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 5 months ago
    Beauty, and the antithesis thereof is in the eye of the beholder, and many of them see monetary forms as the only measurement.
    But lets just say that you are interested in pure science and knowledge, where are the schools of hard knocks for those disciplines. How many of us would be dead if Jonas Salk had not graduated from NYU. How many would have gotten sick and possibly died if Louis Pasture hadn't graduated E'ccole de Paris.
    Sure, there have been many without degrees and education who've done well, the list presented by P&T is only a small start. But reality must enter the program because the odds of you or I being one of them tomorrow, is so far beyond binary odds (50:50) that it is ridiculous.
    Salient, statistically viable fact says that an individual who attends college will earn 25 percent more in a lifetime. A person who graduates will earn 33 to 45 percent more, and a person with an advanced degree will earn, depending 45-70 percent more than a high school graduate. Life is full of personal choices, we all have to make them.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      yes, but these stats do NOT include the cost of financing said education. find me an independent source for those stats as well. I'm not saying they don't exist, but everything I found on the numbers were generated by organizations with a vested interest in getting you to attend university. Your example of Salk is taken, but raised by many others who are as important or more important to our quality of life (Thomas Edison) who did not get a degree.
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      • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 5 months ago
        Well, you haven't looked too hard for those stats, try PEW or the Kennedy School of Government. And as far as Financing, you pay for everything, even the education gained on the street, is paid for with blood, sweat, and occasionally tears. Nothing, absolutely nothing is free, and those who believe that 'Free' Bravo Sierra and stuff like that are Obama Voters.
        Your references to Edison are, at best, uninformed, no colleges or universities offer a degree in Engineering in 1867 when Edison would have been 20, except West Point and that was Civil Engineering Degree. Rensselaer Polytechnic (RPI) and Cooper Union were both founded in the late 1820's, but they were 'Trade Schools' not degree granting universities. The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc. (ABET) did not grant accreditation to the first University, RPI until four years after Edison's birth. Further it is likely that Edison, was a hyper-intelligent individual, kids like Gates and some others who were among the many who were too smart to benefit from standard public education when special education for gifted kids didn't exist.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          On Edison, so what? genius who didn't go to college. if he had, quickly, he would have surpassed his professors. who should have paid whom? The point is revolutionary disruptors and geniuses, didn't seem to need college in many cases, and english lords just "learned" by taking a year on the continent. it is a rent seeking business for many degrees. For other degrees, it's completely valid. and guess what-the universities are ants treating those producers like aphids in the research biz. have you read Rand?
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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          "And as far as Financing, you pay for everything, even the education gained on the street, is paid for with blood, sweat, and occasionally tears. Nothing, absolutely nothing is free, and those who believe that 'Free' Bravo Sierra and stuff like that are Obama Voters." this is an excellent point.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 5 months ago
    I listened to the rest of it. The thrust of it is that colleges extol diversity but don't actually practice it. They made the diversity experts look asses, but it seemed like they chopped up their sentences, so they couldn't get a point across.

    I never saw this perversion of diversity when I was in school 20 years ago.

    I didn't get what Chomsky was getting at WRT home. Was he saying the whole campus is their home? Their dorm room/suite is their home. Then there are classrooms, labs, lounges, and "public" places. It almost seemed like Chomsky was expanding the notion of home, so that we're all roommates and have to get along and decide which posters, language, foods, etc are offensive. People sharing an apartment do have to agree on things or move out. But he sees the whole college that way. In other words, he's anti-diversity. I wish they had politely asked him if that's what he meant.

    I couldn't tell if the protestors were trying to silence the counter-protestor. I think it's a good idea for protestors and counter-protestors to be physically separated, just far enough to avoid a fight breaking out.

    I strongly agree with what he said at the end about going to college for something specific, even if you're going to take an easy major, hand out, and drink beer; at least admit that.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      I think it's possible that because you were an engineering student, you may have seen less of what the agitating professors do. I was in college 30 years ago, and it was everywhere. Not broiling like the late 60s but simmering under the surface of a prosperous and productive 80s. There was lots of resentment against capitalism and business. Professors were somehow pure because they weren't in business, and there was great antipathy for pro-business minded students. I had a sociology professor who wore a suit and Birkenstocks to class (even in winter). Sociology was required for my degree. Anyway, by the time he was done hammering away at the private sector, you were nervous to challenge his lectures, let alone write a paper asking questions I'm sure many of his students had that conflicted with his views. But you were paying for that class, so why would you risk a C or a D on your paper? It got so , for me, I just wanted to hurry up and get done with it all. Luckily in grad school, I had some great economic profs.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 5 months ago
        BTW, the most shocking part was Chomsky wanting to expand home to include a huge area. Might it eventually expand to the entire city, then state, and then country? We all have to agree, he says, on what's offensive, what words we etc, just residents of a household must agree on the rules of the home.

