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Winery Closes Doors After State Fines Them Over Volunteers and Wine-Making Classes

Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago to Politics
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“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people.”
John Locke

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SOURCE URL: http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/westover-winery-fined-for-volunteers/


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  • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 7 months ago
    Unbelievable. Think of the reach of such a practice! I’m thinking about all the horse farms across the country that provide free lessons for a few in exchange for a lil mucking and grooming.
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    • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 9 years, 7 months ago
      I used to do exactly that when I was a kid. And I was an apprentice on a 100' schooner when I was 18! I learned how to sail, and had room and board, in exchange for my hard work. It was an invaluable learning experience for me.
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      • Posted by amhunt 9 years, 7 months ago
        What a great experience for you non-...!
        And it really does not matter if one is a child! Imagine all of the damage that is being done and is going to be done by this horrific thinking!
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    • Posted by Kova 9 years, 6 months ago
      Exactly! I would never have been able to afford my own horseback riding lessons--but working at a hobby farm for three hours every Friday from the age of ten allowed me to learn some basic dressage from a happy but overworked mother of four whose family was entirely uninterested in her horses....
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  • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 9 years, 7 months ago
    So mentoring would fall under this pathetic grasping for tax dollars, internships also. Only in for profit enterprises. Because we all know they take in vast amounts of income. Because they're in it for profit. So of course they must be filthy rich capitalists. Wow. The shackles are getting heavier. And where is the outrage against this? And it's not like indentured servitude where there is no choice in the matter. These volunteers CHOSE to give their time in an effort to learn from the winemakers. It was a quid pro quo in action. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement, and did not require ANY GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. I'm heartily glad to not live in CA, although CT isn't much better.
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  • Posted by Zero 9 years, 7 months ago
    Y'know, the real horror here is that those poor folks probably still owe that money.

    Such a small business was probably not incorporated.

    Those lousy b@st@rds not only closed a business, but quite possibly ruined two lives!


    Sooo many lives.

    Real People's Lives.


    I'm sorry, but, well...
    When is enough Enough?
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 7 months ago
    This is terrible! I hope that the vintners go to the Institute of Justice or a similar group to counter-sue the state. I have done volunteer work without pay a number of times in my life, in order to learn something about a craft: once at an orchid farm, once in an armory, various other venues as well. I know hundreds of people who are teaching and learning skills under similar circumstances - in California.

    I doubt that the volunteers thought they were being hired. The brewers I know do not imply that they will hire their apprentices, who are there to learn the secrets of brewing great beer, and already have day-jobs of their own.

    There is a thick web of volunteerism amongst practitioners of non-mainstream crafts and skills. If this despicable attempt by the State goes unopposed, it could have a devastating effect on the willingness of craft masters to share their expertise.

    Jan
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 7 months ago
    We closed a mail-order firm after the union wanted in. We only had 18 employees at that time and we looked over the rules of compliance the union showed us. If we complied. it would be the union running our business, not us. We went on to a different type of business that only needed three employees. That was when we were still a relatively free country.
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    • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 9 years, 7 months ago
      Wow, the collusion between unions and state treasury is revolting. I find it disturbing in the extreme that you had to completely change your business model, in order to keep it yours, and not let the unions get their hooks into it. The unions are so outdated, and they are desperate to recruit new members, (marks for their extortion), that they are becoming more and more bold in their scare tactics. I'm sorry that happened to you, but glad you are below their radar now.
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 9 years, 7 months ago
    Your time on Earth belongs to the State. That fellow who volunteered to learn wine-making was just being selfish and not thinking how he could help society. Marx would be proud. I'm rapidly losing hope we can destroy socialism in America without bloodshed.
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  • Posted by kathywiso 9 years, 7 months ago
    The state of California is insane. What part of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness does this fall under. I am so outraged over this... Directive 10-289 in real time. So, this company shrugs... Glad they did that.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      the official said "this is a very serious violation." they just don't care. Oh, and he said there should have been workman's comp. somebody said they should charge the "volunteers" so they are like students. there's probably some regulations about operating as a school too. the winery was their "hobby." they both have fulltime careers outside of the business, but they ran it for 20 years now. It has employees who are now out of work because of teh state's actions.
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      • Posted by kathywiso 9 years, 7 months ago
        But they DIDN'T charge them.. What is the next issue...volunteers for beach clean up should get paid and workman's comp...it just gets more absurd as each day passes... How much more will the people accept....uuggghhhh.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 7 months ago
    Unfortunately, fighting it would have easily bankrupted the little operation as well, but I was the victim of some dramatically over-reaching state bureaucrats. There isn't any "thought" going into that stuff, something flags and they throw the kitchen sink in response. I was once "fined" for unpaid back employment taxes from 2008-2009 for a 'staff' I had in Fresno, CA. I had closed that office in 2007, there was no 'staff'. I had to show up to the meeting, take pictures of the old office showing that some other company was operating there now, and payroll records and copies of the termination letters. I was like "duh, there's a recession going on ... I know the state employees are rather immune to that... " It was discharged rather quickly, but there is a lot of complexity to running a state of 40 million people and a government in the 360,000'ish range (leaner than the feds thankfully). They operate on databases and complaints, there isn't any "investigation" being done. Prove them otherwise and they go away quickly.

    I guess I'm a little surprised to see a winery in Contra Costa County... Contra Costa is East Bay Area... Oakland, Alameda, etc.. Not a lot of farmland there... not any at all. It would be a ¼ acre of grapes or something, probably about the size of the hobby farm I have in the backyard.

    My suspicion is that one of the "volunteers" reached out to the labor board complaining in hopes of getting a bunch of back-pay or something. Otherwise, there really isn't any way that anyone is going to 'detect' the ¼ acre of grapes and some hobby wines being made.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      I'm with you. I saw "volunteers" complaining on boards that they agree to volunteer, hoping that full time positions will come available. When they don't, well, they get pretty mad. The picture of the winery I saw attached to another article did show it surrounded by grapes. But they could be buying most of their grapes. The state official who was interviewed for the local paper said two things. 1. Those volunteers should have paid taxes 2. there should have been workman's comp. It's a dangerous industry. 3. the law does not provide that the state warn a business of this before they fine the business. There were dozens of other wineries doing the same thing, who abruptly stopped their programs. If the goal was ultimately to get more tax revenue, they have failed. The winery will lay off workers who may end up as state burdens. fail
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      • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 7 months ago
        I seriously doubt the state was worried about the taxes on a couple of people...we have millions of illegals here. It was more about the worker's comp, the need to clamp down on an industry that seemed to be abusing it, and I'm sure there were complaints. "Netting" $11,000 a year can actually be pretty substantial. If they "netted" $11,000 a year after paying salaries for the "paid" folks and owners of ridiculous amounts, while relying on free labor, it would be rather oppressive and the state would definitely step in to shut down the practice. There is the other angle to look at, that it disrupts the free market for the businesses that pay their workers and earn a profit - Gallo, all of Napa Valley, etc.

        I've known a few winery owners, all of them have been family-owned & run and the family members help out at harvest and maybe they have a few paid workers to tend to the grapes year-round. This would be the first I've heard of "volunteers". I agree, there were no-doubt some kind of promises made and probably not kept.

        I don't immediately jump to conclusions on this stuff when you only see part of the story, or a very small part of one side's view. I've seen some very unethical stuff in business, being an entrepreneur doesn't immediately make you ethical. It was more than likely a tax-shelter type business to pay for a multi-million dollar property and a lot of "promise" of help in the industry in exchange for free labor or something. No doubt, someone cried foul.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
          ah, a law and order guy. there could be something bigger-someone has a vendetta against them -maybe a larger competitor. your trust in government is not rational.
          Here is a reference to other wineries who use volunteers. It's a widely accepted practice in the industry.
          http://www.mercurynews.com/my-town/ci_26...
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          • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 7 months ago
            I'm not a law & order guy, I just know a lot of civil servants and I work in the defense contracting industry. Given the choice between "vast conspiracy" and "incompetence", anything involving civil servants is going to be incompetence.