        If I'm right, he's being tricky. "Campus is their *home*," he says. At first that sounds nice. But it's not technically true, and it's the starting point in his argument that we all have to agree on things.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          well you live in Madison...I have "community garden nazis" to quote in your town. Chomsky is most definitely agenda and politically driven. He is a master at re-purposing words. You are making excellent points and picking up on important themes.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 5 months ago
        I had one professor who was Marxist, but she didn't carry on about or assign papers to evaluate it. At the time I thought no system, not Marxism or pure capitalism, will take society where we want to go, so we need to pick elements that work. I don't agree anymore with the premise that we should pick a *system* to take *society* where *we* want it to go. I thought differently 20 years ago. Being more anti-Marx now, I might have a harder time if I were in school.

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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          I was an independent when I was in college. I bought into the Reagan hate fest, but I hadn't articulated my foundational principles yet, nor did my parents encourage me to do such, nor did they. They were both teachers and republican voters, but were disillusioned with Nixon. I think since Nixon they voted democrat for presidents, and republican for governors. I always found that odd. I can't win in discussions with my family because it goes to emotions quickly. I am kinda a dutiful daughter. I'm sure you will all find that amusing. I do say my peace, sometimes it's as I'm clearing a table of dishes to take to the kitchen
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 5 months ago
    I watched the first few minuets. I agree with the education experts you can get connections, fun, a time to explore different things, and job skills at college, but college isn't the *only* place to get those thing. You could explore different jobs, for example, by working entry-level jobs in areas near what you're interested in. For example, you might sweep floors at radio studio or clean beakers at a company making chemicals just to be close to people doing the work to see if it looks like something you'd like to do. If yes, the company will often pay for part of the classes in addition to normal wages. With all that you can still arrange time to play with beerbongs, drugs, g/fs and b/fs, and so on, which are important too.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 5 months ago
    I agree. I have BS (as it turns out that is the only degree that is not BS) in economics from way back when, JD and Ph.D. Plus ATP (licensed airline transport pilot--bus driver in the air) and few other initials. The ones that are important had nothing to do with college. Thomas Sowell (who I think is great on economics and terrible on politics because he sides with the traditional conservatives most of the time) said he did not learn economics until years after being a Ph.D.

    Go FedEx and fight the bastards.
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  • Posted by jimslag 9 years, 5 months ago
    I did both, attended and dropped out. Either way works and if you do it right or at least, learn from your mistakes, like I did it, you progress to bigger and better things. I took each and every opportunity I got and some I made and improved my lot in life. I did not come from a money family, one that would provide for my every whim. I came from lower middle class and I am not rich monetarily but I lived a rich life. Recently I fell into the issue, one that everyone has, of the more money you make, them more money goes out, I am currently trying to rectify that. Lots of things to consider and all sorts of opportunities to try. I had a new one pop up, thanks to Dr. Brenner and I am considering it but I have to take everything else into that conversation.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 5 months ago
    I took away three things from that video I may like to apply to something later--
    !. myth ruling reality (as does Chairman Obola)
    2. cultural audit
    3. the altar of do not offend
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 5 months ago
    Love Penn and Teller. Amazing how far they come without adopting a a child from Africa and speaking out against corporations.

    Anyone else love the 90's movie "PC"

    Another great post.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 9 years, 5 months ago
    Pardon me for coming in late. Love Penn and Teller, how with humor and bombast they skewer bad ideas. Watching them is an education in itself. (I've met Teller at a Gathering for Gardner; he actually talks.)

    About "diversity"-- The concept represents a midpoint between polar extremes. It's the two-edged sword wielded by those who want their own ideas accepted when competing against others more firmly established. So in the name of diversity, under the protective umbrella of tolerance, they want to get a foothold in the culture... until, that is, they are established and feel their creeds threatened by opposing ideas. Then they'll be first to decry giving equal weight to other beliefs--in effect an antitrust maneuver. Here's an example:

    The Christian Homeschool Association of Pennsylvania runs an annual educational convention. Heaven help me, once I actually attended one of those to sell my (mathematics-based) puzzles. Their current prospectus includes these guidelines:

    "CHAP asks our vendors to review their materials for items which are restricted by CHAP or which might be offensive to our primarily Christian attendees. Please eliminate such items from your display. Examples of such items would include: stories or art work containing immodesty or occult material; New Age or overtly humanistic material: "Values Clarification" curriculum; "Multi-Cultural" curriculum (material which treats all cultures and religions as equal with Biblical values); fantasy role-playing games or curriculum; or any material that portrays the Bible as merely mythological, or Christianity as untrue or as one among many equal religions. Display and sales of vitamins, herbal supplements, essential oils, and other medically oriented products or services, or down-line or multi-level marketing ventures are prohibited."

    So these Christians are against humanism and against multi-culturalism. Hah! They see humanism as the camel's nose of atheism; they see multi-culturalism as giving equal recognition to other religions. Here, nakedly, we can see how ideas have a life of their own and hijack human emotions to grow their control. I find this a fascinating example of Darwinism in the realm of human software. Extrapolate to what philosophies teachers promote and what knowledge humans preserve. Then observe which belief systems have humans by the throat and drive humans to murder and mayhem in their defense.

    Under these dynamics, objectivity is a rare and beautiful thing, and itself in grave danger of being subverted with rationalizations. We do have one safeguard: Check the premises.
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