            They did something to pop up on a radar screen, or pissed off some "volunteers". All businesses are required to have worker's compensation in California, my suspicion is that there was never a Worker's Comp policy in force for the business, and that has teeth, but is more work to go after, so they picked an easy one. Contra Costa county is filled with the leftist liberals of the Bay Area, I'm pretty sure it was one of the volunteers...

            They could have gotten around that quite easily by just being a non-profit, but generally that requires some programs for the public, charitable works, etc.. I really think it was a for-profit disguising in some way or doing something that threw up some flags.

            I see it like this... you can choose to live in the Wild West of Nevada, with no social services, people working 3 8-hour shifts in a row for 3 different casinos for 24 hour work days 7 days a week for $8 an hour, or you can pay some more taxes and live somewhere that the rules may be a little more oppressive.

            The business owner chose to live in California, and skirt the rules. Let's be honest, they had a winery in the San Francisco Bay Area where a 1 bedroom condo is going to be $500,000+. This isn't a few thousand square feet of play-dirt in Montana. It doesn't have much to do with an Atlas Shrugged type of thing, its about whether or not you have a legitimate business, or if its a paper-business so you can depreciate the property you live on to offset your normal income taxes (my suspicion). If its not a legitimate business, its income tax fraud and a bunch of other stuff. If you are going to take that approach, it has to be a legitimate business and do the Worker's Comp, the tax stamps in the form of a business license, and either do all the work yourself like a real entrepreneur or actually pay the workers. Another aspect in California is that interns, if not paid, can't do anything of material value to the business. If you have them out cold-calling door to door, you need to compensate them in some way. You can't have an unpaid intern digging a septic tank hole that you are going to charge $10,000 for. Why? Because why should someone be making material gain on labor and that 'labor' goes and gets welfare & Medi-Cal benefits. The assumption is that they are probably being paid... probably in cash/under the table. That would be hard to prove, so you take the easy approach. They had unpaid interns in a for-profit business, either fess-up to that, or prove you paid them (under the table) and go with a lot of tax-evasion charges.

            I'm sure the owner just filed a bankruptcy on the business, and will just re-open it with a new entity so they can depreciate their personal real estate more again, but will probably pay someone 8 hours a week or whatever for what legitimate work is needed, or do it themselves, or if the labor cost is higher than the tax write-off, just forget it.

            I'm sure the Lets Shrug types jump on the tax element, but taxes in California, despite having the higher end of income taxes, are otherwise pretty reasonable for real estate - its limited to 1% of the original purchase price of the property (annually) and it declines if the market value declines, but cannot ever go "up" in appreciation above the original purchase price. I don't think any other states have that protection, and most are going to be closer to 3% of the value per year... California has a large government, but we're also the 8th largest economy in the world and a little under 20% of the US population by ourselves.

            My last point, is that agriculture is serious business in California... its a $50 billion industry, and only behind high tech and probably entertainment/music/films in California for size. We grow the lion's share of produce for the United States, and virtually all of the fresh produce & vegetables and nuts. If you fly over California, you notice that not an inch of land is wasted, fly over Colorado and you struggle to find some land that is actually used. We're the largest wine producer in the world, and with that comes an oversight of (that) business that is probably pretty profound. You're also talking foodstuffs for human consumption... do you want the unpaid intern sanitizing the bottles you are going to drink out of? Do you want someone with a grudge and no income with access to the wine vats? Just saying... Anywhere else in the country it would seem like a very esoteric enterprise.... here, it's something that is actively-managed.

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            • Posted by $ CBJ 9 years, 7 months ago
              Gee, now I totally understand why people and businesses are migrating from other states to California in droves . :-)

              http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/...

              I can't wait to move from wild west Nevada to set up a business in civilized California so that I, too, will have the opportunity to be fined $115,000 for inadvertently violating a state law prohibiting voluntary exchange of labor for experience.

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              • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 7 months ago
                I didn't say I agreed with it... I'm stating the facts as they are. California has an awesome climate and very high incomes relative to the rest of the country, people (here) will continue to put up with it.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
              I 'm not sure if some of your points are relevant ie comparisons to Montana, Colorado and Nevada. Been to plenty of mom and pop wineries outside of Oakland and operations did not have significant numbers of employees. I can imagine trading my labor to gain a skill. I once wanted to volunteer time to build haybale houses. Why does the govt have to be a stake holder in that trade? The assets of the owner and the business are irrelevant to the trade. Your cynacism against companies is a tell for me that you want to avoid rational arguments against state over -reach by assuming the business owners are not behaving morally. Ok but that claim is more extraordinary than govt intrusion including signifigant "revenues " from fines.

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      • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 7 months ago
        They are much more interested in chasing people like Abe Allizadeh. The impact from that guy is far and wide, even my mother's neighbor in her condo in Minnesota was a victim, seems he was in the 'investor pool' and lost everything. There is always something more to these stories, in all likelihood, the non-payment of wages might have been just the easiest thing to prove to shut them down too. Again, you only see a small part of the story.

        http://www.sacbee.com/2014/03/04/6207610...
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 9 years, 7 months ago
    California is desperate for 2 things - Money and Control. They don't want private industry as their competition... which is why they pull stunts like this, charge abhorrent taxes and fees for those wanting to start and run a business ($800 a year to file as a corporation? Bonkers!!!) - they want ALL power and control and industry coming from their so-called benevolence.

    this will lead to one or more of 3 things - an underground economy (under-the-table businesses), black-market jobs, and a division of the state between the moocher and the producer.
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  • Posted by jerry1228 9 years, 7 months ago
    the California legislators are disparate for money now so they did this now. grass is being sold in Colorado for the same reason, it matters not that the auto accident rate has climbed. they just want the money. it is and always will be for the money where government is concerned. why any one stays in business in California is amazing to me.
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    • Posted by $ root1657 9 years, 7 months ago
      well in all fairness we thought when all the pot heads moved to Colorado that San Francisco would be empty, which might have been enough to shift CA red.

      Anyone want to donate to a program to give bulk bus rides to people in SF to get them to CO? :)
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  • Posted by amhunt 9 years, 7 months ago
    Isn't it interesting. No wages were paid. So there was no income. Hence no tax liability. It takes truly twisted minds to put forth the notion a tax is still somehow owed.
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  • Posted by $ root1657 9 years, 7 months ago
    So if the volunteers are relabeled students, and pay $1 for the winemaking lessons, problem solved. It becomes a jobs program and the left will love it, right? Oh, and the winery, being a supporter of the jobs program can offer a full tuition to these students, and take the $1 loss on their taxes. :)
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 7 months ago
    This is so unfortunate. So if they had organized as a non-profit and paid themselves a small salary, as a small church might do, it would have been okay? Or what if they bought some equipment and didn't make a profit?

    If they insist on such strict regulations, they should at least have give people a warning and a chance to make their operation legal. Otherwise it's just discouraging people from voluntarily serving one another.
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  • Posted by sfdi1947 9 years, 7 months ago
    What else would you expect in Moon Child Land? In the socialist land of Calipornia everything belongs to the state.
    Their all building a High Speed Passenger Railroad on our nickel in that bankrupt political rat hole.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 6 months ago
    Preposterous! So if you volunteer to mow your elderly neighbor's lawn you are making your neighbor into a criminal or a scofflaw? No doubt there was some arm twisting and pull from behind the scenes. A wine makers lobby?
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